Posts for Aran_Jaeger

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Aran_Jaeger
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Banned User, Player (9)
Joined: 10/29/2014
Posts: 176
Location: Bavaria, Germany
Regarding this [quote Personman] I just want to say that "ease of future improveability" has never been and should never be a criterion used to judge submissions here. It neither relates to the speed nor the entertainment of the run, which are the criteria we use. It really feels like people are bringing it up because they are looking for "objective" reasons to denigrate something they don't like. If you find speed-to-the-flagpole more entertaining, that's fine. You're allowed to. But don't try to make it seem like it's "objectively correct" because of some new metric you brought in from left field, that has literally never before been a consideration in any judging process on this website. [/quote] and the other statements that referred to the point I made earlier (regarding ''clean'' movie files possibly with markers as starting base for new works) in here, I just was suggesting it as generally useful mannerism, and not as criterion on how to judge submissions. And this also really shouldn't be anything new, but rather should be the usual practice, and if it hasn't been mentioned elsewhere or earlier, then I guess it's about time to mention it.
collect, analyse, categorise. "Mathematics - When tool-assisted skills are just not enough" ;) Don't want to be taking up so much space adding to posts, but might be worth mentioning and letting others know for what games 1) already some TAS work has been done (ordered in decreasing amount, relative to a game completion) by me and 2) I am (in decreasing order) planning/considering to TAS them. Those would majorly be SNES games (if not, it will be indicated in the list) I'm focusing on. 1) Spanky's Quest; On the Ball/Cameltry; Musya; Super R-Type; Plok; Sutte Hakkun; The Wizard of Oz; Battletoads Doubledragon; Super Ghouls'n Ghosts; Firepower 2000; Brain Lord; Warios Woods; Super Turrican; The Humans. 2) Secret Command (SEGA); Star Force (NES); Hyperzone; Aladdin; R-Type 3; Power Blade 2 (NES); Super Turrican 2; First Samurai. (last updated: 18.03.2018)
Aran_Jaeger
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Joined: 10/29/2014
Posts: 176
Location: Bavaria, Germany
[quote FractalFusion] Indeed, in normal conversation in the English language, most of the time "either ... or" is exclusive, or heavily implied to be exclusive even if not (e.g. the Wikipedia page which I just linked uses the term "either/or situation" with a specifically exclusive meaning). However it is also possible that "either" has a meaning indicating indifference to both cases being true (a possibly inclusive meaning). [/quote] Yes, sure. I'm not saying that the use of ''either'' strictly always excludes that ''both cases at the same time'' is an option. I just meant that I think that on average if one would go over many instances in which ''either'' was used, that one would find that it was meant as an excludive 'or'. However, I want to mention that there's the following symmetry: The same way in which one can view the inclusive 'or' case as its ''default'' meaning and expect that others refer to this same way of interpreting statements and only mean the exclusive case when they say ''this, or that, but not both'', one can in the same way view the exclusive 'or' case as its ''default'' meaning and expect that others refer to this same way of interpreting statements and only mean the inclusive case when they say ''this, or that, or both''. So when the additional word ''either'' is introduced, I see it as equivalent to the german ''entweder'' which we use when we want to make clear that we are talking about the exclusive case. Edit: And in logical statements, the ''either'' to me seems to be an indicator for the exclusive case especially since statements of the form ''either this, or that'' would still make sense if one would leave the ''either'' out and just write it as ''this, or that'', so if the ''or'' in here is meant to express the mathematical V-shaped (inclusive) operator, and one wants to give a meaning to the use of ''either'' (since it could otherwise just be left out), then it makes sense to assign the meaning of exclusiveness to it. (also yay 100th post :))
collect, analyse, categorise. "Mathematics - When tool-assisted skills are just not enough" ;) Don't want to be taking up so much space adding to posts, but might be worth mentioning and letting others know for what games 1) already some TAS work has been done (ordered in decreasing amount, relative to a game completion) by me and 2) I am (in decreasing order) planning/considering to TAS them. Those would majorly be SNES games (if not, it will be indicated in the list) I'm focusing on. 1) Spanky's Quest; On the Ball/Cameltry; Musya; Super R-Type; Plok; Sutte Hakkun; The Wizard of Oz; Battletoads Doubledragon; Super Ghouls'n Ghosts; Firepower 2000; Brain Lord; Warios Woods; Super Turrican; The Humans. 2) Secret Command (SEGA); Star Force (NES); Hyperzone; Aladdin; R-Type 3; Power Blade 2 (NES); Super Turrican 2; First Samurai. (last updated: 18.03.2018)
Aran_Jaeger
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Joined: 10/29/2014
Posts: 176
Location: Bavaria, Germany
I mean either the king's statement, provided it is true, does actually give rise to the uniqueness of the solution that satisfies all sign and room content conditions, or it doesn't, but are we sure it does? If so, then the solution (or well, at least when I checked 2 or 3 times through the list of sign statements, I couldn't find any contradiction) that I provided in my 2nd post, I: True, the Lady is in the room behind it. II: True, room behind it is empty. III: False, room behind it is empty. IV: False, a Tiger is in the room behind it. V: True, the room behind it is empty. VI: True, the room behind it is empty. VII: False, the room behind it is empty. VIII: False, the room behind it is empty. IX: False, the room behind it is empty. , must be a case that is excluded/eliminated as option if the information on if the content of room VIII being empty or a Tiger allows to get a unique solution. Now for the case that it is empty (and since this is the case in my example constellation), if my door choice doesn't represent a solution, this must mean that there'd at least exist 1 other valid constellation in which the room behind door VIII is empty but has the Lady behind a different door. So we are either left with the case that a unique solution is determined if there's a Tiger behind door VIII, or the puzzle is still not uniquely solvable. And through a lot of translating the sign statements into mathematical expressions, and then writing down the possible combinations of these, my brother resulted in 2 constellations (and there might even be others in which the Lady is even at new rooms) which had a Tiger in the room behind VIII, and had the Lady at 2 different rooms: I: True, Lady II: True, empty III: False, empty IV: False, {Tiger, empty} V: True, empty VI: True, empty VII: False, {Tiger, empty} VIII: False, Tiger IX: False, Tiger I: False, {Tiger, empty} II: True, empty III: False, {Tiger, empty} IV: True, {empty, Lady (the Lady is either here or behind door VI)} V: False, {Tiger, empty} VI: True, {empty, Lady (the Lady is either here or behind door IV)} VII: True, empty VIII: False, Tiger IX: False, Tiger In the above case, the Lady is behind door 1, and in the latter case, the Lady is behind door 4 or 6. (I haven't checked these constellations myself yet, though). Edit: Oh sorry, I forgot to respond to this: [quote p4wn3r] Anyway, at which step of your solution do you rely on "either or" being exclusive? That's not clear to me. [/quote] Well, there's multiple steps I think in which this exclusive or-interpretation was used, since I (but also my brother, so maybe the non-uniqueness is all just a result from this) interpreted both of the signs ''III - Either sign V is right or sign VII is wrong.'' and ''V - Either sign II or sign IV is right.'' as ''either x or y, but not both at the same time''. But this confuses me a bit, since I really thought that the use of ''either'' generally referred to the exclusive case. 2nd edit: Well at least after a quick search, I found some supporting reference on what my intuition told me on how to interpret the ''either'': https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/13889/does-either-a-or-b-preclude-both-a-and-b
collect, analyse, categorise. "Mathematics - When tool-assisted skills are just not enough" ;) Don't want to be taking up so much space adding to posts, but might be worth mentioning and letting others know for what games 1) already some TAS work has been done (ordered in decreasing amount, relative to a game completion) by me and 2) I am (in decreasing order) planning/considering to TAS them. Those would majorly be SNES games (if not, it will be indicated in the list) I'm focusing on. 1) Spanky's Quest; On the Ball/Cameltry; Musya; Super R-Type; Plok; Sutte Hakkun; The Wizard of Oz; Battletoads Doubledragon; Super Ghouls'n Ghosts; Firepower 2000; Brain Lord; Warios Woods; Super Turrican; The Humans. 2) Secret Command (SEGA); Star Force (NES); Hyperzone; Aladdin; R-Type 3; Power Blade 2 (NES); Super Turrican 2; First Samurai. (last updated: 18.03.2018)
Aran_Jaeger
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Joined: 10/29/2014
Posts: 176
Location: Bavaria, Germany
I'm not sure which book you are referring to, but later on, I did check out the link that you provided and I went far down on the page to a referenced page that linked to this place: http://clasen.blogspot.com/2012_02_01_archive.html And in there, my brother that also studies math got interested in it, and we checked through how the person on that referenced page went through it, and my brother detected a part that would have been a mistake if the person was using our version of the puzzle: A few paragraphs down from the top (should be the 7th from the top), the person arrives (during a case that the person currently investigates) at the following:
Sign V is yet another two statements linked by an ‘or’. They are both false, according to the logic explained just before. For one, this means that Room II is indeed empty, as its sign states.
And in our case we have ''V - Either sign II or sign IV is right. '', so that the negation of both parts would include the negation of sign V saying that the statement of sign II is false, which would mean the room behind sign II is not empty (as opposed to what the person concludes in the person's puzzle version, where sign V says the following instead: ''ROOM V: SIGN II IS LYING OR SIGN IV TELLS THE TRUTH'').
What did you assume in your solution?
I think I mentioned (most of) the additional assumptions with respect to which i investigated the puzzle, but in this case, I read the part ''and the prisoner successfully deduced the location of the lady.'' and wasn't sure which statement the prisoner used for this (final) deduction (since singular deduction steps generally don't follow from multiple statements ''together'' but always from exactly 1 statement that is applied for a given ''irreducible'' step, even though if one looks at a ''larger step'' then in this case multiple statements together in some chain could be refered to, but I assumed it was just 1 final piece that made the prisoner deduce the result, as opposed to many). Sure, one could assume the statement would be related to the communication right before that, but I didn't want to jump conclusions, since it could aswell have been the case that the prisoner made a mistake or got stuck for other reasons to conclude that the puzzle was not uniquely solvable with respect to determining the door behind which the Lady must be, and could aswell have gotten an idea or inspiration after or due to the discussion with the king at the end. So after I finished with 1 constellation that fulfilled the conditions that are induced by the statements of the signs and the implications given by what object is (or isn't) individually behind a room, for all the rooms, (and because I didn't want to go through all combinatorically possible options to see what other cases there might exist, and simply assumed that if the puzzle was in some way solvable at all, then all cases must end up with the Lady also resulting behind the same door behind which my 1 constellation had her), I added this corresponding assumption namely that if it is solvable, then there couldn't be different rooms in which the Lady could end up in different constellations, i.e. all constellations would have her behind the same door, and because I already had 1 constellation that worked and provided me with a/the door for the Lady, my conclusion was to choose said door (the first one).
collect, analyse, categorise. "Mathematics - When tool-assisted skills are just not enough" ;) Don't want to be taking up so much space adding to posts, but might be worth mentioning and letting others know for what games 1) already some TAS work has been done (ordered in decreasing amount, relative to a game completion) by me and 2) I am (in decreasing order) planning/considering to TAS them. Those would majorly be SNES games (if not, it will be indicated in the list) I'm focusing on. 1) Spanky's Quest; On the Ball/Cameltry; Musya; Super R-Type; Plok; Sutte Hakkun; The Wizard of Oz; Battletoads Doubledragon; Super Ghouls'n Ghosts; Firepower 2000; Brain Lord; Warios Woods; Super Turrican; The Humans. 2) Secret Command (SEGA); Star Force (NES); Hyperzone; Aladdin; R-Type 3; Power Blade 2 (NES); Super Turrican 2; First Samurai. (last updated: 18.03.2018)
Aran_Jaeger
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Joined: 10/29/2014
Posts: 176
Location: Bavaria, Germany
Well it was not clear to me at least. [quote p4wn3r] A prisoner is having a lady and tiger trial, but instead of purely chance, he can save himself using logic. There are nine doors. One of the doors has a lady behind and the others are either empty or have tigers behind them. If the prisoner enters the door with the tiger, he dies. If he enters an empty room, nothing happens, and if he enters the one with the lady, he marries her. The lady is a woman the prisoner loves, so he would prefer marrying her. [/quote] Do you see in here what might have confused me? I'll explain: This part [quote p4wn3r] One of the doors has a lady behind and the others are either empty or have tigers behind them. [/quote] depending on how it would be translated into formal expressions with parentheses, could be understood as ''if you pick any 1 of the 9 doors, then the room behind it is empty, (exclusive) or if you pick any 1 of the 9 doors, then it has at least 1 Tiger in the room behind it'', but it could also be understood such that for any given door the room behind it is either empty or exactly 1 Tiger is behind it, but it could also be understood such that for any given door the room behind it is either empty or ''tigers are behind it''. In particular though, it does not say ''One of the doors has a lady behind and the others are either empty or have a tiger behind them''. Now, since p4wn3r afterwards referred to ''the tiger'' later on, and since I assumed due to the many different meanings that the former statement could have had (and I thought maybe he just didn't want to go so much into detail there and quickly express a rough overview of the situation), that I should go with the latter description that made it seem like there exists only 1 Tiger (such as there alongside it also only existing 1 Lady), and because the latter description to me seemed to not allow for as many different interpretations, it felt more safe to me to go by that instead, but that was just my reasoning. I concluded from the use of ''the tiger'' instead of ''a tiger'' that multiple Tigers existing simultaneously was excluded, and from a Tiger being mentioned at all, together with the use of ''the tiger'', I was assuming that there was at least 1 Tiger involved. Also, I did not look up the link that p4wn3r provided, since I wanted to look into the puzzle the way p4wn3r presented it and also didn't want to risk seeing a solution to possibly already be presented on the page he linked. Edit: Regarding the way you handle or interpret ''A or B'', that is the same way I do it (except of the ''either'' part being relevant to me), and this way not being used in the presented puzzle formulation made me think with the ''either'', p4wn3r referred to the exclusive case. 2nd edit: It might be overthinking the problem if one observes that the final statement (coming from the king) is qualitatively different from all previous premises that were stated above/before, but from a consistency perspective, one might aswell have either stated all given statements as the initial ones or all in the format of a communication between the king and the prisoner to begin with, so I don't think it is so far fetched to think of the possibility that there could be a meaning for this separation between the 1 final statement from the previous rest. But yes, I guess since the puzzle is meant to be embedded into some story, a communication (between involved characters) could likely be expected as part of the puzzle, but then again, if one involves communication between characters, it might make about as much sense to tell the puzzle in this character communication format at the beginning aswell as at the end. 3rd edit: The thing is, there's so many different logics apart from the classical one (at least this page makes it look like it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Hilbert_systems ), that there might aswell be other ones which allow to get to conclusive valid (with respect to the given choice), ''fair'' problems. However, I agree that it seems far fetched to initially assume anything other than the classical one.
collect, analyse, categorise. "Mathematics - When tool-assisted skills are just not enough" ;) Don't want to be taking up so much space adding to posts, but might be worth mentioning and letting others know for what games 1) already some TAS work has been done (ordered in decreasing amount, relative to a game completion) by me and 2) I am (in decreasing order) planning/considering to TAS them. Those would majorly be SNES games (if not, it will be indicated in the list) I'm focusing on. 1) Spanky's Quest; On the Ball/Cameltry; Musya; Super R-Type; Plok; Sutte Hakkun; The Wizard of Oz; Battletoads Doubledragon; Super Ghouls'n Ghosts; Firepower 2000; Brain Lord; Warios Woods; Super Turrican; The Humans. 2) Secret Command (SEGA); Star Force (NES); Hyperzone; Aladdin; R-Type 3; Power Blade 2 (NES); Super Turrican 2; First Samurai. (last updated: 18.03.2018)
Aran_Jaeger
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Joined: 10/29/2014
Posts: 176
Location: Bavaria, Germany
Well, I think I didn't go into much detail there to explain what I meant, but no, I didn't mean ''decidability'' as a 3rd truth value, but rather exactly what you were refering to, namely if one can use existing statements from the system and combine them to get/reach out to an answer on if some given statement about the system is true or not, so basically ''if it matters to which of the 2 truth values we set this statement with respect to potential contradictions that might appear or not''. As an example, if we had 2 constellations that differ only in 1 part, namely that for some given room behind 1 of the 9 doors, there's a Tiger in it and in the other case the room is empty, but both cases satisfying all conditions asked for. Then if one would ask the question ''which of the 2 is the case?'', then one could not exclude either of the 2 cases, could not bring any of the 2 to a contradiction in order to exclude them, and hence the truth value of this statement could be either of the 2 without causing any problems, but without further specifying which ''model'' or ''completed system version'' one deals with (such that 1 of the 2 possible, irrelevant cases is determined), one cannot decide which is (or needs to be) the case. I guess in here,
(1) it holds true that any statement (that refers to the system) that can be expressed is either true, or false, or undecidable
one can interpret this such that it means that the truth value of the statement is either ''true'', ''false'', or ''undecidable'', but I just meant that either of these as statements about the given statement (''the statement is true'', ''the statement is false'', ''the statement is undecidable'') apply, but only 1 of them at a time/for a given statement (except that assuming an undecidable statement to be true or false will not allow to determine which is the case). I just wanted to explain that I didn't mean that every statement about the system necessarily needs to be provably true or provably false, and can be either of these without the system being capable to deduce which of the 2 it is.
collect, analyse, categorise. "Mathematics - When tool-assisted skills are just not enough" ;) Don't want to be taking up so much space adding to posts, but might be worth mentioning and letting others know for what games 1) already some TAS work has been done (ordered in decreasing amount, relative to a game completion) by me and 2) I am (in decreasing order) planning/considering to TAS them. Those would majorly be SNES games (if not, it will be indicated in the list) I'm focusing on. 1) Spanky's Quest; On the Ball/Cameltry; Musya; Super R-Type; Plok; Sutte Hakkun; The Wizard of Oz; Battletoads Doubledragon; Super Ghouls'n Ghosts; Firepower 2000; Brain Lord; Warios Woods; Super Turrican; The Humans. 2) Secret Command (SEGA); Star Force (NES); Hyperzone; Aladdin; R-Type 3; Power Blade 2 (NES); Super Turrican 2; First Samurai. (last updated: 18.03.2018)
Aran_Jaeger
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Joined: 10/29/2014
Posts: 176
Location: Bavaria, Germany
I'm going to respond in a more detailed manner about this topic later, since it appears that there's quite many different aspects to talk about that I cannot cover properly in a timely manner currently, but I wanted to point out a few things beforehand. First of all, there's quite some room for interpretation left for how the puzzle is meant to be understood (no Tiger being involved being a possibility?, exactly 1 Tiger being involved?, multiples Tigers possibly being involved?, ''either or'' meaning OR?, ''either or'' meaning XOR?,...), which can result in different versions of the puzzle that one can investigate here (and different initially given systems of axioms from which all deductions build up could also possibly lead to either different results or no conclusive results being possible to be deduced). Other observations are that the king's statement doesn't need to be true, and that it isn't specified from what (or rather: on the basis of what statement) the prisoner deduces the location of the Lady. Other than this, yes I made mistakes again in my 2nd post's approach at the part B regarding the negation of the conjunction of 2 separate statements, but the concluded constellation for me doesn't appear to lead to any contradictions (other than non-uniqueness), so in case the conclusion is false, can one identify where exactly a contradiction appears?
collect, analyse, categorise. "Mathematics - When tool-assisted skills are just not enough" ;) Don't want to be taking up so much space adding to posts, but might be worth mentioning and letting others know for what games 1) already some TAS work has been done (ordered in decreasing amount, relative to a game completion) by me and 2) I am (in decreasing order) planning/considering to TAS them. Those would majorly be SNES games (if not, it will be indicated in the list) I'm focusing on. 1) Spanky's Quest; On the Ball/Cameltry; Musya; Super R-Type; Plok; Sutte Hakkun; The Wizard of Oz; Battletoads Doubledragon; Super Ghouls'n Ghosts; Firepower 2000; Brain Lord; Warios Woods; Super Turrican; The Humans. 2) Secret Command (SEGA); Star Force (NES); Hyperzone; Aladdin; R-Type 3; Power Blade 2 (NES); Super Turrican 2; First Samurai. (last updated: 18.03.2018)
Aran_Jaeger
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Posts: 176
Location: Bavaria, Germany
Yes, p4wn3r, that is true, and when I went to bed and kept thinking about this puzzle (since it was late and I stopped trying to resolve the entire constellation in which the system was), I realized that the Lady being behind the door IX leads to a contradiction, and then I kept thinking about what mistake I made, and found that my mistake was that the negation of VIII saying ''a Tiger is in the room behind VIII, and the room behind IX is empty'' doesn't need to be restricted to the case in which ''the room behind IX is empty'' is false, since it is also a possibility that instead only ''a Tiger is in the room behind VIII'' is false. And I anticipated that someone else in the meantime would notice and make a mention of it, but yeah now I went through this again, with an improved reasoning which should be correct. - - - Under the additional (to the assumptions and statements part of the presented logical system) given assumptions that (1) it holds true that any statement (that refers to the system) that can be expressed is either true, or false, or undecidable (by only the statements provided by the system, such that any case (true or false) would not lead to any contradiction via statements from the system), and (2) there exists exactly 1 door among these 9 doors that has a Tiger behind it, and (3) for any of these given 9 doors, there's either a Tiger behind it, or the Lady, or nothing (the room behind the door being empty), (4) and I think I possibly might also need the ''tertium non datur'', i.e. that the negation of a false statement is a true statement (and vice versa but I think this might already follow), (5) and it is assumed, that the logical system is such that no contradiction can be deduced, in the procedure of going through distinguished cases that are one after another separately investigated, one can quickly cut down the number of potential candidates for situations that describe what is behind every door as follows: First of all, one can notice that the statement of the sign of door VIII is the only statement (among all 9 door sign statements) that has no other door sign statement that refers to this door sign statement (since the sign of door I makes a statement about all door sign statements part of odd doors, V makes a statement about the even cases II and IV, and IX makes a statement about VI), and it makes a statement about itself, so this seems like a good candidate for a starting point for case distinctions. A: Now, if the Lady is in the room behind VIII, then by VIII (and its statement being true due to the Lady being in the room behind VIII), we get the statement that the Tiger is in the room behind VIII, which by (3) and (1) leads to a contradiction together with the assumption of this case distinction, so either the logical system is contradictory or the assumption is wrong. By (5), the assumption is wrong. The same applies analogously for sign IX. B: If we assume that a Tiger is in the room behind VIII, then by VIII (and its statement being false due to a Tiger being in the room behind VIII), we get the statement that the room behind VIII is either empty or the Lady is in there, which leads to a contradiction by (3) and (1) together with the assumption of this case distinction, so by (5) this assumption is wrong. Again, the same holds analogously for IX. Due to (3) together with the results from A and B, we can conclude that the rooms behind VIII and IX are empty. C: If we assume that the statement VIII is true, then a Tiger must be in the room behind VIII, which together with this room being empty as concluded before constitutes a contradiction by (3), so by (5) this assumption is wrong, and hence, VIII must be false. The same holds analogously for IX. (Since VIII is false, the negation of its statement doesn't lead to a contradiction, since the case that there's no Tiger in the room behind VIII is true, and the room behind IX being empty being true.) I and II make statements about themselves aswell: D: If the Lady is in the room behind II, then by II the room behind II is empty, which together with the assumption of this case distinction states a contradiction by (3), so by (5) this assumption must be false. So by (3) either a Tiger is in the room behind II and II is false (since a Tiger is in the room behind II), or the room behind II is empty and the statement II is true, since if it were false, then by II and (3), either the Lady or a Tiger would be in the room behind II which contradicts the assumption of this case distinction. E: If III is false and if we consider the case that V is true and VII is false (which is 1 of the 2 possible cases in which III is false, since by III either both, V and VII, are true or both are false, and for its negation it must either hold that V is true and VII is false, or V is false and VII is true), then by VII and it being a false statement, we get that the Lady must be in the room behind I together with the statement I being true (since the Lady is in the room behind I), and by V and it being a true statement by assumption, we get one of 2 possible scenarios: E1: IV is true (and II is false or undecidable), and by IV, I is false which together with the conclusions from E constitutes a contradiction by (5), and by (5) again, this assumption must be false given that the assumption from E holds. This leaves only 1 other case given that the assumption from E holds, namely the following: E2: II is true (and IV is either false or undecidable). Now we can choose that a Tiger is in the room behind IV (since IV is not undecidable because it must be false, since otherwise if it were true, then I would need to be false but is true due to the conclusions from E), since given that the assumption E holds, IV must be false anyways (and there's no further sign statement that refers to IV), and we can set all remaining sign statements separately to either true or false without any contradiction being possible to be concluded, as follows: If we set II as true and the room behind II being empty, then this case doesn't contradict the statement II (since the room behind II is empty), and it doesn't contradict the case E2 of the case E (in which III is false). The statement I doesn't contradict the case in which the Lady is in the room behind I. If we choose VI to be true and the room behind it to be empty, then this doesn't contradict the case assumption of E, and doesn't contradict that IX is false, since the case that VI is true does (at least) not contradict one of the cases in which IX is false (namely the case in which VI is true and no Tiger being in the room behind IX). We can also set the room behind III to be empty without causing any contradiction (since I and VI are the only statements refering to III) and the room behind V to be empty alongside its sign V being assumed (in E) to be true (so that we couldn't put a tiger into the room behind this sign V without causing a contradiction). Finally, we also can set the room behind VII to be empty without causing any contradictions, and the state in which the system is would now for this case E be completely described without being able to cause any contradiction: I: True, the Lady is in the room behind it. II: True, room behind it is empty. III: False, room behind it is empty. IV: False, a Tiger is in the room behind it. V: True, the room behind it is empty. VI: True, the room behind it is empty. VII: False, the room behind it is empty. VIII: False, the room behind it is empty. IX: False, the room behind it is empty. Now, under the assumption that (6) it is possible to uniquely determine behind which door the Lady is located, and given that in this 1 non-contradictory case the Lady is behind door 1, the location of the Lady must result to be behind door 1 in any case, since otherwise one couldn't uniquely deduce behind which door the Lady must be. So choosing door 1 is a safe bet for the prisoner to get the desired outcome.
collect, analyse, categorise. "Mathematics - When tool-assisted skills are just not enough" ;) Don't want to be taking up so much space adding to posts, but might be worth mentioning and letting others know for what games 1) already some TAS work has been done (ordered in decreasing amount, relative to a game completion) by me and 2) I am (in decreasing order) planning/considering to TAS them. Those would majorly be SNES games (if not, it will be indicated in the list) I'm focusing on. 1) Spanky's Quest; On the Ball/Cameltry; Musya; Super R-Type; Plok; Sutte Hakkun; The Wizard of Oz; Battletoads Doubledragon; Super Ghouls'n Ghosts; Firepower 2000; Brain Lord; Warios Woods; Super Turrican; The Humans. 2) Secret Command (SEGA); Star Force (NES); Hyperzone; Aladdin; R-Type 3; Power Blade 2 (NES); Super Turrican 2; First Samurai. (last updated: 18.03.2018)
Aran_Jaeger
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Banned User, Player (9)
Joined: 10/29/2014
Posts: 176
Location: Bavaria, Germany
Okay, after taking a sheet of paper to draw out the structure of the logical statements as some directed graph, I get to the following results: Under the additional (to the assumptions and statements part of the presented logical system) given assumptions that (1) it holds true that any statement (that refers to the system) that can be expressed is either true, or false, or undecidable (by only the statements provided by the system, such that any case (true or false) would not lead to any contradiction via statements from the system), and (2) there exists exactly 1 door among these 9 doors that has a Tiger behind it, and (3) for any of these given 9 doors, there's either a Tiger behind it, or the Lady, or nothing (the room behind the door being empty), (4) and I think I possibly might also need the ''tertium non datur'', i.e. that the negation of a false statement is a true statement (and vice versa but I think this might already follow), in the procedure of going through distinguished cases that are one after another separately investigated, one can quickly cut down the number of potential candidates for situations that describe what is behind every door as follows: First of all, one can notice that the statement of the sign of door VIII is the only statement (among all 9 door sign statements) that has no other door sign statement that refers to this door sign statement (since the sign of door I makes a statement about all door sign statements part of odd doors, V makes a statement about the even cases II and IV, and IX makes a statement about VI), so this seems like a good candidate for a starting point for case distinctions. A: Now, by observing that in the case that the rooms behind door VIII aswell as IX are empty, we get a contradiction from the statement VIII independent on if it (as statement that corresponds to an empty room) is true (then by VIII, the Tiger is in the room that corresponds to VIII, but by assumption of the case distinction, the room is empty at the same time, and by my assumption (3), both cannot be the case at the same time and leads to a contradiction due to (1)) or false (in which case VIII claims that the room behind IX is empty, and because the statement VIII in this case is false, this means we gain the statement that the room behind IX is non-empty, contradicting the assumption of the case distinction by (1)). Hence we can conclude that the system is in a situation in which at least 1 of the two rooms, the room behind VIII and the room behind IX, is non-empty, and by (3), there's either the Lady behind 1 of the two doors, or a/the (by (2)) Tiger behind 1 of the two doors, or the Lady and the Tiger distributed to the 2 rooms behind those two doors. B: If we now assume that the room behind VIII is non-empty, then we get to a contradiction, since in case that the Lady is in the room behind VIII, we get by VIII (and the truth of its statement due to the Lady being behind its corresponding door) the statement that the Tiger is also behind this door that corresponds to the sign VIII, and by (3) a contradiction; and in the case that a Tiger is in the room behind VIII, we get by VIII and its statement being false due to a Tiger being in the room behind VIII the new statement that the room behind VIII is either empty or has the Lady, and in neither of these cases there can be a Tiger in the room behind VIII due to (3) which is a contradiction to the assumption of the case distinction due to (1); and these are by (3) the only 2 possible scenarios. Hence (by (3)), we are left with the only remaining possibility, namely that the room behind VIII is empty. And immediately it follows via the first case distinction A that the room behind IX cannot be empty. C: Now if we assume that a Tiger is in the room behind IX, then by the statement IX together with this statement being false due to a Tiger being in the room behind IX, we get a contradiction similarly as before with the assumption of the case distinction that the Tiger is behind IX together with the statement that the room behind IX is either empty or has the Lady. This leaves us with the only possibility left (if there even is any scenario in which all statements part of the system can be satisfied), namely that the Lady is in the room behind the sign IX. Edit: I think it turns out that my assumption (2) can be weakened or isn't needed (but it was the way in which I initially thought the puzzle was meant to to be). 2nd edit: There's a mistake in my above reasoning (and I'll leave this message here as it was, in case someone wants to search and find which mistake it was, but I also mentioned which it was in my post below).
collect, analyse, categorise. "Mathematics - When tool-assisted skills are just not enough" ;) Don't want to be taking up so much space adding to posts, but might be worth mentioning and letting others know for what games 1) already some TAS work has been done (ordered in decreasing amount, relative to a game completion) by me and 2) I am (in decreasing order) planning/considering to TAS them. Those would majorly be SNES games (if not, it will be indicated in the list) I'm focusing on. 1) Spanky's Quest; On the Ball/Cameltry; Musya; Super R-Type; Plok; Sutte Hakkun; The Wizard of Oz; Battletoads Doubledragon; Super Ghouls'n Ghosts; Firepower 2000; Brain Lord; Warios Woods; Super Turrican; The Humans. 2) Secret Command (SEGA); Star Force (NES); Hyperzone; Aladdin; R-Type 3; Power Blade 2 (NES); Super Turrican 2; First Samurai. (last updated: 18.03.2018)
Post subject: Making a TAS designed for easier obsoletion later
Aran_Jaeger
He/Him
Banned User, Player (9)
Joined: 10/29/2014
Posts: 176
Location: Bavaria, Germany
So I refrained from responding to some messages that I read in here regarding which I had some thoughts or own opinion, and I wasn't involved in these votes (and probably will not vote in this case), but there's one thing I found worth mentioning at this point regarding the types and availability of (submitted) movies, maybe as a tip for future TAS submissions (or creations of them). Namely there's something that I'm slightly worried about regarding the approach that HappyLee took in this TAS instance, and in order to explain what I mean, I'll go through a thought experiment: Imagine you'd have some game given together with a wish/task to find/make the fastest possible TAS (let's say for a given fixed branch), and after spending a lot of time on the game, you'd end up with some (pre-)finished movie file that (expectedly) demonstrates some approximation of the best possible time (note here that the best possible time is also an approximation of itself, so this case shall not be excluded here). And let's say that at this initial stage, the focus so far entirely lied on the (for TASVideos) primary goal of reducing the total time of the TAS, and further variations, changes, maneuvers, playaround, meant for a secondary goal such as entertainment remains to be worked out and implemented into the existing (pre-)finished movie. Now, if you don't know yet if the TAS could still be improved with respect to the primary goal (total time) or not and you go over to the/a 2nd stage and apply changes to the inputs of the TAS in such a way that they (possibly) just barely anymore fulfill the conditions needed to still meet the same finishing time of the movie that you initially managed to cut your TAS down to, then (now from a community perspective, a perspective that wants the strive for optimality) anyone else in the future that would want to continue the work on this game for a potentially possible improvement might now have to put in more work, possibly because said future person might be left with the initial ''burden'' to take out all the (with respect to the primary goal) unnecessary slowdowns/detours/variations (or in whatever form or shape it happens to exist) from the current existing TAS in order to get back to the ''clean'' situation (i.e. the form of the movie file as it was at the end of the first stage of the TASing process, before the entertainment variations were implemented) that could (for such future TASer) possibly be expected to be in a closer situation (than it might be for the entertainment-filled TAS case) to a situation that would cut off more time (provided it exists). By ''closer'' I mean a difference regarding the amount of inputs needed to change to get to a faster TAS. As an example that let's say involves a frame-rule such that time improvements only matter in multiples of 20 frames within which one gets to some point in the TAS, so that the same time would be obtained if one gets there within 5 or 17 frames, and would only be one further 20-frames long step slower if one would instead get there at the 21th frame or the 40th frame: With a given entertainment TAS that barely ''makes the cut'' to clear the game in some 20 frames interval I'd expect it to be more work from there to cut off further frames*, since at first, the ''improvements'' made by a future TASer will then not yet allow to make any difference time-wise and might have been known already by someone else, and said future TASer might at this point not yet know if he/she actually found a new improvement or just erased an old purposefully implemented slowdown out; compared to if one started from a TAS that is ''clean'' and expected to be closer to the next frame-interval to be one step faster. * With these frames of which I expect them to be easier cut off, I refer to frames that can be cut by grinding out close variations of given inputs for a segment (i.e. frames for which I expect that a brute-force would have it easier to cut them out), rather than frames that are cut due to a new idea/glitch being involved (and for this latter type of frames that could still remain as frames waiting to be cut, it wouldn't be as clear to determine which TAS version, a ''clean'' one or an entertaining one, would be seen as being ''closer'' to finding these or inspiring to find these). So for the greater general benefit, I'd expect it to be useful in general (if possible, since the circumstances might varii from game to game and TAS to TAS) if one would/could just provide multiple files (maybe alongside a submission, or in a corresponding game discussion thread), namely a ''clean'' version that is meant to be a new foundation for further experimentation and input variations for new cuts, and then (if it exists/was done this way) your personal (entertaining) variation of it (and maybe even a 3rd version that contains unnecessary but potentially helpful e.g. 2nd controller inputs as instrinsic markers in an input editor window for future TASers for orientation and to immediately see when some events start or end or other ''sidenotes'' that one can insert into movie files via inputs).
collect, analyse, categorise. "Mathematics - When tool-assisted skills are just not enough" ;) Don't want to be taking up so much space adding to posts, but might be worth mentioning and letting others know for what games 1) already some TAS work has been done (ordered in decreasing amount, relative to a game completion) by me and 2) I am (in decreasing order) planning/considering to TAS them. Those would majorly be SNES games (if not, it will be indicated in the list) I'm focusing on. 1) Spanky's Quest; On the Ball/Cameltry; Musya; Super R-Type; Plok; Sutte Hakkun; The Wizard of Oz; Battletoads Doubledragon; Super Ghouls'n Ghosts; Firepower 2000; Brain Lord; Warios Woods; Super Turrican; The Humans. 2) Secret Command (SEGA); Star Force (NES); Hyperzone; Aladdin; R-Type 3; Power Blade 2 (NES); Super Turrican 2; First Samurai. (last updated: 18.03.2018)
Aran_Jaeger
He/Him
Banned User, Player (9)
Joined: 10/29/2014
Posts: 176
Location: Bavaria, Germany
There exist further TAS WIP parts of Sutte Hakkun by Kaizoman666, for the stages 5-1 to 5-10 ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0FgpB5xStMY ), 6-1 to 6-10 ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AlepHhLdnnk ), and 7-1 to 7-10 ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=syjsSzC4CUY ). These were originally parts of a Snes9x1.43 movie file, but (after having the movie file transfered to an lsnes file) by adding blank frames at appropriate places as necessary to resynchronise the WIP on lsnes, it was carried over to lsnes by me: http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/45010467329363540 The WIP movie file (by Kaizoman666) actually continues somewhat further than what the videos show, and goes up to about halfway into 8-3. It seems that there might be 2 versions of this game, (J) which is the version that's used, and (NP) which apparently stands for Nintendo Power. In some stages, starting at 6-5, the permanent hopping (that is generally done throughout the stages to lower the movement/points counter shown at the top right of the screen in order to reduce waiting time at the end of every level) causes far more lag than the frames it'd cut off from the score countdown at the end, so this probably should be changed/adapted accordingly. As comparison material, and for the remaining stages, this video of a WR speedrun might help: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hOY4CcCOjyk
collect, analyse, categorise. "Mathematics - When tool-assisted skills are just not enough" ;) Don't want to be taking up so much space adding to posts, but might be worth mentioning and letting others know for what games 1) already some TAS work has been done (ordered in decreasing amount, relative to a game completion) by me and 2) I am (in decreasing order) planning/considering to TAS them. Those would majorly be SNES games (if not, it will be indicated in the list) I'm focusing on. 1) Spanky's Quest; On the Ball/Cameltry; Musya; Super R-Type; Plok; Sutte Hakkun; The Wizard of Oz; Battletoads Doubledragon; Super Ghouls'n Ghosts; Firepower 2000; Brain Lord; Warios Woods; Super Turrican; The Humans. 2) Secret Command (SEGA); Star Force (NES); Hyperzone; Aladdin; R-Type 3; Power Blade 2 (NES); Super Turrican 2; First Samurai. (last updated: 18.03.2018)
Aran_Jaeger
He/Him
Banned User, Player (9)
Joined: 10/29/2014
Posts: 176
Location: Bavaria, Germany
Here's some experimental data that was obtained via memory search (by me). In the following, when I refer to memory addresses, the indicator ''0x'' for a number corresponding to a memory address was left out for brevity, and most of the memory addresses are listed in order from small to large. Memory addresses are generally refered to them being represented as 1 byte and unsigned unless specified otherwise. I hope from the context it should be clear which numbers are refered to as decimal numbers (any number other than memory addresses) and which as memory addresses (or otherwise hex values which should be indicated with the pre-fix ''0x''). In particular, values of memory addresses are refered to as decimal numbers. I tried to (for the most part) order the addresses by their size and have an empty line between each 2 in the text neighboured statements about memory addresses whenever there exists at least 1 address between the 2 corresponding addresses in these statements. Any claim of the sorts ''x is (exactly) or behaves as y'' is meant as observation based on experimental sample data. ----- Addresses of the form 7E.... : - - - Imoto (the protagonist character) related addresses: Some addresses around 0B49 seem to be related to Itomo's attacks. 1004 seems to be Imoto's absolute x-position in pixels. 1006 seems to be Imoto's screen-dependent y-position in pixels. 1008 seems to be Imoto's screen-dependent x-position in pixels. 100A seems to indicate the direction Imoto currently faces as follows (0 - Imoto is facing left, 1 - Imoto is facing right). 100E seems to be some Imoto pose indicator as follows: 1 - Imoto is crouched or midair (jumping or falling from a ledge, without attacking), 2 - Imoto is standing (and facing either direction), repeating sequence of 2,3,2,4 - Imoto is walking forwards, sequence 2,5,6,5,2 of values - Imoto is spear punching, sequence 2,5,11,5,2 of values - Imoto is spear punching midair (during a jump or while falling from a ledge), sequence 8,7,8,7 of values - Imoto spear punching while crouched, slowly oscillating between 1 and 9 - Imoto is crouchwalking, 10 - Imoto is midair and downwards spear-punching, 12 - Imoto is using the spear-spinning attack midair, 13 - Imoto is using the spear-spinning attack on ground. (And there's most likely more cases to distinguish here.) 1010 seems to indicate if Imoto is crouching as follows (0 - otherwise, 8 - Imoto is crouching). 1015 seems to be some timer for Imoto's spear punch animation. 1016 seems to be some general timer for Imoto's animation. 1017 and 1018 seem to be related to Imoto's crouchwalk animation. 101A seems to be Imoto's current number of health points, and the (first obtainable) full-screen attack's damage seems to be determined by it as ''the same value + 1''. 101B seems to be the maximum of the health points that Imoto can carry. 101D seems to be an absolute Imoto y-position in pixels (of his bottom part?). 101F seems to be a (screen-dependent?) Imoto x-position in pixels (of his right side?). 1021 seems to be Imoto's absolute y-position in pixels (of his top part?). 1023 seems to be Imoto's absolute x-position in pixels. 1025 and 1026 seem to be frame counters for the duration of how long Imoto currently is in air during a jump before he lands. 1028 seems to indicate if Imoto currently is on ground as follows (0 - Imoto is on ground, 1 - Imoto is in the air during a jump). 1029 seems to indicate if Imoto currently is attacking as follows: 0 - Imoto is not attacking, 1 - Imoto is attacking with spear punch at any direction and on floor aswell as during a jump, 2 - Imoto is attacking with spear-spinning. 102A seems to indicate the direction of Imoto's last jump as follows: 1 - the jump was straight up or Imoto changed the direction of that jump (only doable after reaching its peak), 2 - the jump was to the right, 3 - the jump was to the left. 102B seems to be an indicator for to what direction Imoto moved at last as follows (0 - Imoto moved to the right, 1 - Imoto moved to the left). 102E seems to be the current number of lightning full-screen attack scroll ammunition (the first, left-most scroll in the list). 103C seems to be the countdown for Imoto's invulnerability frames (or could be a timer for the delay until Imoto's "aohhw" hurt-noise occurs). 1038 seems to indicate Imoto's last jump type as follows (182 - the jump was a low jump, 225 - the jump was a high jump). - - - Enemies related addresses for X=4, X=8, X=C: 10X0 seems to indicate if the 1st enemy slot is active/occupied/used as follows (0 - otherwise, 208 - 1st enemy slot is active). -- |10X2 seems to be the 1st enemy's absolute y-position in pixels. |10X3 seems to be the 1st enemy's y-position in (the number of) screens. |10X4 seems to be the 1st enemy's absolute x-position in pixels. |10X5 seems to be the 1st enemy's x-position in (the number of) screens. -- |10X6 seems to be the 1st enemy's screen-dependent y-position in pixels. |10X7 seems to be the 1st enemy's y-position in (the number of) screens, (but might also indicate if the 1st enemy slot is active). |10X8 seems to be the 1st enemy's screen-dependent x-position in pixels. |10X9 seems to be the 1st enemy's x-position in (the number of) screens. -- 10XE seems to be the state of the 1st enemy's sprite animation. 10(X+1)2 seems to be the 1st enemy's y-speed in pixels. 10(X+1)3 seems to be the 1st enemy's x-speed in pixels (except that when it has the value 1, it means 0 sideways speed, so there seems to be a shift in the assignment of speeds). 10(X+1)5 seems to be the state of the 1st enemy's sprite animation. 10(X+1)9 seems to control the flickering of the 1st enemy's sprite (if it changes at all or not). 10(X+1)A seems to be the 1st enemy's current number of health points (which seems to include the 1st boss). -- |10(X+1)D seems to be the 1st enemy's (bottom part's?) absolute y-position in pixels. |10(X+1)E seems to be the 1st enemy's (bottom part's?) y-position in (the number of) screens. -- |10(X+1)F seems to be the 1st enemy's (right part's?) absolute x-position in pixels. |10(X+2)0 seems to be the 1st enemy's (right part's?) x-position in (the number of) screens. -- |10(X+2)1 seems to be the 1st enemy's (top part's?) absolute y-position in pixels. |10(X+2)2 seems to be the 1st enemy's (top part's?) y-position in (the number of) screens. -- |10(X+2)3 seems to be the 1st enemy's (left part's?) absolute x-position in pixels. |10(X+2)4 seems to be the 1st enemy's (left part's?) x-position in (the number of) screens. -- 10(X+2)5 seems to indicate if the 1st enemy is currently active. - - - And analogous for the next cases with Y=0 and Y=4: 11Y0 seems to indicate if the 1st enemy slot is active/occupied/used as follows (0 - otherwise, 208 - 1st enemy slot is active). -- |11Y2 seems to be the 1st enemy's absolute y-position in pixels. |11Y3 seems to be the 1st enemy's y-position in (the number of) screens. |11Y4 seems to be the 1st enemy's absolute x-position in pixels. |11Y5 seems to be the 1st enemy's x-position in (the number of) screens. -- |11Y6 seems to be the 1st enemy's screen-dependent y-position in pixels. |11Y7 seems to be the 1st enemy's y-position in (the number of) screens, (but might also indicate if the 1st enemy slot is active). |11Y8 seems to be the 1st enemy's screen-dependent x-position in pixels. |11Y9 seems to be the 1st enemy's x-position in (the number of) screens. -- 11YE seems to be the state of the 1st enemy's sprite animation. 11(Y+1)2 seems to be the 1st enemy's y-speed in pixels. 11(Y+1)3 seems to be the 1st enemy's x-speed in pixels (except that when it has the value 1, it means 0 sideways speed, so there seems to be a shift in the assignment of speeds). 11(Y+1)5 seems to be the state of the 1st enemy's sprite animation. 11(Y+1)9 seems to control the flickering of the 1st enemy's sprite (if it changes at all or not). 11(Y+1)A seems to be the 1st enemy's current number of health points (which seems to include the 1st boss). -- |11(Y+1)D seems to be the 1st enemy's (bottom part's?) absolute y-position in pixels. |11(Y+1)E seems to be the 1st enemy's (bottom part's?) y-position in (the number of) screens. -- |11(Y+1)F seems to be the 1st enemy's (right part's?) absolute x-position in pixels. |11(Y+2)0 seems to be the 1st enemy's (right part's?) x-position in (the number of) screens. -- |11(Y+2)1 seems to be the 1st enemy's (top part's?) absolute y-position in pixels. |11(Y+2)2 seems to be the 1st enemy's (top part's?) y-position in (the number of) screens. -- |11(Y+2)3 seems to be the 1st enemy's (left part's?) absolute x-position in pixels. |11(Y+2)4 seems to be the 1st enemy's (left part's?) x-position in (the number of) screens. -- 11(Y+2)5 seems to indicate if the 1st enemy is currently active. - - - 1000 - 103F seems to be a range of memory addresses that are related to Imoto. 1040 - 107F seems to be a range of memory addresses that are related to the 1st enemy. 1080 - 10BF seems to be a range of memory addresses that are related to the 2nd enemy. 10C0 - 10FF seems to be a range of memory addresses that are related to the 3rd enemy. 1100 - 113F seems to be a range of memory addresses that are related to the 4th enemy. 1140 - 117F seems to be a range of memory addresses that are related to the 5th enemy. (...?) It seems that there only exist about up to 5 or to 7 enemies at the same time. Apparently the 5 enemy address ranges don't keep track of all enemies, since the blue travelling flames seem to be ignored, and the eggs that the flying heads spit out before one encounters the 1st boss probably too. - - - Screen related addresses: 1508 seems to be the screen's x-position in pixels that counts down when Hagane moves to the right (and does full loops). 1509 seems to decrement (by 1) after every finished loop that the address 1508 does while the screen moves to the right (and increments accordingly if the screen moves back to the left). ----- lsnes addresses (with Base 0 and Size 0): 48, 50, 52, 54, 58, 865 (with Base and Size 0) seem to be some counters for the numbers of uses of different instruments' notes. 8258409 seems to be some slow timer that increments (by 1) every time the frame counter finishes a loop and loops back from 63 back to 0. 8258408 seems to be some frame counter that sometimes doesn't increment (by 1) but then in such cases counts up by 2 for the next frame. 8261722 seems to keep track of the number of health points of the 1st boss. 8259768 seems to keep track of the 1st enemy's x-position in pixels. 8261667 seems to be Imoto's back's x-position in pixels (depending on what direction Imoto currently is facing). 8261636 seems to be Imoto's center's x-position in pixels (possibly depending on what direction Imoto currently is facing). 8261663 seems to be Imoto's front's x-position in pixels (depending on what direction Imoto currently is facing). 8261640 seems to be Imoto's screen-dependent x-position in pixels. These addresses here probably coincide with some addresses further above. - - - List of things for which addresses might exist: - current amount of score points - number of remaining Imoto lifes - current game mode (differentiating the 2 types in which the game can be paused, aswell as the unpaused case) - current (and maybe maximum) ammunition counts for all the other full-screen attack scrolls - indicator for when a full-screen attack is currently active/used - hitbox widths and heights (of actual body-boxes, maybe again with top-, bottom-, left-, and right-part, aswell as screen-dependent or absolute, but also sprites) aswell as the current (movement) direction for Hagane, enemies, and their projectiles - - - Some observations: Mashing inputs during load times seems to have no influence. It seems that holding forwards to walk (if I remember correctly, it is 1 pixel per frame) is as fast as holding forwards and down to crawl forwards. A simple forwards jump (with or without early horizontal spear attack) seems to not lose any time over walking either (provided one doesn't land in crouched pose, and maybe only when the height of the ground at beginning and end of the jump is the same, or the height difference is part of a specific set of possible options that don't cause frames of Imoto's movement stopping, since when Imoto lands and isn't right away positioned at the height of the ground so that the ground slopes would push him up to, then this process takes 1 frame). A highjump stays in place for 1 frame (when Imoto lands) if Imoto lands in the crouched pose, or if Imoto did a horizontal spear attack (shortly) before landing. It seems that there's no way to do any kind of ''armpumps'' (as in twitching or switching rapidly between poses) to push the character further while jumping/walking. During a high jump, one can spam sideways spear attacks without having to stay in place, and Imoto can also switch spear attack directions during jumps rapidly. Imoto can also do a crouched jump to have a different body-box midair. When enemy sprites (at least the flames at beginning) move around, then one can see some vertical transparent lines that the sprites pass (at around every tile coloumn's borderline probably), due to some brightness change in the sprite pixels of the enemies. In stage 1-1, Imoto's x-position stops for 1 frame when he lands at the very beginning, and it seems that every time that Imoto falls off a platform and lands in the crouch pose, there is 1 frame of sideways movement delay. In the water cave before the 1st boss, there is an item that (once it is obtained) takes long to finish an animation during which gameplay stops (and is most likely not worth obtaining for any of its intended purposes), and it has 3 different effects, depending on RNG: Either all health is restored, or a full screen attack appears that clears the screen from enemies, or Imoto is invulnerable for roughly 30 seconds to a minute. At the 1st boss, the full-screen lightning attack should be very well worth it with the high damage that it can deal if one gets there with a high number of health points. Apparently Imoto can carry at least up to 4 full-screen lightning attack scroll ammunition at the same time. The full-screen lightning attack should be very well worth it with the high damage that it can deal if one gets there with a high number of health points. 2 full-screen attack scrolls are close to the path, and 2 are further away (in the 1st part of the stage). Considering that the 1st boss has 19 invulnerability frames (meaning one can hit it only every 20 frames normally), and that the time that the full-screen attack costs is worth about 6 to 7 normal attacks means in the maximum Imoto health points case for 17 damage that there would be about 10*20 frames = 3 seconds & 20frames to 11*20 frames = 3 seconds and 40 frames of time to get each scroll for them to be worth it at the 1st boss fight. This most likely means that the top scroll should be worth getting but the far bottom left one in the cave not (for the 1st boss fight). Apparently, the 1st boss's AI (as in the future movement and attacks that it will execute) depends on previous L,R Y, B button inputs, their number and maybe also the duration of them being pressed (if it was odd or even). And apparently, for this AI, the game checks frames from far earlier aswell and even inputs during lag frames, but seemingly not controller 2 inputs. After the boss is dead, there's a short delay (which apparently cannot be avoided with inputs) for every health point that Imoto gains back, which needs to be minimized aswell, and the time delay for every missing Imoto health point is 8 frames it seems. (The last 4 stages are basically a repetition of the first 4 stages in the game, which should make some approaches and inputs recycle-able.) - - - Some further information about the game can be found on GameFAQ: https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/snes/588505-musya/faqs/29316 As with the English version, the title screen has a choice between "Begin" (Hajimekara) and "Cont." (inue) (Tsuzukikara). Selecting continue will go to the password screen. Passwords in Musya are obtained by losing all of the lives and going to the Game Over screen, which presents a choice between "Cont." (Tsuzukeru) and "End" (Owaru). Choosing "End" reveals the password for the level in which Imoto (Jinrai in the Japanese version) died in. When the user decides to exit from that screen, he returns to the title screen. For the english version, there's level passwords like this MWTV Level 2 KVSW Level 3 KVMW Level 4 RQNJ Level 5 VKX4 Level 6 NZ1N Level 7 Z66F Level 8 and are as follows for the japanese version: MITA Level 2 KASI Level 3 KAMI Level 4 RENJ Level 5 AKU4 (The Japanese numeral for 4 is used) Level 6 NO1N (The Japanese numeral for 1 is used) Level 7 O66F (The Japanese numeral for 6 is used) Level 8 - - - My furthest WIP of the U.S.A. version so far is the following (and it still contains some sporadic lag frames aswell as frames of Imoto stopping shortly when he lands, which should both be further reducable): https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/218520158963105792/449767522984525834/Musya_3_scrolls_WIP.lsmv For comparison, this here was a slower initial approach (which gets 1 less scroll than the above WIP, by skipping the very 1st scroll from the above approach): https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/218520158963105792/449768444238495746/Musya_TAS.lsmv Here's a movie file to document an occurence in which Imoto passes through a flame (around frame 5058) without getting hit: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/218520158963105792/449765893279318016/passing_through_a_flame_at_5058_without_getting_hit.lsmv Other than this, here's the lsnes RAM watch that I'm using: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/218520158963105792/449698645831450674/Musya_RAM_Watch.lwch
collect, analyse, categorise. "Mathematics - When tool-assisted skills are just not enough" ;) Don't want to be taking up so much space adding to posts, but might be worth mentioning and letting others know for what games 1) already some TAS work has been done (ordered in decreasing amount, relative to a game completion) by me and 2) I am (in decreasing order) planning/considering to TAS them. Those would majorly be SNES games (if not, it will be indicated in the list) I'm focusing on. 1) Spanky's Quest; On the Ball/Cameltry; Musya; Super R-Type; Plok; Sutte Hakkun; The Wizard of Oz; Battletoads Doubledragon; Super Ghouls'n Ghosts; Firepower 2000; Brain Lord; Warios Woods; Super Turrican; The Humans. 2) Secret Command (SEGA); Star Force (NES); Hyperzone; Aladdin; R-Type 3; Power Blade 2 (NES); Super Turrican 2; First Samurai. (last updated: 18.03.2018)
Aran_Jaeger
He/Him
Banned User, Player (9)
Joined: 10/29/2014
Posts: 176
Location: Bavaria, Germany
I thought I'd also provide Sniq's WIP (from longer ago, to the furthest point of stage 3-2) for the (U) version of the game (which includes the stage 1-1 slow screen shift skip), aswell as the RAM watch that he's been using: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/171753856378732544/449598970541637632/haganeany_stage3-2.lsmv However, according to Sniq, the method at the very end in the WIP that is used to break the walls is unoptimal. lsnes RAM watch: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/218520158963105792/449625916386050049/hagane.lwch Furthermore, there's an analysis of the game's RNG regarding drops, aswell as hitbox scripts, and a boss strategy (that involves the use of ''full screen attacks'' so that one probably would want to try and get aswell as collect enough ''full screen attack'' drops on the way up to this point, although drops that increase the maximum of health points that Hagane can carry are important, too), all made by Omnigamer: List of 500 RNG values (are those all?) together with their order and corresponding drops that one would get: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/218520158963105792/449594067421102080/Hagane_Drops.txt Hitbox scripts: https://pastebin.com/D9CnvX86 https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/218520158963105792/449625865584902146/haganehitboxpluslag.lua https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/218520158963105792/449625900573655050/haganepositionpluslag.lua Omnigamer's strategy for the miniboss of 3-2: Link to video In the SDA forum ( https://forum.speeddemosarchive.com/post/hagane_snes.html ), one can find Omnigamer's explanation for the grapple hook zipping inside walls and further information:
1. Face away from a wall, jump, and use the grappling hook. Right after you fire it, press towards the wall and you will partially clip into it. 2. Right before you are clipped back out of the wall, you have roughly 2 frames to press down, which puts you into a crouch animation. 3. Once you're crouching, you have a window of 2 frames to jump. This has to occur at least 1 frame after pressing down; it cannot be on the same frame. Several other places you can use it to perform a small zip, but unfortunately it will only be possible to use overhanging ledges for this.
The game's RNG is based on your score (for portions of it, at least). This can be abused in a run to ensure that several of the bosses always give a good pattern, with Boss 2 being the best example. You have a ton of invincibility during several of your flips and attacks, so abusing this can get you through some parts quicker than others. Also of note is that you can bounce off of some enemies to reach otherwise inaccessible ledges and things, which can significantly break up some levels.
Damages: T1J - 6, hits twice if aimed T1A - 5, hits twice if aimed T2J - 2, hits several times T2A - 7, hits once T3J - 25, hits once T3A - 4, hits area JumpKick - 1 Kunai - 2 Sword - 2 Grenade - 2 direct, 1 splash Grappling - 1 Bomb - 3 sets of 2 dmg, 6 total
One last thing that's useless, but fun to mention. If you're holding down and back as you enter Boss 1's area, the game bugs out and thinks you're pressing left+right. Kind of fun to do just for the heck of it. You can backwards slide too. Style points are go!
I can't seem to manipulate Boss 5 consistently yet. Being able to predict the spawn point of the weak spot is crucial, and it appears that going through 5-5 differently will force him to go through different patterns, no matter how I manipulate him by position. I was able to isolate the address for the spawn point (and his attacks) but I haven't investigated how to guarantee the pattern yet. It's at 7E1044 7E00AA-B as its main source of entropy, and it calls it for a lot of the graphical effects (flames during enemy death animations, charging up to swing the axe, etc). It also entirely influences Boss 5's pattern, at least. Another interesting note is that if you die, you will start at the beginning of the stage with the exact same AA/AB values as when you first entered. So if you go through, die, and then proceed mostly the same the next time, you are very likely to get the same drops. Because the RNG is called and changes every time: -Certain enemies perform actions (throwing axe, change directions, etc) -Enemy death animations occur (bird feathers, explosions as they fall away) -You kill an enemy -Any sort of fire/flame attack from any source, including the faces throughout stage 5.
c101e1 jsl $c0c434 [c0c434] A:0007 X:0002 Y:0000 S:01e4 D:1180 DB:83 nvmxdiZC V: 2 c0c434 php A:0007 X:0002 Y:0000 S:01e1 D:1180 DB:83 nvmxdiZC V: 2 c0c435 phd A:0007 X:0002 Y:0000 S:01e0 D:1180 DB:83 nvmxdiZC V: 2 c0c436 sep #$20 A:0007 X:0002 Y:0000 S:01de D:1180 DB:83 nvmxdiZC V: 2 c0c438 lda #$00 A:0007 X:0002 Y:0000 S:01de D:1180 DB:83 nvMxdiZC V: 2 c0c43a xba A:0000 X:0002 Y:0000 S:01de D:1180 DB:83 nvMxdiZC V: 2 c0c43b lda #$00 A:0000 X:0002 Y:0000 S:01de D:1180 DB:83 nvMxdiZC V: 2 c0c43d tcd A:0000 X:0002 Y:0000 S:01de D:1180 DB:83 nvMxdiZC V: 2 c0c43e lda $aa [0000aa] A:0000 X:0002 Y:0000 S:01de D:0000 DB:83 nvMxdiZC V: 2 c0c440 lsr a A:00b0 X:0002 Y:0000 S:01de D:0000 DB:83 NvMxdizC V: 2 c0c441 lsr a A:0058 X:0002 Y:0000 S:01de D:0000 DB:83 nvMxdizc V: 2 c0c442 lsr a A:002c X:0002 Y:0000 S:01de D:0000 DB:83 nvMxdizc V: 2 c0c443 lsr a A:0016 X:0002 Y:0000 S:01de D:0000 DB:83 nvMxdizc V: 2 c0c444 sta $28 [000028] A:000b X:0002 Y:0000 S:01de D:0000 DB:83 nvMxdizc V: 2 c0c446 lda $ab [0000ab] A:000b X:0002 Y:0000 S:01de D:0000 DB:83 nvMxdizc V: 3 c0c448 asl a A:0067 X:0002 Y:0000 S:01de D:0000 DB:83 nvMxdizc V: 3 c0c449 asl a A:00ce X:0002 Y:0000 S:01de D:0000 DB:83 NvMxdizc V: 3 c0c44a asl a A:009c X:0002 Y:0000 S:01de D:0000 DB:83 NvMxdizC V: 3 c0c44b asl a A:0038 X:0002 Y:0000 S:01de D:0000 DB:83 nvMxdizC V: 3 c0c44c ora $28 [000028] A:0070 X:0002 Y:0000 S:01de D:0000 DB:83 nvMxdizc V: 3 c0c44e eor #$ff A:007b X:0002 Y:0000 S:01de D:0000 DB:83 nvMxdizc V: 3 c0c450 sta $28 [000028] A:0084 X:0002 Y:0000 S:01de D:0000 DB:83 NvMxdizc V: 3 c0c452 lda $aa [0000aa] A:0084 X:0002 Y:0000 S:01de D:0000 DB:83 NvMxdizc V: 3 c0c454 ora $ab [0000ab] A:00b0 X:0002 Y:0000 S:01de D:0000 DB:83 NvMxdizc V: 3 c0c456 bne $c45e [c0c45e] A:00f7 X:0002 Y:0000 S:01de D:0000 DB:83 NvMxdizc V: 3 c0c45e lda $aa [0000aa] A:00f7 X:0002 Y:0000 S:01de D:0000 DB:83 NvMxdizc V: 3 c0c460 sta $ab [0000ab] A:00b0 X:0002 Y:0000 S:01de D:0000 DB:83 NvMxdizc V: 3 c0c462 clc A:00b0 X:0002 Y:0000 S:01de D:0000 DB:83 NvMxdizc V: 3 c0c463 adc $28 [000028] A:00b0 X:0002 Y:0000 S:01de D:0000 DB:83 NvMxdizc V: 3 c0c465 sta $aa [0000aa] A:0034 X:0002 Y:0000 S:01de D:0000 DB:83 nVMxdizC V: 3 c0c467 lda $28 [000028] A:0034 X:0002 Y:0000 S:01de D:0000 DB:83 nVMxdizC V: 3 c0c469 pld A:0084 X:0002 Y:0000 S:01de D:0000 DB:83 NVMxdizC V: 3 c0c46a plp A:0084 X:0002 Y:0000 S:01e0 D:1180 DB:83 nVMxdizC V: 3 c0c46b rtl A:0084 X:0002 Y:0000 S:01e1 D:1180 DB:83 nvmxdiZC V: 3
Alright, I've found the relative odds for each of the drops: 1UP: 1.56% Blue Flame: 1.56% Red Flame: 9.38% Kunai: 56.25% Grenade: 26.56% Bomb: 4.69% These are all stored in a 64-byte table at $83/A48E, and are indexed by the 6 most significant bits of the RNG function. RNG function is the process listed a couple posts above, and is the value left in the accumulator after all that.
- - - There's also some info on the game in GameFAQ ( https://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/588366-hagane ), but I'm not sure how useful it is: https://www.gamefaqs.com/snes/588366-hagane/faqs/60624 https://www.gamefaqs.com/snes/588366-hagane/faqs/34636 There's also a Hagane entry on gamehacking, which might contain some more info on memory addresses: https://gamehacking.org/game/43103 - - - I made a list that contains timestamps for the TAS by Tiger and Heisanevilgenius, and some observations during tests: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/218520158963105792/449627163646361613/Hagane_timestamps_for_the_TAS_by_Tiger__Heisanevilgenius.txt Hagane cannot attach himself with the grapple hook onto the ''open/non-solid'' ceiling in stage 1-1 (which can be tested by creating solid 8by8-pixel tiles with the cheat tool higher up in the air). The ceiling in stage 1-1 also doesn't cause Hagane to bonk it and lose upwards speed and fall down immediately but keeps Hagane sticking to the ceiling until he naturally starts falling. Apparently it seems that Hagane (in standing and walking pose) has a body-box width of 8 or less pixels, because it suffices to change 1 floor tile address (in stage 1-1) from solid to air to let him fall into the floor, with the created gap. However, if one creates a gap in the floor (using the cheat tool) at the beginning of stage 1-1 that is three 8by8-pixel tiles wide and a solid floor tile is put 1 tile row under it in the center of the gap, one can move Hagane into the gap and onto this lower floor tile and can walk left and right and can crouch and turn and will not fall past the floor. But with the downkick, Hagane can move through the gaps, so his body-box is probably thinner in that pose. In stage 1-1, if one turns enough rows of floor tiles into air to the far left to make a gap in the ground, then Hagane can fall through the floor and the screen will fade out, Hagane loses 1 life, and the stage restarts. And when the next attempt starts, Hagane during his inital automatic movement animation where he walks to about the center of the screen will move over the gap and doesn't fall into it. SO there is no interaction with the ground at this initial phase (would Hagane move through solid blocks, too?). If one starts an attack during crouch, one can stand up during the attack, but not vice versa. If one inputs a grapple hook attack at the same time as a downkick, then the downkick happens with the grapple hook sound. In 1-1 one can jump into the 1st enemy's sword attack and get hit without a knockback animation happening.
collect, analyse, categorise. "Mathematics - When tool-assisted skills are just not enough" ;) Don't want to be taking up so much space adding to posts, but might be worth mentioning and letting others know for what games 1) already some TAS work has been done (ordered in decreasing amount, relative to a game completion) by me and 2) I am (in decreasing order) planning/considering to TAS them. Those would majorly be SNES games (if not, it will be indicated in the list) I'm focusing on. 1) Spanky's Quest; On the Ball/Cameltry; Musya; Super R-Type; Plok; Sutte Hakkun; The Wizard of Oz; Battletoads Doubledragon; Super Ghouls'n Ghosts; Firepower 2000; Brain Lord; Warios Woods; Super Turrican; The Humans. 2) Secret Command (SEGA); Star Force (NES); Hyperzone; Aladdin; R-Type 3; Power Blade 2 (NES); Super Turrican 2; First Samurai. (last updated: 18.03.2018)
Aran_Jaeger
He/Him
Banned User, Player (9)
Joined: 10/29/2014
Posts: 176
Location: Bavaria, Germany
Here's some experimental data that was obtained via memory search (by me and Omnigamer). In the following, when I refer to memory addresses, the indicator ''0x'' for a number corresponding to a memory address was left out for brevity, and most of the memory addresses are listed in order from small to large. Memory addresses are generally refered to them being represented as 1 byte and unsigned unless specified otherwise. I hope from the context it should be clear which numbers are refered to as decimal numbers (any number other than memory addresses) and which as memory addresses (or otherwise hex values which should be indicated with the pre-fix ''0x''). In particular, values of memory addresses are refered to as decimal numbers. I tried to (for the most part) order the addresses by their size and have an empty line between each 2 in the text neighboured statements about memory addresses whenever there exists at least 1 address between the 2 corresponding addresses in these statements. Any claim of the sorts ''x is (exactly) or behaves as y'' is meant as observation based on experimental sample data. ----- Memory addresses of the form 7E.... : 007A seems to be a looping countdown for In-Game-Time frames (from 59 to 0). 007B seems to be a looping countdown for In-Game-Time seconds (from 153 to 0). 00AA and 00AB together determine the (complete) RNG value, according to Omnigamer's results during his research from longer ago on the SDA forum ( https://forum.speeddemosarchive.com/post/hagane_snes.html ). 020C, 021B, and 021C each seem to count the current number of ''existing explosion sprites + existing Hagane pickups''. 0508 seems to count the number of stages through which one has progressed and assigns 1 number to every stage: 0 - stage 1-1, 1 - stage 1-2 and 1-3, 2 - stage 1-4, 3 - Musha Mukuro, 4 - stage 2-1, 5 - stage 2-2, 6 - stage 2-3, 7 - En-Mikoshi, 8 - stage 3-1, 9 - stage 3-2, 10 - stage 3-3, 11 - stage 3-4 and Jasei-Jyu, 12 - stage 4-1, 13 - stage 4-2, 14 - stage 4-3, 15 - Jyuso-Dama, 16 - stage 5-1, 17 - stage 5-2, 18 - stage 5-3 and stage 5-4 and 5-5, 19 - Shura-Oh, 20 - Amano-Ikazuchi. 050F seems to determine the currently chosen weapon as follows: 0 - sword, 1 - kunai, 2 - grenade, 3 - grapple hook. Hagane will attack with if one does an attack (that is normally shown in the HUD). (AB24 to AB2F aswell as AB64 to AB6F seem to be related to the currently chosen weapon in the HUD, too.) 0511 seems to be the current kunai ammunition count. 0512 seems to be the current grenade ammunition count. 0513 seems to be the maximum of health points Hagane currently can carry. 0514 seems to be Hagane's current number of health points. 0515 seems to be the number of Hagane's lifes currently. 0516 seems to be the current ammunition count for ''fullscreen attacks''. 0520 and 051D (and 051A, but only at the end of some stages) seems to indicate the score's last 3 digits (the final digit stays 0, and every multiple of 16 in the address value contributes 100 points, and the remainder contributes 10 points, e.g. 22 = 16+6 would correspond to 160 points). 0521 and 051E (and 051B, but only at the end of some stages) seems to indicate the score's central 2 digits (every multiple of 16 in the address value contributes 10000 points, and the remainder contributes 1000 points, e.g. 22 = 16+6 would correspond to 16000 points). 0522 and 051F (and 051C, but only at the end of some stages) seems to indicate the score's first 2 digits (every multiple of 16 in the address value contributes 1000000 points, and the remainder contributes 100000 points, e.g. 22 = 16+6 would correspond to 1600000 points). 0535 to 053B have fixed values ordered from 1 to 6 (for an unknown purpose). 053C to 0542 have fixed values ordered from 2 to 12 (for an unknown purpose). 0768 seems to be the current screen x-position in pixels. 076A seems to be the current screen y-position in pixels. - - - Hagane pose change related addresses: 0901 seems to be an indicator for Hagane being vulnerable, and normally has the value 128 except during Hagane's knockback animation or sometimes during backwards tumbles it has the value 0. 0903 seems to be Hagane's invulnerability timer which is normally 0 but jumps to 96 and then decrements by 1 every (gameplay-)frame as countdown. 0905 seems to be a game mode indicator as follows (0 - during loading times, 8 - when a stage is active). 0904 seems to indicates if Hagane is moving against a wall as follows (0 - otherwise, 1 - Hagane is moving against a wall (outside of a spinjump re-bounce)). 0906 seems to indicate Hagane's sprite state as follows: 0 - standing on ground, 1 - falling during normal jump, 2 - rising during normal jump, 3 - spinjump, 4 - spinjump re-bounce, 14 - crouching, 16 - 1st forwards tumble, 17 2nd forwards tumble, 18 3rd forwards tumble, 19 backwards tumble, 20 - ground-slide, 23 - downkick, 24 - 1st phase ground attack, 25 and 30 - 1st phase air attack, 26 and 30 - 2nd phase ground attack, 27 and 30 - 2nd phase air attack, 28 - 3rd phase ground attack, 29 and 30 and 12 - 3rd phase air attack, 32 - knockback animation, 33 - death animation, 40 - initial automatic 1-1 walking animation. 0908 seems to be Hagane's screen-dependent x-position in subpixels. 0909 seems to be Hagane's current screen-dependent x-position corresponding to the number of tiles. 090A seems to be Hagane's screen-dependent y-position in subpixels. 090B seems to be Hagane's screen-dependent y-position in the number of tiles. 090C seems to be Hagane's current x-movement speed in subpixels and seems to behave as follows: 32 - moving rightwards mid-jump, 64 - Hagane walks to the right, 96 - rightwards ground-slide/spinjump, 160 - leftwards ground-slide/spinjump, 192 - Hagane walks to the left, 224 - moving leftwards mid-jump, changing values - during spinjump-wall-bonk right-/left-wards. 090D seems to be an indicator for ''trying to make Hagane move leftwards'', by holding left or ground-sliding leftwards with Hagane (during gameplay frames, independent on if it makes Hagane move left) unless while Hagane is doing a downkick or tumbling rightwards or in the spinjump-rebounce animation or ground-sliding rightwards or if one is holding left+right among maybe further cases as follows (0 - otherwise, 255 - Hagane trying to move to the left). 090E seems to be Hagane's current y-movement speed in subpixels. Or it might (in different stages) be an absolute Hagane y-position in subpixels. 090F seems to indicate if Hagane is rising during a jump and seems to behave as follows (0 - otherwise, 255 - Hagane rising). 0910 seems to be another screen-dependent Hagane x-position in pixels. 0912 seems to be another screen-dependent Hagane y-position in pixels. 0918 seems to indicate Hagane's current pose and seems to behave as follows: 0 - spinjump, 1 - crouching/rising during jump/spinjump, 2 - downwards kick/crouched sword slash/forwards tumble, 3 - standing/forwards tumble, 4 - ground-sliding/rising jump kunai/rising jump grapple hook/rising jump grenade, 5 - falling during jump/upwards grapple hook/sword slash/rising during jump/backwards tumble/rising jump sword slash, 6 - standing sword slash/backwards tumble/rising jump sword slash, 7 - backwards tumble, 8 - walking/throwing grenade standing/throwing kunai standing/sideways grapple hook standing/forwards tumble/backwards tumble. 091C seems to behave accordingly to Hagane's actions as follows: 0 - during crouch/jump, 2 - Hagane is standing, frame-wise incrementing up to 55 and looping back to 0 - while Hagane is walking, incrementing by 1 and 2 - during spinjumps/downkicks until they end. 091E seems to be some ''attack timer'' that behaves as follows (frame-wise incrementing from 1 to 7 - during sword slash, frame-wise incrementing from 1 to 11 - when a grenade/kunai is thrown, frame-wise incrementing from 1 to 27 - during the duration of any grapple hook shot (if it doesn't hit anything); and resets back to 0 afterwards in all cases). 0920 and 0921 together seem to count the number of frames Hagane is standing on ground (idling) (with 0921's value incrementing each time the value of 0920 loops). These counters reset to 0 when Hagane dies. In 1-1, 0920 also keeps incrementing during the initial automatic walking animation. It appears that these addresses are used for the cycling breathing animation of Hagane which stops if one fixes the values. 0922 seems to behave accordingly to Hagane's actions as follows: slow loops from 8 to 21 - while Hagane is walking, incrementing from 44 to 45 - during standing- or midair-horizontal-grapple-hook, incrementing from 48 to 49 - during crouched grapple hook, incrementing from 60 to 61 - during standing- or midair-upwards-grapple-hook, incrementing from 64 to 67 - during standing- or midair-kunai-throw, incrementing from 72 to 75 - during crouched kunai-throw, 96 - during ground-slide, oscillating between 100 and 101 - during downkick, incrementing from 128 to 131 - during standing- and midair-sword-slash, incrementing from 136 to 139 - during crouched sword slash, 160 - during crouch, 164 - while rising during jump, 166 - while falling during jump, slow loops from 168 to 171 - during idling standing phase. 0924 seems to behave accordingly to Hagane's actions as follows: slow loops from 0 to 6 - while Hagane is walking, 7 - during crouch, 104 - during ground-slide, oscillating between 108 and 109 - during downkick, 165 - during midair kunai throw/sword slash/grapple hook/grenade, 165 - while rising during jump, 167 - while falling during jump, slow loops from 172 to 175 - during idling standing phase, for short time adding 1 and 2 to the idling standing pose values - during kunai throw/sword slash/grapple hook/grenade. 0926 seems to be the direction Hagane currently faces as follows (0 - right, 1 - left). 092B seems to behave as follows (oscillating between 32 and 34 - as long as Hagane is blinking from getting hit (so it might be related to drawing the Hagane sprite entirely white), 34 - otherwise). All addresses from 092C to 0931 have the value 0 as long as Hagane is in the knockback animation (and have mostly other fixed values otherwise). 092C seems to behave as follows: 240 - during ground-slides, 246 - during backwards tumbles, 248 - during forward tumbles and spinjumps, 252 - otherwise. 092E and 092F have the value 0 when Hagane crouches (and have mostly other fixed values otherwise). 0931 seems to indicate some Hagane poses as follows: 0 - any tumble phase attack/knockback animation, 7 - ground-sliding, 15 - spinjump/re-bounce, 20 - forwards tumbles/backwards tumble, 23 - standing/walking/crouching/jumping/falling, 24 - downkick. 0932 seems to indicate Hagane's current attack type as follows: 0 - no attack, 1 - sword slash, 2 - kunai, 3 - grenade, 4 - horizontal grapple hook, 5 - vertical grapple hook. 098C seems to be another Hagane pose indicator. - - - Hagane projectiles related addresses: -- |0A10 seems to be Hagane's 1st kunai slot's screen-dependent x-position in pixels. |0A11 seems to indicate if Hagane's next projectile is the 1st kunai slot (0 - no, 255 and 1 - yes), and seems to indicate if the projectile is still on screen or offscreen to the left or right. |0A12 seems to be Hagane's 1st kunai slot's screen-dependent y-position in pixels. | |0A14 seems to determine the sprite look of Hagane's 1st kunai. | |0A18 seems to count the number of frames for which the 1st kunai exists (and does full loops), and seems to correspond to and drive its dust animation. |0A19 seems to increment (by 1) every time 0A18 finishes a loop. -- -- |0A30 seems to be Hagane's 2nd kunai slot's screen-dependent x-position in pixels. |0A31 seems to indicate if Hagane's next projectile is the 2nd kunai slot (0 - no, 255 and 1 - yes), and seems to indicate if the projectile is still on screen or offscreen to the left or right. |0A32 seems to be Hagane's 2nd kunai slot's screen-dependent y-position in pixels. | |0A34 seems to determine the sprite look of Hagane's 2nd kunai. | |0A38 seems to count the number of frames for which the 2nd kunai exists (and does full loops), and seems to correspond to and drive its dust animation. |0A39 seems to increment (by 1) every time 0A18 finishes a loop. -- The following 5 collections of memory addresses seem to analogously copy/imitate the above Hagane projectile stats for X=5, X=7, X=9; X=B, and X=D. -- |0AX0 |0AX1 |0AX2 | |0AX4 | |0AX8 |0AX9 -- - - - Sound related addresses: 0A58, 0A78, 0A98, 0AB8 are similar and seem to indicate attack sounds or are some ground collision noise timers. 0A5C, 0A7C, 0A9C, 0ABC are similar and seem to indicate attack sounds. 0A5F, 0A7F, 0A9F, 0ABF are similar and seem to indicate attack sounds. - - - Enemy related addresses: The data for each enemy seems to range from 1X00 to 1X7F, or 1X80 to 1XFF, with X from 0 to F, for 32 enemy slots in total. -- |1X03 / 1X83 seems to be an enemy's invulnerability timer. |1X04 / 1X84 seems to indicate how an enemy moves and its appearance. |1X06 / 1X86 seems to be an enemy's AI state. | |1X08 / 1X88 seems to be an enemy's screen-dependent x-position in subpixels. |1X09 / 1X89 seems to be an enemy's (or its projectile's) screen-dependent x-position in tiles. |1X0A / 1X8A seems to be an enemy's screen-dependent y-position in subpixels. |1X0B / 1X8B seems to be an enemy's screen-dependent y-position in tiles. | |1X10 / 1X90 seems to be an enemy's (or its projectile's) far left side's (screen-dependent?) x-position in pixels. |1X11 / 1X91 seems to indicate if an enemy is on screen, or past its boundary to the right or left. |1X12 / 1X92 seems to be an enemy's far top's (screen-dependent?) y-position in pixels. | |1X15 / 1X95 and 1X25 / 1XA5 seem to indicate if an enemy is blinking (from getting hit). | |1X18 / 1X98 seems to be a frame counter for how long an enemy is already active. | |1X1C / 1X9C seems to indicate an enemy's current pose. | |1X20 / 1XA0 seems to be aswell an enemy's (or its projectile's) far left side's (screen-dependent?) x-position in pixels. |1X21 / 1XA1 seems to aswell indicate if an enemy currently is on screen, or past its boundary to its right or left. |1X22 / 1XA2 seems to be aswell an enemy's (screen-dependent?) far top's y-position in pixels. | |1X2B / 1XAB seems to determine an enemy's current sprite to some extent. | |1X2E / 1XAE seems to be the number of scorepoints that killing an enemy adds. |1X2F / 1XAF seems to be an enemy's current number of health points (with an enemy dying once the hp goes strictly below 0). | |1X40 / 1XC0 seems to be a delay timer (or countdown) for when the enemy starts executing an action. | |1X44 / 1XC4 seems to be a timer that determines the progression of the enemy's sprite animation. | |1X46 / 1XC6 seems to be another timer that determines the progression of the enemy's action or animation. | |1X48 / 1XC8 seems to be a slow timer for when the enemy does an action. | |1X64 / 1XE4 seems to be a dying enemy's countdown timer for when its blinking shall start and when it shall disappear. | |1X70 / 1XF0 and 1X74 / 1XF4 seem to be an enemy's slow timers that correspond to its animation. -- Apparently, an enemy can despawn once its y-position reaches 38 in pixels and 49 in subpixels (below the screen), but this might be dependent on the enemy's vertical size. An enemy apparently can also despawn once its x-position reaches 249 in tiles and 176 in subpixels (to the left of screen). The very first enemy that appears in 1-1 seems to consist of 2 parts. 2000, 2004, 2008, 200C seem to be screen-dependent x-positions in pixels of enemy projectile sprites, (but not their hitboxes). Some of the following addresses seem to change depending on Hagane's animation or pose: -- |2003 seems to update when the direction that Hagane currently faces changes (34 - right, 98 - left) |09B5 seems to update aswell when the direction that Hagane currently faces changes, but only seems to update for Hagane's turnarounds on ground. |When Hagane lands from a jump, the values of 2003 and 2007 seem to be increased by 2 for a short time. |2003, 2007,... (step size of +0x4 for further addresses), up to 201F seem to indicate the direction Hagane currently faces aswell (with the same values for all these addresses), but seem to not update during crouched turnarounds. |2017, 201B and 201F seem to not update if Hagane turns around midair but seem to update if Hagane turns around while standing on ground. |2007, 200B, 200F and 2013 seem to keep updating at turnarounds during jumps. -- - - - Timers/Counters/Countdowns (candidates): During the Intro: 000A seems to be a frame counter and countdown. 0011 seems to be a frame countdown with small sized steps. 0013 seems to be a slow intro countdown that does full loops. 0028 seems to be a general frame counter. 007D and 0081 are similar and seem to be frame counters that both do loops. 007E seems to reset at the beginning of every stage to 0 and increment (by 1) every time the address 007D finishes a loop. 0099 seems to be a fast counter with small steps. 0766 and 1212 are similar and seem to be frame counters that do full loops. 1016 and 1036 are similar and seem to be frame counters that do full loops. 1056, 1076, 1096, 10B6, 10D6, 10F6 and 1116 are similar and seem to be frame counters. 110A seems to be a countdown with large sized steps. 1216, 1296 and 1298 are similar and seem to be frame counters. 1298, 12B8, 12D8, 12F8, 1318, 1338 and 1358 are similar and seem to be frame counters that do full loops. 129C seems to be another frame counter. ----- Addresses of the form 7F.... : - - - Further timers: 007E seems to slowly count up (during stage gameplay). 06E2 seems to be a frame counter that does full loops (during stage gameplay). 072D and 07C1 are similar and seem to be frame countdowns that do full loops (during autoscroller gameplay). 07A8, 07C7 and 07D2 seem to be frame countdowns that do full loops (during autoscroller gameplay). 07B4 and 07DE are similar and seem to be slow countdowns, or might be some constantly changing x-positions too (during autoscroller gameplay). AB50 seems to be some in-game-time seconds countdown timer that runs from 41 to 32 and loops (during stage gameplay). 0C09 seems to be a frame counter that does full loops (during autoscroller gameplay). 1018 and 1398 are similar and seem to be frame counters that do full loops (during gameplay at bosses). All addresses from D000 to D0FF are similar and seem to be counters with large and small steps and with a pattern of alternating values. All addresses from D140 to D17F are similar and seem to be counters with large and small steps and with a pattern of alternating values. D614 seems to be another frame counter. All addresses from D614 to D61F are similar and seem to be frame countdowns. - - - - - Overview of addresses that don't change at all during the entire TAS by Tiger and Heisanevilgenius: - - - |7E0000 |... |7E220E - |7E220F |... (0 changes) |7E27FF - |7E2800 |... |7FFFFF - |s00000 |... (0 changes) |s1FFFF - |i00000 |... (0 changes) |i020FF - |i02100 |... |i04367 - |i04368 |... (0 changes) |i07FFF - - - - - - Most addresses of the form 7E.... that change by messing around at beginning of 1-1 are from 0000 to 0386, 0511 to 0BFF, 1000 to 12C4, 2000 to 204F, 2200 to 2204, and 3001 to 3011; and for the addresses of the form 7F.... from A800 to ADFF, D122 to D13F, D800 to DF2C, i02117 to i02140, and i04202 to i04317. - - - - - List of things for which addresses might exist: - number of killed enemies - number of currently existing enemies - number of currently existing projectiles - game mode - full screen attack timer - indicator for grapple hook being attached to something - enemy pose states - indicator for when slow auto-scrolling is active - autoscroller timer - boss fight start countdown timer - enemy movement speed - crumble platform despawn timer - x- and y-positions for explosions (or other sprite positions) For primary enemy boxes: - all enemy body-boxes that hurt Hagane - all boss body-boxes (where they can be hurt) For secondary enemy boxes: - enemy projectile body-boxes For Hagane: - Hagane's body-box - Hagane projectile attack-boxes (including the ''full screen attack'') For the environment: - item pickup collection-boxes .
collect, analyse, categorise. "Mathematics - When tool-assisted skills are just not enough" ;) Don't want to be taking up so much space adding to posts, but might be worth mentioning and letting others know for what games 1) already some TAS work has been done (ordered in decreasing amount, relative to a game completion) by me and 2) I am (in decreasing order) planning/considering to TAS them. Those would majorly be SNES games (if not, it will be indicated in the list) I'm focusing on. 1) Spanky's Quest; On the Ball/Cameltry; Musya; Super R-Type; Plok; Sutte Hakkun; The Wizard of Oz; Battletoads Doubledragon; Super Ghouls'n Ghosts; Firepower 2000; Brain Lord; Warios Woods; Super Turrican; The Humans. 2) Secret Command (SEGA); Star Force (NES); Hyperzone; Aladdin; R-Type 3; Power Blade 2 (NES); Super Turrican 2; First Samurai. (last updated: 18.03.2018)
Aran_Jaeger
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I felt like putting a math challenge in here that I came up with for myself a long time ago, for anyone that feels like figuring out solutions to it. So the basic idea is to generalize the concept of a symmetry axis to ''symmetry curves'' (which could be done in different spaces and dimensions, I guess). But here's the concrete challenge: Given a mapping f living on the (let's say only strictly positive) reals, so f: |R^{+} -> |R, x |-> f(x):= 1/x, the task is to find the set of all continuously differentiable functions g: U -> |R, x |-> g(x) (or curves, respectively), for a (preferably large) open subset U of |R^{+}, such that for every point (x,g(x)), x in |R^{+} arbitrary in U, on this to-be symmetry curve's graph in the 2-dimensional plane |R^2 in which the graph lies, it shall hold that if one draws the unique affine function (i.e. a function h: |R^{+} -> |R of the form x |-> h(x):= a°x+b for some real constants a and b) that is (i) orthogonal in |R^2 to the graph of the slope of the function g at the point x and (ii) goes through the point (x,g(x)), there shall exist exactly 2 intersections of the graphs of h and f, and the Euclidean distance from one of these 2 points of intersections in |R^2 to (x,g(x)) needs to be the same as it is for the other. If possible, one may (try to) represent the set of solutions as a 1-parameter family. As a simple example, the identity id: U -> |R, x |-> id(x):=x, that lives on U = ]1,+infinity[ satisfies the condition as (known symmetry axis of the hyperbola and) special case.
collect, analyse, categorise. "Mathematics - When tool-assisted skills are just not enough" ;) Don't want to be taking up so much space adding to posts, but might be worth mentioning and letting others know for what games 1) already some TAS work has been done (ordered in decreasing amount, relative to a game completion) by me and 2) I am (in decreasing order) planning/considering to TAS them. Those would majorly be SNES games (if not, it will be indicated in the list) I'm focusing on. 1) Spanky's Quest; On the Ball/Cameltry; Musya; Super R-Type; Plok; Sutte Hakkun; The Wizard of Oz; Battletoads Doubledragon; Super Ghouls'n Ghosts; Firepower 2000; Brain Lord; Warios Woods; Super Turrican; The Humans. 2) Secret Command (SEGA); Star Force (NES); Hyperzone; Aladdin; R-Type 3; Power Blade 2 (NES); Super Turrican 2; First Samurai. (last updated: 18.03.2018)
Aran_Jaeger
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Oh, I see. Well yes that is what I was looking for, namely something for which one could search or choose one's ''own'' memory address, then plug it in, and then get some sort of indicator with respect to that address, thanks.
collect, analyse, categorise. "Mathematics - When tool-assisted skills are just not enough" ;) Don't want to be taking up so much space adding to posts, but might be worth mentioning and letting others know for what games 1) already some TAS work has been done (ordered in decreasing amount, relative to a game completion) by me and 2) I am (in decreasing order) planning/considering to TAS them. Those would majorly be SNES games (if not, it will be indicated in the list) I'm focusing on. 1) Spanky's Quest; On the Ball/Cameltry; Musya; Super R-Type; Plok; Sutte Hakkun; The Wizard of Oz; Battletoads Doubledragon; Super Ghouls'n Ghosts; Firepower 2000; Brain Lord; Warios Woods; Super Turrican; The Humans. 2) Secret Command (SEGA); Star Force (NES); Hyperzone; Aladdin; R-Type 3; Power Blade 2 (NES); Super Turrican 2; First Samurai. (last updated: 18.03.2018)
Aran_Jaeger
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Ah wait. You need a custom lag indicator, for a game whose lack of controller poll on a frame doesn't relate to actual gameplay lag?
Well yes, to some extent that is what I had in mind, except instead of a concrete script made for 1 game, it probably would be more generally applicable to have a tool or add-on for which one would first be searching for a memory address (in a given game) that increments every gameplay frame that one can trust or rely on, then inserts it into some script together with a condition like ''Greater Than (before)'', and then let's say one runs through the so far worked out part of a TAS and for every pair of neighboured frames, the script checks if the value of this chosen, inserted memory address strictly increased (by 1, for example) when the movie is going from 1 frame to the next, and then accordingly colours those frame lines in TAStudio red (or adds some other indicator to the frame lines) where this doesn't happen (for which I'd assume this would occur either when the timer stays frozen for 1 frame, or the timer just looped around from the maximum back to 0).
collect, analyse, categorise. "Mathematics - When tool-assisted skills are just not enough" ;) Don't want to be taking up so much space adding to posts, but might be worth mentioning and letting others know for what games 1) already some TAS work has been done (ordered in decreasing amount, relative to a game completion) by me and 2) I am (in decreasing order) planning/considering to TAS them. Those would majorly be SNES games (if not, it will be indicated in the list) I'm focusing on. 1) Spanky's Quest; On the Ball/Cameltry; Musya; Super R-Type; Plok; Sutte Hakkun; The Wizard of Oz; Battletoads Doubledragon; Super Ghouls'n Ghosts; Firepower 2000; Brain Lord; Warios Woods; Super Turrican; The Humans. 2) Secret Command (SEGA); Star Force (NES); Hyperzone; Aladdin; R-Type 3; Power Blade 2 (NES); Super Turrican 2; First Samurai. (last updated: 18.03.2018)
Aran_Jaeger
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Well I'm not so familiar with the making of Lua scripts and their limits, and showing on the screen if the current frame fulfills some condition or doesn't (or showing the current total amount of frames that let's say don't fulfill some condition up to that point) would also help, but probably not be quite as comfortable as not only knowing if the current frame is a ''progress-wise'' / ''time-wise'' lag frame (as opposed to ''controller input'' lag frames which do not necessarily coincide with the former but are the ones that Bizhawk naturally indicates with the red highlighting, at least to my knowledge), but also seeing which frames (still) contribute to these kinds of lag frames (that one usually wants to avoid) might be even more helpful. What I am imagining is some highlighting of sorts (possibly similar to or substituting the existing case with the red frame lines) of frame lines that are sown in TAStudio / the input editor window, which for example stand for the set of frames in which the screen doesn't update and stays frozen, which could possibly be equivalent to and hence identified by some memory address that behaves like a timer that increments by 1 every ''gameplay'' frame (and maybe loops around from the maximum back to 0) but stops at these ''freeze frames''. Since there is games in which the naturally highlighted red frame lines don't correspond in any form with such ''freeze frames'' whereas these would be exactly those frames that one would want to search (currently 1 by 1, going slowly through a TAS, or checking frame count differences and comparing that to a difference of the values at start and end point of a frame counter memory address to see if it amounts to the same and if not, then one knows there have to be some ''freeze frames'' inbetween in this segment) and eliminate/reduce/avoid.
collect, analyse, categorise. "Mathematics - When tool-assisted skills are just not enough" ;) Don't want to be taking up so much space adding to posts, but might be worth mentioning and letting others know for what games 1) already some TAS work has been done (ordered in decreasing amount, relative to a game completion) by me and 2) I am (in decreasing order) planning/considering to TAS them. Those would majorly be SNES games (if not, it will be indicated in the list) I'm focusing on. 1) Spanky's Quest; On the Ball/Cameltry; Musya; Super R-Type; Plok; Sutte Hakkun; The Wizard of Oz; Battletoads Doubledragon; Super Ghouls'n Ghosts; Firepower 2000; Brain Lord; Warios Woods; Super Turrican; The Humans. 2) Secret Command (SEGA); Star Force (NES); Hyperzone; Aladdin; R-Type 3; Power Blade 2 (NES); Super Turrican 2; First Samurai. (last updated: 18.03.2018)
Aran_Jaeger
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I'm not sure if this idea/request/suggestion has been mentioned yet (which it very well might have, but I didn't check the history of this thread, so please forgive me if this is redundant), but how about an additional feature or tool for Bizhawk (or technically any TASing emulator that has an input editor window) where you manually insert a given memory address together with 1 of the typical memory search filter conditions (such as a memory address value increasing or decreasing or being equal to a specific value or having changed at least n times for some chosen integer n, etc.; from 1 frame to the next frame), and once this is done, the corresponding frame lines in the input editor window/TAStudio are ran through and those for which the given memory-search-like comparison to the next frame doesn't fulfill the condition are marked as red frame line (instead of the default indication of certain frame lines with red colour, to make this indication customizable to adapt it to a given specific game). The indication wouldn't need to be a red line such as the already existing indication of frame lines in TAStudio, it could also be something parallel to it, something additional and independent from it. One idea behind this would be to quickly have an overview and identify frames with certain properties (bound to a given, chosen memory address comparison condition), such as for example some memory address value not incrementing by 1 from one frame to another for some memory address that is observed to behave or act as frame timer, to be able to comfortly detect those frames in which the game runs through an ''empty loop'' with regard to those (sub-)routines that directly correlate to making progress in the given game (such as for example the next character position update to move some character another step forwards). Maybe something like this even already exists and I just haven't found it.
collect, analyse, categorise. "Mathematics - When tool-assisted skills are just not enough" ;) Don't want to be taking up so much space adding to posts, but might be worth mentioning and letting others know for what games 1) already some TAS work has been done (ordered in decreasing amount, relative to a game completion) by me and 2) I am (in decreasing order) planning/considering to TAS them. Those would majorly be SNES games (if not, it will be indicated in the list) I'm focusing on. 1) Spanky's Quest; On the Ball/Cameltry; Musya; Super R-Type; Plok; Sutte Hakkun; The Wizard of Oz; Battletoads Doubledragon; Super Ghouls'n Ghosts; Firepower 2000; Brain Lord; Warios Woods; Super Turrican; The Humans. 2) Secret Command (SEGA); Star Force (NES); Hyperzone; Aladdin; R-Type 3; Power Blade 2 (NES); Super Turrican 2; First Samurai. (last updated: 18.03.2018)
Aran_Jaeger
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Here's a fresh WIP for a new 100% Item Collection TAS that is in the work. ^_^ The reworking process of Sniq's previous work (which wasn't made public back then as WIP and is some months old by now) on the 100% branch up to around Ridley / Lower Norfair was/is done by Nymx. Sniq's WIP came to a halt at Ridley since the fight constitutes a major time investment to properly optimize, so that one would want to make sure one is optimizing the Ridley fight with the most favourable combination of attacks which depends on ammunition and hence drops from enemies. So at the point of approaching the Ridley fight in the TAS, the next step consists of checking various drop opportunities together with their corresponding time costs or slight detour costs, which is where Sniq stopped, and wouldn't want to continue without thoroughly checking these potential options and optimize the Ridley fight possibly with unoptimal equipment, since this could lead to having to entirely rework the Ridley fight in case a concrete method would be found later on that allows to get to Ridley with more benefitial equipment at hand. The changes made by Nymx include a total of 13 frames improvement over Sniq's WIP coming from a moonfall application in Norfair, aswell as an idea to shift and help to center the screen in a time-saving way around the elevator using Moonwalk in the elevator room in Brinstar that connects to Norfair after coming back from Kraid, since the screen scrolling in this room is triggered by touching certain air tiles (they are there so that the screen wouldn't scroll to the right and unveil the open space behind the wall) so that the screen scrolling needs to catch up with Samus. Other than this, Nymx also has redone the entertainment part in Ceres and has double-checked and tried to apply new ideas and variations of Sniq's inputs throughout the covered content of the WIP, which for the very most parts according to Nymx turned out to be without success but helps as supporting work for the stability of the wanted optimality. Link to video
collect, analyse, categorise. "Mathematics - When tool-assisted skills are just not enough" ;) Don't want to be taking up so much space adding to posts, but might be worth mentioning and letting others know for what games 1) already some TAS work has been done (ordered in decreasing amount, relative to a game completion) by me and 2) I am (in decreasing order) planning/considering to TAS them. Those would majorly be SNES games (if not, it will be indicated in the list) I'm focusing on. 1) Spanky's Quest; On the Ball/Cameltry; Musya; Super R-Type; Plok; Sutte Hakkun; The Wizard of Oz; Battletoads Doubledragon; Super Ghouls'n Ghosts; Firepower 2000; Brain Lord; Warios Woods; Super Turrican; The Humans. 2) Secret Command (SEGA); Star Force (NES); Hyperzone; Aladdin; R-Type 3; Power Blade 2 (NES); Super Turrican 2; First Samurai. (last updated: 18.03.2018)
Aran_Jaeger
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Location: Bavaria, Germany
In order to skip bombs while staying inbounds, with at most 2 Missile packs together with an E-Tank and Morphball, you would need to do at least 1 of the following things: (i) Get past the 2 blocks wide and 3 blocks high bomb block wall in Parlor, the 2nd room on Zebes (from where one then could go to Brinstar and clip through the Etecoon floor and get the powerbombs down there). (ii) Get to and past the top right yellow door in Landing Site (to access the Craterian powerbombs) (iii) Get all the way to the room behind Mother Brain, coming from the Climb room, in reversed manner (to trigger the escape flag and end the game). (iv) Get to the Craterian Super Missiles or clip through the bottom right green door in Landing Site, together with clipping through the yellow door in pre-Moat room (on the way to Wrecked Ship) (to get to the usual Red Brinstar powerbombs) (v) Get bombs and somehow (inbounds) delete them from counting towards item percentage by changing the corresponding bit flag. (vi) Get past the large powerbomb block wall in Blue Brinstar (to access the Blue Brinstar powerbombs) (vii) Clip through all of the bomb block walls on the path through Gauntlet (at the top left of Landing Site) towards Brinstar (in order to access the Etecoon powerbombs). None of these things have any hints pointing at some of them being possible so far. But yes, if I had to estimate and evaluate how close some item would be to be skippable, in order to achieve 12%, then bombs would be a good candidate. Other aspects that have been thought about and were tried out for the purpose of finding a breakthrough that would lead to 12% are: (1) Pulling off an Elevator-CF-Flashsuit with an upwards moving elevator instead of a downwards one (this seemed by far the closest thing to being possible, but no ideas worked out). (2) Making Missile hits and or Super Missile hits count twice (in order to reduce the amount of required ammunition expansions) when they hit Mother Brain 1, for which there is 2 mechanics (Super Missiles consisting of 2 projectiles that can separate from each other and hit twice in the case of hitting environmental blocks, and the other mechanic is one that prevents Samus projectiles from vanishing upon contact as long as they are touching certain unresponsive enemies) that (under certain circumstances) would hint at this being possible provided some additional key element was found. (3) Reducing Mother Brain's rainbow beam damage from 300 by at least 2 damage to 298 or lower in order to survive with 299 health, skipping another Tank. (4) Finding a new way to underflow ammunition (or finding a way to underflow health), possibly by combining already existing mechanics that drain or reduce the amount of currently carried ammunition. (5) Somehow making Mother Brain think Samus carries Varia without actually having the suit, in order to trick the rainbow beam into doing 300 damage as opposed to 600. On the other hand side, provided that variations of 13% that involve the underflow are candidates for new low% submissions, one could aswell compare those 5 options (Chargeless PB-PB, Chargeless PB-Speed, Chargeless PB-Ice, Chargeless PB-X-Ray, Charge-Speed) and check which is the fastest. But then again due to moonfall applications, the existing 13% TAS can be sped up.
collect, analyse, categorise. "Mathematics - When tool-assisted skills are just not enough" ;) Don't want to be taking up so much space adding to posts, but might be worth mentioning and letting others know for what games 1) already some TAS work has been done (ordered in decreasing amount, relative to a game completion) by me and 2) I am (in decreasing order) planning/considering to TAS them. Those would majorly be SNES games (if not, it will be indicated in the list) I'm focusing on. 1) Spanky's Quest; On the Ball/Cameltry; Musya; Super R-Type; Plok; Sutte Hakkun; The Wizard of Oz; Battletoads Doubledragon; Super Ghouls'n Ghosts; Firepower 2000; Brain Lord; Warios Woods; Super Turrican; The Humans. 2) Secret Command (SEGA); Star Force (NES); Hyperzone; Aladdin; R-Type 3; Power Blade 2 (NES); Super Turrican 2; First Samurai. (last updated: 18.03.2018)
Aran_Jaeger
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Joined: 10/29/2014
Posts: 176
Location: Bavaria, Germany
It might be worthwhile to point out that the actual ending (if one plays back the movie) doesn't contain this death at the ship and instead as usual advances to the credits, which was edited in the video.
collect, analyse, categorise. "Mathematics - When tool-assisted skills are just not enough" ;) Don't want to be taking up so much space adding to posts, but might be worth mentioning and letting others know for what games 1) already some TAS work has been done (ordered in decreasing amount, relative to a game completion) by me and 2) I am (in decreasing order) planning/considering to TAS them. Those would majorly be SNES games (if not, it will be indicated in the list) I'm focusing on. 1) Spanky's Quest; On the Ball/Cameltry; Musya; Super R-Type; Plok; Sutte Hakkun; The Wizard of Oz; Battletoads Doubledragon; Super Ghouls'n Ghosts; Firepower 2000; Brain Lord; Warios Woods; Super Turrican; The Humans. 2) Secret Command (SEGA); Star Force (NES); Hyperzone; Aladdin; R-Type 3; Power Blade 2 (NES); Super Turrican 2; First Samurai. (last updated: 18.03.2018)
Aran_Jaeger
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Joined: 10/29/2014
Posts: 176
Location: Bavaria, Germany
Quick! Everyone vote 'Yes' to thwart the goal of the TAS!
But then the TAS would not fulfill its goals anymore, and.... would need to be rejected. Well played, adelikat :)
collect, analyse, categorise. "Mathematics - When tool-assisted skills are just not enough" ;) Don't want to be taking up so much space adding to posts, but might be worth mentioning and letting others know for what games 1) already some TAS work has been done (ordered in decreasing amount, relative to a game completion) by me and 2) I am (in decreasing order) planning/considering to TAS them. Those would majorly be SNES games (if not, it will be indicated in the list) I'm focusing on. 1) Spanky's Quest; On the Ball/Cameltry; Musya; Super R-Type; Plok; Sutte Hakkun; The Wizard of Oz; Battletoads Doubledragon; Super Ghouls'n Ghosts; Firepower 2000; Brain Lord; Warios Woods; Super Turrican; The Humans. 2) Secret Command (SEGA); Star Force (NES); Hyperzone; Aladdin; R-Type 3; Power Blade 2 (NES); Super Turrican 2; First Samurai. (last updated: 18.03.2018)
Aran_Jaeger
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Joined: 10/29/2014
Posts: 176
Location: Bavaria, Germany
[quote Chanoyu]Thanks for explaining. So if I get it right, the whole interior of the rectangle does not really matter for the In Bounds rule; if Samus was somehow hiding in the floor and still within the rectangle that would be allowed?[/quote] Yes, exactly. And I strongly assume that this ruling (at least regarding the bodybox of the controlled character, not necessarily for how a ruling deals with projectiles or usually invisible collision checkboxes regarding said character) is a canonical and commonly shared definition that separates inbounds from garbage wonderland that usually surrounds such (aswell mostly rectangular, or even aswell multiples of 16 by 16 tiles large) areas amongst dozens of 2D platformers.
collect, analyse, categorise. "Mathematics - When tool-assisted skills are just not enough" ;) Don't want to be taking up so much space adding to posts, but might be worth mentioning and letting others know for what games 1) already some TAS work has been done (ordered in decreasing amount, relative to a game completion) by me and 2) I am (in decreasing order) planning/considering to TAS them. Those would majorly be SNES games (if not, it will be indicated in the list) I'm focusing on. 1) Spanky's Quest; On the Ball/Cameltry; Musya; Super R-Type; Plok; Sutte Hakkun; The Wizard of Oz; Battletoads Doubledragon; Super Ghouls'n Ghosts; Firepower 2000; Brain Lord; Warios Woods; Super Turrican; The Humans. 2) Secret Command (SEGA); Star Force (NES); Hyperzone; Aladdin; R-Type 3; Power Blade 2 (NES); Super Turrican 2; First Samurai. (last updated: 18.03.2018)
Aran_Jaeger
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Joined: 10/29/2014
Posts: 176
Location: Bavaria, Germany
[quote Chanoyu]If you don't mind my asking, could you elaborate on why glitching through a locked door (at 23:59) is considered In Bounds? It seems unintuitive to me.[/quote] Sure thing. So the inbounds rectangle is the same range as what is shown in the room's visualization here: https://wiki.supermetroid.run/Butterfly_Room Or in more detail, here is a screenshot from the game's editor: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/171753856378732544/417787773055926284/Plasma_Beach_grey_door_room.png In here you can see the transition tiles marked with ''01'' leading to the room to the right. If Samus' bodybox's right-most edge (located at some vertical axis in the subpixels of some pixel) would move for even just a single frame past the right-most pixel (to which the subpixel range in x and y each from 0 to 65535 corresponds, i.e. some squared subpixel range, but not a single subpixel smaller or larger than those extremal subpixel range values at which point the current subpixel position in x and y would then correspond to a different pixel location and not the same anymore), i.e. past the largest x subpixel position that corresponds to this right-most pixel which would be the subpixel value 65535, then at this point the inbounds area would have been (partially, but that is sufficient) surpassed which isn't allowed. And this never happens. Also I'll have to update/fix that wiki description there ( https://wiki.supermetroid.run/Out_of_Bounds ), because with a definition like in there you wouldn't be allowed to start the game at Ceres (due to non-loose elevator rides moving Samus through OoB areas slightly), nor touch many existing door transitions since Samus' bodybox while a transition is running can be shifted past the transition tiles of doors (even though Samus cannot move or do anything during this process, her bodybox would still pass those limits). Furthermore, Samus solid-tiles-ignoringly (which the higher priority of aligning Samus to solid enemies instead allows) moves through the same door-shell in order to trigger the door transition using the collision checkbox from a walljump check in the previously accepted any% TAS: https://youtu.be/SlpcMQ6JKzU?t=1071 To help your intuition: Just imagine Samus shot open the door-shell and enters the door, since in that case, Samus wouldn't have went further away from the boundaries of inbounds either in order to access the door. And the tile-structure has no bearing on the limits of the inbounds area. [quote Habreno]Indeed. In short, you can leave the room's boundaries as long as the minimap stays on the same square. Or to put it in other terms, you can go OOB or into the room walls as long as you're still in a valid minimap square.[/quote]Note that the Mini-Map (which isn't even updating in its usual manner during certain events, mainly during boss fights) can only be seen as supporting measurable indicator regarding the limitations of where Samus is allowed to go, but is not the determining factor (as it could possibly be manipulated or tricked; one has to be careful about such).
collect, analyse, categorise. "Mathematics - When tool-assisted skills are just not enough" ;) Don't want to be taking up so much space adding to posts, but might be worth mentioning and letting others know for what games 1) already some TAS work has been done (ordered in decreasing amount, relative to a game completion) by me and 2) I am (in decreasing order) planning/considering to TAS them. Those would majorly be SNES games (if not, it will be indicated in the list) I'm focusing on. 1) Spanky's Quest; On the Ball/Cameltry; Musya; Super R-Type; Plok; Sutte Hakkun; The Wizard of Oz; Battletoads Doubledragon; Super Ghouls'n Ghosts; Firepower 2000; Brain Lord; Warios Woods; Super Turrican; The Humans. 2) Secret Command (SEGA); Star Force (NES); Hyperzone; Aladdin; R-Type 3; Power Blade 2 (NES); Super Turrican 2; First Samurai. (last updated: 18.03.2018)
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