TASVideos

Posted: 6/29/2016 9:57 PM

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Arc

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It will take only a few days to do it. The level 5 boost saves 204 frames before the boss. But, I'm going to lose some time on the boss. None of the enemies spawn, but the armor also doesn't spawn. I need to take damage to deliver attack #6 of 8 on the boss, but now I can't. Most of the work for the new movie is fighting the boss. The damage boost is easy. Edit: I found a good method for the boss fight. Level 5 is 195 frames faster. It's no longer possible to manipulate the platform. It spawns when you reach a certain point. I tried to damage boost on the level that has the platform, but it wasn't working. Edit: Right now it looks like the boosts will save about 500 frames overall. Hoping for 8:09.XX or better. There's some work to do on level 6.

Posted: 6/29/2016 12:23 AM

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Arc

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Very impressive discoveries. I gave up on wall boosting too quickly. I tried the same idea, but not in those spots. I focused more on testing the right side of both levels. I'll get to work incorporating the boosts into a new movie.

Posted: 6/28/2016 3:48 AM

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Arc

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I found a solution! Death Mountain is finished! 43 frames faster! http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/31889946277063253 The winning solution: -I saved time fighting the first orange daira. After the first whirlwind attack, I walked through it and did the second whirlwind from the right side. Doing so killed it 6 frames faster. That gave me the 4 frames I needed to skip another 21-frame cycle on the death screen. Ideas that failed, for those who like to read: -I tried the red daira idea first, but, indeed, the only way to make it work was to not get the 100 XP. It doesn't throw a projectile axe until it also has a fully extended hand-axe, and the hand-axe has a longer reach than Link's sword. I could still make a kill after it releases the projectile axe with movement skills, but the projectile hits only a few frames later. -I would bypass the first orange daira, intending to kill it on the way back. This way would save a 21-frame cycle, but then I assumed it would take at least 27 frames to kill it. Even if it were only 21, it wouldn't save time. -I went back to the laggy room with the octoroks and goriya. I tried every way to get a swordbeam on the third octorok, but there was no way. Note: The goriya lag frames ultimately did not result in any time loss, nor did the 1 frame I had to wait to manipulate a bot's position, because of the 21-frame cycle. -I tried delaying the level up (184 frames) and changing nothing else. I still needed 4 frames, and so I think that time in the menu doesn't count toward the cycle. -I considered getting another 50-bag + 20 XP so I wouldn't have to fight the orange daira. I would have needed to change a lot of things, and it probably wouldn't work anyway. I also considered the 'nuclear option' of not getting Attack 2, but that looked like it would fail long-term.

Posted: 6/25/2016 8:13 PM

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Arc

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I've learned that 1 or 2 lost frames are irrelevant anyway. Did you know that the death screen has a 21-frame rule? I played through to the hammer to make sure the plan would work. If I could take the deathblow from the axe 4 frames earlier (and still land on the hammer), the death screen would end 21 frames earlier. I was 28 or 29 frames ahead at this point, as expected. But the death sequence always ends on frame 20200, regardless of when I take the deathblow. I tested it by splicing in 15 frames where I do nothing on the elevator. Still 20200. In the current run, the death sequence ends on frame 20222. So, I'm only 22 frames ahead. If I could get hit by the axe at least 4 frames earlier, then the death sequence would end on 20179. Then I would be 43 frames ahead. Shifting levels or kills around could bring the whole sequence into play... 4-25-46-67-88-109-130-151-172-193-214 Gotta reevaluate everything now. Edit: I have an idea. I'll try to have the red daira at the elevator throw an axe right as I kill it. Then the axe would hit Link right as he exits the screen. I take the necessary damage, but there's no damage animation on the next screen. In testing, I was able to get through the second orange daira 9 frames faster without the damage hit. That gives me 5 frames if I need them to manipulate the elevator red daira. This idea looks like it might work, and it might be awesome.

Posted: 6/22/2016 3:44 AM

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Arc

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I spent the last few days at Death Mountain 2. It's the screen with the octoroks and blue goriya. This screen has to be one of the most difficult in this game or any game. The best I can do is lose 1 extra lag frame. The current run has 5 lag frames in that room, whereas the best I can do is 6 lag frames. I can't copy/paste the current input because the goriya isn't acting the same way. In particular, I can't get the early second boomerang throw to the left. I've tried just about everything possible in this room. What really slays my soul is how that 6th octorok spawns at the end if you kill the first 3 octoroks, and so that option becomes completely unavailable. So I've tried everything with the goriya's movement and throws and this option is the best I can find. There may be 1 or 2 theoretical frames of improvement if anyone wants to try. http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/31756604579558494 Overall status currently: 1 frame improved in Saria 2 (Red Woman subpixels) 2 frames improved in Death Mountain 1 (removed lag frames) -1 frame lost in Death Mountain 2 (unsolved lag frame) 27 frames improved in Death Mountain 13 (expected from not killing the daira) -- 29 frames The other DM screens don't seem as difficult, and so looking into the daira subpixels that you mentioned should be the next big issue, followed by the elevator.

Posted: 6/17/2016 8:53 PM

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Arc

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Inzult wrote:

Subpixel is reset upon entering a new screen; does not seem relevant for TAS purposes (possibly just for positioning on elevator or picking up items)

I saved 1 frame healing at The Red Woman's house because of subpixel position. In the current run, Link is at X-position 129.128. I used X-position 129.000. I'll fool around with the elevator subpixels at Death Mountain since that's still a bit of a mystery.

Posted: 6/15/2016 4:49 PM

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Arc

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It's complex. I need 300 XP total. I have 89 + 70 + 100 = 259. If I don't heal, I might need to kill the daira for the 70 XP. If I try to get 41 XP from stabbing/killing small enemies in the way, I'd have 7 stabs to use. My small count is at 1, so the 5th small enemy would drop a 50. (Without a bag drop, they don't give enough XP.) But, I'd have to waste some stabs on achemen. The only real option would be to get 30 XP from a blue goriya, but I might as well kill the daira instead. The whole idea of no-healing doesn't really work, it seems. If I heal, then I can use swordbeam to get 41 XP from killing small enemies without losing time. I'm ready to declare the healing method the winner and take the sure 27 frames, but it was worth going through both options to be sure.

Posted: 6/15/2016 1:14 AM

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Arc

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To heal, or not to heal, that is the question. Healing takes 112 frames. If I heal and don't kill the second orange daira, I have a guaranteed result of being 27 frames faster. If I don't heal, then I would try to avoid all of the small enemies at Death Mountain. Killing only the 3 dairas would give me enough experience for the levels needed. If it all went perfectly, I'd save the 112 frames. But, it looks like there are at least 5 screens in which small enemies might get in the way. In a quick test I did, I lost 14 frames when I had to front-stab a small enemy that was in the way. So we take (112-27)/14 and the question becomes could I get through Death Mountain front-stabbing 6 or fewer small enemies?

Posted: 6/14/2016 3:10 AM

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Arc

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Link to video The Jump Cave experience idea works. I leave with 89 XP instead of 29. After you subtract the 29 frames for Life Cancel, the frame counts are still equal. But the extra XP should mean that I save time on the second orange daira later. It looks like you spent a lot of time getting the jump damage boost to work. For now, I did exactly what you did. It appears that the frames where you stand still doing nothing before moving left are necessary to manipulate the ache's movement. Otherwise, it wants to fly back to the left. And then the timing and positioning of the damage boost appear to have almost no room for error.

Posted: 6/11/2016 2:44 AM

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Arc

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Yeah, I think this way works. I had hoped for an extra Life Cancel, but it ends up as 3 Life Cancels either way. The reason is that the current last crystal is a Cancel, whereas the new way is an Accept. So a Life Cancel becomes forced at Thunderbird. Current: Maze - Attack 4 (1000) [0] Maze - Life 2 Cancel (50) Maze C - Attack 5 (2000) [0] Sea - Life 2 Cancel (50) Sea C- Magic 6 Cancel (2200) Rock - Attack 6 (3000) [0] Rock - Life 2 Cancel (50) Rock C - Magic 6 Cancel (2200) (next is 5000) New: Maze C - Attack 4 (1000) [0] Sea - Life 2 Cancel (50) Sea C - Attack 5 Cancel (2000) [0] Rock - Life 2 Cancel (50) Rock C - Attack 5 (2000) [0] T-Bird - Life 2 Cancel (50) I'm about to start playing. At Death Mountain, I accept that I need to kill the first orange daira and the red one, but I'm not sure about the orange daira at the Hammer. I'm thinking I could try to get a 50 p-bag drop with minimal/no time loss in the Jump Caves and then just try to damage through the daira without going for the kill. I'm still not sure about sword beam. I can wait until I see how the Jump Caves go.

Posted: 6/9/2016 5:19 AM

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Arc

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I'm back thinking about XP macros. I checked the options for the boots/kid. Now I'm looking at Sea Palace options. Current: Maze - Attack 4 (1000) Maze - Attack 5 (2000) Sea - Magic 6 Cancel (2200) Rock - Attack 6 (3000) Rock - Magic 6 Cancel (2200) After looking again at the idea of doing Gooma before Flute, I see: Maze - Attack 4 (1000) Sea - Attack 5 Cancel (2000) *reset to 0* Rock - Attack 5 (2000) Suddenly we have (184+29=) 213 frames. Boss fight changes would be: Gooma - A4 instead of A5 = 8 hits Rebonack II - A4 instead of A5 = 2+2 hits Barba/Volvagia - A4 instead of A6 = 20 hits Thunderbird - A5 instead of A6 = 8 hits 40 hits. This idea is my last shot at having something actually work in the XP macros.

Posted: 6/8/2016 4:55 AM

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Arc

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Maze - Attack 4 (1000) Sea - Attack 5 (2000) Rock - Magic 6 (2200) So I would get (29+29+61=) 119 frames in exchange for (8+8+8=) 24 more boss hits. So it should almost certainly be faster.

Nevermind, it was all a waste of time. The right drop isn't possible without Reflect on the wizzrobes. The current experience macros are best, I think. I'll look over the options one more time though.

Posted: 6/8/2016 3:20 AM

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Arc

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Interesting idea there. I could have 4-4-1 at the end of Island. That would also save 29 frames by avoiding the Attack 4 cancel. But a whole death sequence takes about 337 frames. Add 83 frames walking to the Red Ironknuckle to strike the death blow. So we need to make up (420-29=) 391 frames. I went through the scenarios that play out afterward and death takes too much time, even if we didn't need Magic 5 in Sea. Theoretically I could still use Reflect on wizzrobes and get Magic 5 before Carock without death. But then we walk out of Maze at 5-5-1, like the current run, but slower. On the way to the Hammer, would it be a waste of time to try to get experience from small p-bags instead of dairas? Or do dairas need to get gutted for being in Link's way?

Posted: 6/7/2016 7:23 PM

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Arc

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I didn't realize that there were two magic cancels that I'd avoid. The current route from the Maze is Maze - Attack 4 (1000) Maze - Attack 5 (2000) Sea - Magic 6 Cancel (2200) Rock - Attack 6 (3000) Rock - Magic 6 Cancel (2200) What I proposed in the previous post was Maze - Attack 4 (1000) Sea - Attack 5 (2000) Rock - Magic 6 (2200) So I would get (29+29+61=) 119 frames in exchange for (8+8+8=) 24 more boss hits. So it should almost certainly be faster. Another idea I looked at was Maze - Attack 4 Cancel (1000) Sea - Magic 6 (2200) Rock - Attack 4 (1000) Rock - Attack 5 Cancel (2000) Here I would get (184+61=) 245 frames but it means (20+11+32+20=) 83 more boss hits. It has to be slower than the first idea. The problem is Rebonack II and Barba force 1000 points before the Rock crystal; otherwise it could have been worth (184+184+61=) 429 frames for 95 boss hits. I've been accepting 3-5-1 as necessary at the Maze. I'll check if there's any possibility of working with 2-5-1. But the likely macro-XP route is the 3-5-1 route that ends 5-6-1. Once it's settled I'll start planning the micro-XP route. Then I can play.

Posted: 6/7/2016 5:11 AM

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Arc

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Inzult wrote:

If you can get the bots and bats to behave, I'd imagine you can save time here.

I'll have to see how much fighting is necessary in Death Mountain. Theoretically I would want to avoid fighting as much as possible until I get Downstab. I just need to end up with Attack 3 and Magic 5 by the end of Island Palace, assuming that there's no creative way to go 4-4 instead. One idea for possibly slightly improving the experience route is not is getting Attack 4 from Carock followed by Attack 5 from the Maze crystal. If I instead get Attack 4 at the Maze crystal, I get Attack 5 at the Sea crystal and Magic 6 at the Rock crystal. (Canceling Magic 6 would force Attack 6 at Thunderbird.) Although I would have to fight Gooma/Barba/Thunderbird at a lower Attack level, I would save 29 frames from not having to take an additional level cancel. And, what makes it worth considering, is that this way also may not require casting Reflect on the 2 wizzrobes in Maze Island, which appears to take about 61 frames. 90 frames v. 8 extra hits on each of the 3 bosses?

Posted: 6/6/2016 3:02 AM

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Arc

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The plan is 1. Convert the game to math ✓ 2. Check the travel route 3. Check the experience route 4. Gameplay Step 1 is done. It's a big spreadsheet like this:

Step 2 is in progress. -I checked the current method of restarting after Midoro Palace (Swamp), and it is better than walking straight to Island Palace by about 350 frames. -I did a rough estimate comparing the current method of backtracking after getting the flute to backtracking after defeating Gooma in Sea Palace. It was too close to call. The differences both add up to about 4550 frames. I'll probably end up having to play both routes. -I wonder whether it's really necessary to do the healing lady in Saria, even though Link needs only 2 seconds. I know it means no sword beam. -I'm thinking about a few creative longshots but don't expect them to work. The experience route is where there are more likely to be improvements.

Posted: 6/1/2016 1:50 AM

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Arc

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Inzult wrote:

I'm a bit surprised the elevator position is still bad. I spent quite a bit of time trying to eke out every pixel.

After more testing today, I learned that although I do improve the positioning, I don't save any frames. I didn't know that the game would screw me. I improved the positioning by more than a full pixel, but then the game forces me to walk an extra pixel before the black transition screen appears. Maybe it's different at a leftward exit; I haven't tried. This image sums it up (Inzult is the top 2, I'm the bottom 2):

I'll take anything you guys have and see if I can find a use for it. Thank you for the tips. I'll examine every aspect that there is to examine. I'll post notes and WIPs regularly.

Posted: 5/31/2016 5:12 AM

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Arc

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After a 12-year break, I'm planning another attempt at the non-glitched run. Let's get all three of our names on this thing as co-authors, or four+ if anyone else has some hot tips. I'm just getting start preparing, but I tested Link's elevator positioning and found that it wasn't optimal. So already that's a few frames saved on each elevator. Next I'm going to investigate the leveling plan. It might be a while before I actually start playing. I could use notes, memory addresses, scripts, etc. Particularly something to help with the darkness in the caves. I have the addresses mentioned earlier in the thread. Thanks.

Posted: 5/18/2016 8:13 PM

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Arc

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Thank you for the wows. No, I have not had any contact with AnS.

Posted: 4/8/2016 5:11 PM

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Arc

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Disappearing olives weren't much of an issue. A more annoying problem was the olive counter. The count typically increments by 3-5 olives at a time. One time it went up by 6 (from 8 to 14). The game needs some sort of break from the continuous input in order to update the counter. It becomes a problem when you're ready to leave the screen. If you collect an olive but the counter hasn't updated when you go through the door, the olive won't count. So when I was ready to leave the screen, I had to slow down for a few frames so that the last olive I collected could register. Yeah, I've been recording with Camtasia for about 12 years. It still can't do 60 FPS. I concur that 30 FPS sucks.

Posted: 3/31/2016 3:26 AM

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Arc

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What happens if you fight Cerberus on the right side of the room: Link to video I'm 1219 frames ahead entering Cerberus's room. I should finish the game this weekend.

Posted: 3/23/2016 5:51 PM

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Arc

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Thank you, Foda. The movement trick is useful on screens in which you start with leftward momentum but want to go to the right. Typically when you enter a screen and are moving left, your speed starts at 240. So when you go 2 to the right per frame, the pattern is 240-242-244-246-248-250-252-254-000-002-004-...-127 We knew that swinging the sword instantly sets your speed to 000. When you swing when you're on the ground, you stay at 000 for 17 frames, until the attack animation finishes. (Generally useless.) When you jump on one frame and then swing on the next frame, your speed is locked at whatever it was until the attack animation finishes. (Generally sucks.) However, if you press A and B on the same frame, you set your speed to 000, get in the air, but do not have the attack animation. So the speed pattern goes immediately from 240 to 000, but you can increase your speed on the next frame. 240-000-002-004-...-127 I'm 1019 frames ahead now. I gained time on every screen. +4 frames on Argolis 1 +2 frames on Argolis Portal 1 +1 frame on Argolis 2 +2 frames on Argolis Portal 2 +1 frame on Argolis 3 +2 frames on Argolis Portal 3 +17 frames on Fragment of Love 1 +41 frames on the return to Argolis 3 (a beautiful suicide) +2 frames on Pegasus +47 frames on Attica 1 (it's faster to go to the right)

Posted: 3/22/2016 1:45 AM

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Arc

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WIP3: http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/29712030915008834 Entering Argolis now. 900 frames faster. (Was 843 frames after WIP2.) Differences: +4 frames at the ocarina +2 frames in the dark room +6 frames second visit to Laconia 1 +9 frames second visit to Laconia 2 -4 frames Siren fight (worse enemy spawn) +27 frames Graeae fight -1 frame third visit to Laconia 1 (worse enemy spawn) +3 frames third visit to Laconia 2 +6 frames Arcadia 6 +5 frames Arcadia 7 Bad news: There's a movement trick that I wasn't aware of until now that saves 7 frames per use. Foda and Kyman weren't using it. I counted 9 screens where I could have used it up to this point. I can't go back and splice it in because it changes the enemy spawns. I would have to start over near the beginning of the game. It took me almost 2 months to collect olives, so I'm not going to redo it. If you're reading this post in 2026 and working on an improvement, keep it in mind. I should make rapid progress the rest of the way.

Posted: 3/15/2016 6:51 PM

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Arc

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Philosophically, I think that artificial intelligence requires the ability to think in all of the ways that humans can think. In a Turing test, a bot can fairly easily mimic a human in knowledge and problem solving. (A human and bot would answer 'what is the atomic number of hydrogen' or 'what is 2+2' the same way.) Creativity is where AI falls short, at least for now. If you ask a human to 'list some creative uses for a paper clip,' you will get answers like a fish hook, lock pick, earring, etc. A Turing test bot won't respond that way. At best, it will say something like, 'how about you list some creative uses for a paper clip.' More likely it will say something irrelevant. Specific to TASing, even a run generated completely by a bot isn't really AI. We can program a bot to find faster solutions, but what about creativity? A bot playing the SMB3 airships wouldn't bounce off of the cannonballs to obtain 99+ lives magnificently. Brain Age is a good test of AI. Could it create (on its own) a beautiful drawing? Could it draw something funny? Could it draw something sad? Until it can create a Brain Age TAS the way humans can (original ideas, including art, humor, emotions), it's not really AI to me.

Posted: 3/13/2016 4:38 AM

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Arc

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WIP 2 is finally here. I'm (almost) at the ocarina. http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/29514842737322349 Saved frames: 121 frames total from the start through getting the sword. 4 frames on the harp screen. 126 frames on the Cyclops screen. 1 frame on the third Laconia screen. 591 frames total from collecting olives faster. 843 frames faster total (~14 seconds). I found a solution to the previous sad fail. Three enemies/olives with a single slash:

On the Cyclops screen, I improved the damage boost method, character movement, and the boss fight.

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