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Oh these Artificially Extended modern games. If the movie were shorter than 10 minutes it could be rather entertaining, even though it doesn't seem to show any TAS-only tricks. Anyway, voted Meh.
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Well, according to old TASVideos rules precedents, a winner doesn't even have to list other participants if he really thinks that he could achieve the same result without them. But in a long shot, the collaborative atmosphere is better motivator than competitive one.
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Great job as always, MESHUGGAH. I think you may as well just go over current NES archive and beat half of movies.
But I agree it's still not a fact that this movie is actual theoretical limit for this game. The 21-frame rule in SMB1 has made many people assume this run is unbeatable, but then new glitches were found. So this 16-frame rule is not a barrier. For example, as far as I know, Zlomus was elaborating on resets usage (too bad he's disappeared somewhere).
Edit: just one note: I think I didn't like the absence of music in the run. At the very least, this "entertainment choice" was very dubious.
Holy shit, awesome! Actually, I was wondering where did this guy (Orange Claw Hammer) disappear in 2010. I can't believe he now manages to pull all these pixel-perfect tricks (especially Battleship double damage). This is incredible, why this run is not on SDA yet?
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feos wrote:
AnS would be happy
Hey, I'm still here' you know.
feos wrote:
It's funny how he once said that it would be cool if someone would strike in here and there and shave off a few more frames where traditional method didn't help.
I didn't say that you can't do incremental improvements with traditional method, it's just that they're naturally easier to do with nonlinear editing/auto-adjustment/lag log and stuff.
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Voted Meh. Good thing is, this movie is only half as painful to watch as currently published movie! Unfortunately, it would be illogic to replace normal speedrun with an IDDQD version.
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xxNKxx wrote:
In my preview, do you see have anything need optimize more than?
No, I haven't noticed anything obvious. At this point there's too many factors of optimality, so the level of optimization can only be evaluated by examining actual movie Input and testing various guesses, like: would it be better to collect 3 stars in stage 37 instead of "2 stars + grenade"? I hope you've tested all approaches.
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xxNKxx wrote:
Stage 37,38,40 are too poor
What do you mean? They look pretty good to me.
Remember that you have 30+ more stages to make, so it's inevitable that some stages will look less impressive than others. But even current movie is entertaining enough (although I liked your old ideas from previous movies too, maybe you should reimplement them in future stages). I suggest you to continue doing what you did there. So far Battle City is your best TAS.
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MURPHAGATOR, did you consider making a TAS for this game yourself? This way you're likely to learn even more about the game (which would help you to improve real-time record as well).
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The movie was way too long for such a bland game. I liked Adventure Island 4 for NES, which was a solid metroidvania, while this SNES game is more like an unpolished action-RPG of sorts. Unless some major glitches are found, this game doesn't look like a good TASing material. Voting No.
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AngerFist wrote:
It was probably related to fceux 2.1.5 works work winxp if I am not mistaken and 2.2.1 is for Win7?
All versions of FCEUX should work on XP and 7. It's just that 2.1.5 has many bugs.
Pasky13 wrote:
Would like to suggest adding a "browse here in hex editor" on the ram search results. I.e. searching for an address, highlighting it, and either right clicking (preferable) or clicking on a button that brings you to that address in the hex editor (or both :).
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Warp wrote:
However, what happens? All the members of the normal team get so sick that they cannot play, and have to be removed from the game. The all-powerful team then simply plays in an empty field by just kicking the ball constantly into the now-empty opposing goal, thousands of times. Certainly this would be a complete letdown, and not what one wanted to see.
Sure, so audience would vote No, and the movie would be rejected (or go to the Vault), while another movie where gods didn't play the sickness card would be accepted (to the Moons). Is there some problem I don't see?
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xxNKxx wrote:
AnS wrote:
I suggest to start from stage 35 and take 2nd loop, which is more action-packed.
I don't think so. When my tanks have 3 stars then it'll boring like this. Only faster, because it can respawn maximum with 6 tanks
So what? The speed of respawning is limited by "Respawn Delay" which is much longer in the 1st loop. So it will take about 30 minutes to complete stages 1-35, while you can complete stages 36-70 in 13-14 minutes.
Wait, do you want to make TAS for 1st loop (stages 1-35) instead of 2nd loop (36-70)? The 1st loop is going to take you almost twice longer, because Respawn Delay is much longer (it decreases by 4 frames per every stage), so the movie is certainly going to be boring. I suggest to start from stage 35 and take 2nd loop, which is more action-packed.
xxNKxx wrote:
Any ideas for better ?
Once you've created the fastest-possible completion of the level, try to add entertainment without losing speed. For example, shoot those walls if you wish, but make sure that you don't lose frames (compare the new frame count to the frame count of the fastest completion).
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xxNKxx wrote:
Yes I knew that trick movent. I did it when I make turn on way, that's why in stage 35 and 36 I can faster with example video. Just didn't make it at all
This is TAS. You must use the trick to its full potential, not only where it was easy to use. If you are not using this trick everywhere, your movie is suboptimal, and anyone can beat it by simply applying this trick.
xxNKxx wrote:
But if make this trick, you must note have a dead frame, it make tanks can't move or shoot
You can't move tanks every fourth frame, but you can shoot at any frame.
Here is useful Lua script.
If you don't know how to use Lua scripts, do this:
1. Download this file: http://shedevr.org.ru/temp/sound/battlecity.lua
2. In FCEUX: load "Battle City" ROM and then go to menu: File -> Lua -> New Lua Script Window
3. In this new window press "Browse" button and load "battlecity.lua" file
4. Press "Run" and continue TASing.
Wow, those are pretty cool. I've only noticed the first one while watching the video, so I think you should try to emphasize those moments more. If screen fades almost immediately after you've finished constructing the image, this won't be noticed by viewers.
xxNKxx wrote:
Some maps I have clear all walls. (clear walls while speed run isn't easy)
It is not easy, but it also is not very entertaining (well, maybe for the first few times it is interesting, but not always).
OK, now, have you noticed that you can move tanks slightly faster? If you turn to a side for 1 frame every several frames, your tank resets coordinates to the nearest multiple of 8. Look at the picture.
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Master of Puppets wrote:
If the 2nd loop is considered the hardest difficulty, why start on 35 and not 36 and keep the loop order.
The game only allows to choose levels 1-35.
xxNKxx wrote:
Then I must think a new tactic when AI changed, how to can make best in my run and sill need shoot to walls
Are you sure that shooting walls is entertaining? I don't think you should sacrifice time in order to shoot walls. You'd better aim for speed, and only add entertainment when it doesn't slow down your progress.
xxNKxx wrote:
If just speed run, it'll easy for me very much, don't need luck control or think too much for tactics. I have feel I'm playing chess, not really shoot tanks game.
TASing is always about tactics and strategies, so of course any game will resemble chess.
In pure speed-oriented TAS you also need to think about tactics.
xxNKxx wrote:
I think I'll delay this until I have feel better. Or I'll try make new other with speed run only. Is it good ideas ?
Yes.
feos wrote:
You must watch the address that the game uses to determine randomness. It will help you to know if you are getting the new value each time you try manipulating it or just some old values repeat.
Bad idea. Have you looked at the RNG listing? Even if at the end of the frame he sees a different value in Random_Lo address, this won't mean anything, because RNG depends on values from Zero Page (also, RNG can be called several times during the frame), so there's no way to guess intermediate values of Random_Lo by seeing the final value of Random_Lo. E.g., maybe the final value (at the end of the frame) remains the same after you've changed Input, but some previous values became different. Or vice versa, maybe the final value changes because of different actions, but intermediate values didn't change substantially.
As I said, this RNG is incredibly uncommon (also providing a result which is extremely far from uniform distribution), so I don't think there's any conventional method to approach luck manipulation in this game, other than trial and error.
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xxNKxx wrote:
too professinal... :(
If you plan to ever learn TASing beyond its basics, you have to start using Memory Watch. Just do exactly what I wrote (steps 1-2-3) and you will be able to see the Respawn Timer, and thus you'll optimize your movie with better knowledge.
xxNKxx wrote:
Actually, that was pretty good. I liked the entertainment choices. Not sure about speed though. It looked like at the beginning of several stages you could start destroying enemies faster (thus reducing the initial delay of Respawn Timer). And we have not even started talking about certain movement trick.jlun2 wrote:
If you had done some research about the game, you'll find that it never ends.
Well, after finishing the 2nd loop (stages 36-70) the game difficulty resets to the same level as the first loop (stages 1-35), so beating stage 70 can be considered the end of the game.
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xxNKxx wrote:
I think the problem at respawn enemies time. In my preview video on upper you'll see I must wait it long time after use last grenade...
Yes, the problem is that there can only be 6 enemy tanks on screen. So you must pick the Grenade at the very frame when the 5th tank becomes vulnerable, in order to let the "Respawn Timer" proceed without delays.
Do you use Memory Watch tool?
1. In FCEUX menu go to Tools -> Memory Watch...
2. In this window there's big table that you can fill with addresses/names. Enter "x82" to the first text field (address) and type the name "Respawn Timer" to the Name field near it.
3. Now you'll see the Value of this variable. Play the movie and see how the value always counts down from 1E to zero. When it hits zero, it stops, and a new enemy tank may appear on screen. Notice how it stays at zero when you're moving towards the Grenade while there are all 6 enemy tanks on screen - this is when you're losing time. You must avoid this situation. Ideally, the "Respawn Timer" should be counting down all the time, without delays.
feos wrote:
Mass kills are so fun you can even include it as a speed/entertainment tradeoff, since having so much action will most likely get enjoyed and go to Moons.
I doubt that repeating this tactic for 35 levels will be enjoyable. Since he is still learning, it's better to make "fast as possible" version first.
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To me it's also pretty clear.
If this movie is in Moons tier, then it can only be beaten by a submission that gets positive audience feedback (majority of Yes votes, or maybe the judge decided to go against majority and still publish the movie in Moons).
But if the movie is in Vault, then it will be obsoleted by any submission that is faster (granted that difficulty and other settings match).
Toothache wrote:
I have to wonder if this is a problem with the categories as listed. Since this is a game with some non-standard goals as well as aiming for fastest in-game times (on the stages where it is relevant), it's like suddenly it doesn't fit into whatever 'neat' category the moon or whatever was supposed to represent. So the question is - what do you do with a game that isn't so clear cut like this one?
Whether the game has non-standard goals is irrelevant for Vault, because if achieving those goals doesn't produce an interesting movie, then the game would simply be considered a "bad game choice" under old rules, and would be rejected.
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xxNKxx wrote:
Ok, try watch the example video on upper, then could someone please tell me what best tactic for best run?
Think up the items tactic by yourself. It is really simple in this game.
xxNKxx wrote:
AnS wrote:
You did not answer my question: how do you control players? Are you using mouse?
Yes, mouse, like a noob :(
Actually, editing with mouse is better than rerecording, so you're good. I guess you only need a lot of experience, so don't complain and just spend more time TASing.
Try to make a Battle City TAS that is faster than the example video.
