TASVideos

Posted: 12/31/2020 12:15 AM

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Arc

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I've been thinking about which way would be most entertaining to TAS 100%. I think it's best not to do any serious gamebreakers, because if people are watching 100%, I think that they want to explore of whole game "in peace" without graphical corruption or other glitches that would make the game not "authentic." But otherwise it would be done as fast as possible, meaning warps are ok. And then for defining 100%, I think it should be: -Attack/Magic/Life-8 -All Heart/Magic Containers -All Link Dolls -All inventory items -All quest MacGuffins -All spells -All sword techs -All keys -All bosses -All palaces Exempt jars, fairies, and P-Bags because they are potentially infinite.

Posted: 12/30/2020 5:37 AM

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Arc

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I think that the warpless movie should be left alone as it is without the crystal glitch. Change the branch label to 'skipless' or add 'all palaces' to it, if necessary. The primary reason is that using the crystal glitch would go against the very reason that the warpless branch exists: to beat the game without skipping parts of it. The glitched branch completely breaks the game. The warps (any%) branch skips whatever can be skipped without turning the game into a mess. Using the crystal glitch in warpless would essentially turn it into a slightly longer version of the warps branch. Another reason is that the newly published warps movie is now more different from the warpless movie than it was before. Using the crystal glitch in the warpless movie would make the two movies more similar. The reason to have different branches of a game is that they "offer compelling differences" (per Judge Guidelines). It would not make sense to make the movies more similar since the reason for the difference is not a 'flaw' in the warpless movie. The warpless movie was intentionally made to be longer to show more of the game, specifically more physical locations (towns, encounters, and palaces). Can you imagine if there were three Zelda II branches and none of them had the fight against Volvagia? That would be a crime against humanity. An additional reason is that the fairy encounters, which are almost impossible to get, would be lost in a new warpless movie using the crystal glitch. The fairy encounters are an extraordinary technical achievement (by FatRatKnight). Even Zelda II fans might not be aware that it's possible to get fairy encounters in the Valley of Death because they are so rare. The TAS is likely the only time anyone will ever see them. Again, it is a compelling difference. It would be a major loss if they simply disappeared from the movie. And so, to me it would make the most sense to leave the warpless (aka skipless) branch as it is and focus instead on the fourth potential branch, which would be 100%. The nature of a 100% branch would make it significantly different than the other three branches, including warpless.

Posted: 12/30/2020 2:55 AM

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Arc

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Kung Knut wrote:

Nominating for Submission text of 2020. I saw the movie playing in my head while reading. Amazing work. Oh, and the TAS was great, too. Best this year in my opinion. Thanks a million for making this. And I too would love to see a 100% TAS. A question: What happens if Link attempts to leave a 7th crystal? How does it affect inventory screen and Great palace entry?

Thanks. It's good to hear from people who really enjoy the game and appreciate the effort that went into the movie. I'm considering a 100% movie even though it's a lot of work. That's a good question, but unfortunately the answer is uninteresting. Nothing happens if Link tries to place a 7th crystal. Link doesn't stop at the statue. Link starts with 6 crystals and has 0 left after placing all 6. The inventory doesn't go to -1 (or 255). I'm not totally sure how the Great Palace's binding-force works, but I assume that it checks that Link's crystal inventory = 0.

Posted: 12/29/2020 5:57 PM

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Arc

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AngerFist wrote:

I couldnät bring myself reading all of Arc's text but I wonder how long it took to write all of it. This tas signifies highest level of planning and tasing. Thoroughly enjoyed this run! Easy yes vote. What's next? 100% run? :P

Thanks. I can only estimate, but I think that it took about 22 hours to write the submission text. I might do 100% at some point.

Posted: 12/28/2020 2:45 PM

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Arc

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Discera wrote:

Could re-visting be enhanced? I ask this because I can not figure if the tradeoff will affect overall speed (i.e. leveling up Attack/Magic early in the run)?

In theory I could do Parapa Palace 6 times. But there are essential items in Palaces 2, 3, and 5, and it's faster to finish those palaces after getting their items rather than restart and do Palace 1.

Posted: 11/27/2020 5:14 PM

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Inzult wrote:

There is also the key on the ledge behind the red ironknuckle, on the route to the flute.

In warps there's really no time to fool around though. The red ironknuckle's key is the best possibility, but it would take more time than the level cancels. Warps is pretty much settled, I think. In warpless it would be perfect if only Link could jump high enough to reach it. But there is another key we could get in warpless.

It just depends how long it would take to get it. If I could get it less than ~10 seconds or so, then I think that warpless would be fastest with Magic-1, which would be interesting and another significant difference between warps and warpless. I don't know if it works though. Warpless has more to look at.

Posted: 11/27/2020 1:00 AM

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Arc

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Inzult wrote:

Since there are no longer 4 doors in a row to pass in P4, it doesn't need to be rushed as quickly. Magic-5 is still required eventually, possibly for Palace 5, and definitely for Thunderbird.

I haven't look at the warpless route too deeply yet, but the necessary factor for Thunderbird is 8 magic containers rather than Magic-5. However it is true that in both movies, the reason to rush Magic-5 was to lower the Fairy cost in P4. But Magic-5 is also needed for P5... UNLESS warpless has a key that is not very far out of the way. Just an idea here, but I'm not sure there's even a need to go beyond Magic-1 in warpless if there's an easy key somewhere before P5 (those 4 level-ups take 12 seconds). But we'll deal with warpless later. Whoever judges the new any%/warps will have to deal with the publication branch possibilities. Because one could argue that it's a separate branch like Wizards & Warriors, or it directly obsoletes the any%/warps, or it obsoletes both long movies if this glitch renders warpless as an arbitrary goal. Examining the any%/warps leveling route, the main issue again is that Magic-5 no longer needs to be rushed. In fact it should be delayed as long as possible, because after getting Magic-5 we don't need anything. But, again, Magic-5 is needed for Fairy in P5. I think I'll have to do Life-2 Cancel and Attack-4 Cancel. But there will still be about 4 seconds saved from fewer level-up menus. The any%/warps should be pretty easy to do. I've got it mentally planned out now.

Posted: 11/26/2020 4:42 PM

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Arc

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The explanation in English is that Link can place a crystal in a statue, restart (Up+A) before the crystal finishes rising into the statue's forehead, then go back to the same palace and place another crystal in the statue, and repeat as many times as desired (up to 6 crystals). And, evidently, the Great Palace's barrier is programmed to check that Link holds 0 crystals, rather than checking that all 6 palaces have crystals. So Link theoretically just needs to get the minimum items needed for completion. It's somewhat similar to [956] NES Wizards & Warriors by Cardboard in 09:35.42, which is less entertaining than [929] NES Wizards & Warriors "all levels" by Cardboard in 12:14.93, in my opinion, but it is faster. I'll play it again, starting with the warps branch. But because of the item locations, it doesn't change a lot. The long child-rescue quest for Reflect is no longer needed. And there's no need to go to palace 6, which is unfortunate since Volvagia was the most entertaining boss. Link still needs the Hammer, Water of Life, Fairy, Jump, Power Glove (P2), Raft (P3), Boots (P4), and Flute (P5). And enough magic for the fairy tricks at the end. The time it takes to walk from the starting point (Zelda) to the P1 statue (with no boss) is about 1:58 (baseline). P2 from glove to crystal took 2:00 but there were 2 level-ups, so it's probably worth doing. P3 from raft to crystal took only 1:28 despite a level-up. P4 crystal will be skipped for sure because of Reflect. P5 from flute to crystal took only 1:43 and there's no restart afterward anyway. P6 wastes about 2:53 total, and so about a minute is saved here. Level 4 Attack will not be necessary anymore since there is no Volvagia fight. It looks like this movie will be mostly the same except: (1) the child rescue and Carock (4:48 combined) will be replaced with a boring walk through P1 (1:58). (2) P6 (2:53) will be replaced with a boring walk through P1 (1:58). And so the overall time of 38:38 gets cut down to around 34:54. Under 35 minutes is a good goal if no issues pop up. I'll have to check the leveling again in more detail, but it should end at Attack 3-Magic 5.

Posted: 11/22/2020 10:04 PM

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Arc

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feos wrote:

Can you elaborate on
the NESHawk core doesn’t seem to emulate Karnov correctly.

The game plays properly in QuickNES. But when I use the NESHawk core, the stage 1 inputs sync but it is graphically corrupted, like so:

Then stage 2 freezes very quickly:

Posted: 11/18/2020 2:51 AM

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Arc

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ThunderAxe31 wrote:

Hi there, I have a question. I'm watching side-by-side the RTA WR by hirexen and this submission movie, and I've noticed that the RTA run is faster in the second half of stage 3... Is there a known reason for this?

I see the problem. Thank you for bringing it up. I didn't notice that the screen is still trying to scroll vertically downward in the second half of stage 3. The constant jumping on that stage is to prevent the downward scroll. Letting it scroll down escalates into other problems. I needed to keep jumping until the end. As I put in the notes, the camera is really difficult to deal with on this stage. Fortunately the game is edit friendly. After fixing that problem, there's just enough time cut out to save two bomb cycles! Here's the improvement file: http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/67504968180428929 Stage 3 still does not look perfect because the game is not letting me start jumping (right after I get the ladder) at a spot that syncs up with the second step, even with frame-perfect jumps. It is unknown to me why the game is being more ruthless toward me there than it was to the real-time runners. However, the problem is now small enough that it would not change the final time because of the bomb cycle limitation. Improvements in this game are measured in bomb cycles (64 frames) rather than individual frames. And so, at this point I can again say that I don't know how I could make the movie any shorter. Watching side-by-side with the RTA run, stage 4 is also slower because I pick up an extra boomerang on that stage. But I make up that lost time on stage 5 since the RTA run gets the boomerang there instead. I'll correct the numbers in the submission soon.

Posted: 11/15/2020 10:41 PM

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Arc

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In my personal opinion as someone who is not a judge and does not claim to speak on behalf of the judges, It is an entertaining and well-made movie, but the issue is still whether it is complete. The ruling precedent for this branch is that it does not properly complete the game, and thus it violates the movie rules. The concept of stare decisis, i.e. respecting a previous decision as correct, exists in any community that follows laws or rules in order to ensure that everyone is treated in a fair and consistent manner over time—unless the previous ruling was a demonstrably erroneous interpretation of the rules. But I do not believe that the previous ruling was erroneous. The burden is on the author to provide a strong reason for overturning the previous ruling. I do not see enough of an argument. I believe it is true that a "bad ending" of a game can be published if it is an actual completion (there are plenty of examples on the site), but I believe that this movie should more accurately be called a "failed ending." I feel that it is similar to the Ghosts 'n Goblins failed ending, in which the player defeats the boss on the final level but cannot access the final boss without having the shield and gets a clear message that there is more to do to reach a completion state. "This weapon has not effect" = failed to get shield = failed to beat final boss. "Where is princess?" = failed to get keys = failed to beat final boss. If I were trying to argue that there is a good reason to overturn the previous ruling, (which I am not,) I would point to these 2 movies: [3168] NES Gimmick! by Aglar, Hotarubi & Samsara in 04:24.61 [1546] NES Gimmick! "100%" by Aglar & Hotarubi in 07:44.45 The shorter Gimmick movie doesn't beat the real final boss nor save the girl. But, unlike this submission, it has a clear ending—a textbook "bad ending." It goes to cutscenes and credits. Whereas Ghosts 'n Goblins and Extra Super Mario Bros both want the player to continue playing after the failed ending. One other thing that I think has been overlooked: the author says, "the game states that this is the end," but I don't think that's true, in context. The game initially says "the end," but then an ellipsis (...) appears. An ellipsis used at the end of a statement, when not quoting someone, indicates that the writer is wavering in their belief. The ellipsis signals "wait a minute, something's missing." And so arguably the game itself is saying that this is a failed ending, i.e., "I guess this is the end... wait, is it really? No, I still have to save the princess." This usage is also in stark contrast to the real ending, which definitively states -- THE END --.

Posted: 8/10/2020 4:00 PM

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Arc

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feos and I agree on the wording of this statement: "The submitted movie does use SNES Test Program as a resource to play an uninteresting type of 'game,' but TASVideos focuses on 'published video games,' and SNES Test Program is not a published video game." My concern had been language use, not really site policy. Thanks.

Posted: 8/10/2020 3:25 PM
(Edited: 7/28/2022 1:37 AM)

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Arc

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"Sports running with a fixed time, such as football, soccer, or basketball are not eligible." Soccer is a sport that runs with a fixed time. Therefore it is not eligible. If this interpretation is wrong, the wording of the rule should be clarified.

Posted: 8/10/2020 2:37 PM
(Edited: 7/28/2022 1:37 AM)

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Arc

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Memory wrote:

That would make sense if it was not for the fact that this is clearly aiming for score...

So? A soccer movie on a fixed timer is ok as long as someone racks up a lot of goals? Why even have a fixed timer rule then?

Posted: 8/9/2020 11:09 PM
(Edited: 7/28/2022 1:37 AM)

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Arc

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Samsara wrote:

The timed nature of the minigames seems to match that of [4090] C64 Decathlon "maximum score" by DrD2k9 in 09:35.02

I disagree. Yes there are multiple mini-games like Decathlon. But in this movie the mini-games are all on a fixed timer, with 'fixed timer' meaning that the player is forced to play for a predetermined amount of time. If sports games on a fixed timer like football, soccer, and basketball are not individually Vault eligible, I don't see why combining them into a single TAS would change anything. This TAS functions the same as four consecutive fixed-timer sports games.

Posted: 8/9/2020 3:13 AM

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Arc

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This game is great. All the extra little touches really add to the entertainment. The iconic coin flip is the perfect way to start it. The character doesn’t just look like Michael; he moves, acts, and sounds like Michael. It’s unfair to other games to comment on how great the soundtrack is, but the conversion of MJ’s songs to the Genesis is well-done. It’s a fun game to play. The stages are well-designed in gaming terms (except the caverns), but the MJ-related elements throughout make them especially enjoyable. Best of all is the dancing. It’s good to see that there are still multiple dance scenes in the TAS. It’s a significant part of the entertainment. I didn’t see a dancing dog, but there is just barely a dancing spider. I watched the now-obsoleted movies way back in the day (2004/2005). The optimization has greatly improved since then. As entertaining as the game is, the very old runs had some obviously “bad” movements that made them less “thrilling” than they could have been. Michael looks much “smoother” now with the latest improvements. The previous TAS was a Star, and I agree with that tier placement. The game itself typically ranks in the top 90-95% of Genesis games. The MJ aspect connects with a lot of people. Ratings for the current publication are fairly high. Personally I consider it a top-100 movie on the site (out of 2248 total). Shamone.

Posted: 8/7/2020 4:12 AM

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Arc

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Memory wrote:

Does Microsoft Word count as a game if you could find ACE in it?

What is still unclear about what I've written? If you use Word to type an essay, like most people do, you're doing work. If you and a friend used Word to see who could press the X button the most times in one minute, you'd be playing a game. If you somehow inserted your own code into Word to allow you to play pong in it, that pong would obviously be a game.

Posted: 8/7/2020 3:52 AM

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Arc

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Personally, I’m not a fan of the game. Sandbox Studios was a short-lived, low-quality developer. For a game released in 2000, the graphics are unimpressive (but colorful). The sound is among the worst I’ve ever heard in a game. I’ve seen the Disney movie, but it’s hard to follow what’s going on, because the levels all look similar and there’s no story explanation. The Disney movie came out at almost the same time as the games, and so you would expect that there was a strict production deadline. On the more positive side, the improvements to optimization make the movie more enjoyable to watch than before. The gameplay is somewhat interesting because it is not just a pure left-to-right platformer. The challenge of dealing with verticality, as well as maneuvering a llama instead of a person, helps the game stand out. The game is a reasonably short length so that the repetition doesn’t get too boring. Although the optimization is improved, I wonder whether there is some more work to do. I tested a turn-jump at the end of a level because it would be easy to compare times. And it looks like the level ended 3 frames earlier. Did the one jump I picked to test just happen to be an aberration? Is it a legit improvement of 3 frames? The current publication was initially rejected, but the Vault was created soon afterward, and the movie was placed in that tier. Current ratings are fairly low. With the improvements, some people might make a reasonable case for Moons. It is significantly faster than the real-time speedrun. Realistically though, I think it should stay in Vault. It is fast, but it still lacks that ‘wow’ factor (the game’s fault, not the author’s).

Posted: 8/7/2020 12:33 AM

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Arc

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The Family Feud TAS shows creativity well beyond what would be expected of a game-show game, and that is relevant to my position. No one would expect something like SNES Test Program to even play a game, but they should be open to the (small) possibility that someone could use it to play a game (created by the author) in an unexpected and entertaining way. This particular movie definitely does not do that. But a future movie could, in theory. Related precedent is the Super Mario World ACE, which codes custom mini-games and uses its own method of completion. What if the exact same thing had been done with SNES Test Program instead of SMW? If the site created a rule that ROMs must have been originally intended to be used as games (e.g., no test programs), I think that it would contradict the site's philosophy encouraging the creation of gaming art. I think Pokemon Plays Twitch is a related precedent, because it is the inverse of what is happening here. It took a resource intended to be used as a game (Pokemon Red) and converted it into a non-game (chat text display). It is considered a creative and technical masterpiece. The issue is that becoming a non-game places it outside the site's jurisdiction. But I'd think the inverse—converting a non-game (like a test program) into a game (through total control or otherwise) with the same level of expertise shown in PPT—would be encouraged if it meets all additional site rules.

Posted: 8/5/2020 9:52 PM

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Arc

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Memory wrote:

What do you even mean with intentionality?

The same physical act can have different meanings depending on the intent of the person doing it. A person can drive a car for Uber with the intent of doing work. A person can drive a car for NASCAR with the intent of playing a game. A person can drive a car as an actor in a film with the intent of creating art. The way I'm using 'game' is consistent with how it's used in ordinary language. There was a Simpsons episode (“Bart the Murderer”) in which Skinner became trapped under a pile of newspaper and dribbled a nearby basketball. He says, "I made a game of it. Seeing how many times I could bounce the ball in a day, then trying to break that record." Just dribbling the ball is not a game, but when he acted with intent toward a potential perfection within a set of rules, he was playing a game. The author of this movie was not trying to test an SNES; he had intent to use the resource for a game (a very bad game). Someone could take a frozen turkey and use it as a football and play a game with it. What matters is how the resource is used. I'm just saying I think that the movie should be rejected because the gameplay lacks user creativity rather than rejected for not being a game at all.

Posted: 8/5/2020 1:38 PM

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Arc

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Memory wrote:

By that logic tests in high school are a game.

Not quite. Although it wouldn't be a major stretch to say that they can be, because the concept is the same as game shows, quiz bowls, trivia games, and related variants. But typically a high school test would lack the intentionality part of the definition. Imitating the actions of a game is distinct from intentionally playing a game.

Posted: 8/5/2020 12:00 AM

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Arc

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I’m going to take the position that this movie does actually play a game, but it’s not a “proper” game that would meet the Vault standard, and it should be rejected on the basis that there is “no user creativity altering the game in any way.” A ‘game’ occurs when a player operating with intentionality within a particular set of rules could potentially achieve perfection. The easiest example to look at is the game of ten-pin bowling. Within the rules of the game, the potential perfection is a score of 300. There are more complex examples, but there is no need to go into all that. Any resource on its own is not a game. Consider a deck of playing cards. The cards are just pieces of paper until they’re given a defined role within a rule set of a card game. Likewise, SNES Test Program isn’t what you would think of as a game, but it is a resource that can become part of a game if you use it as an object within a rule set. SNES Test Program is used for a simple game, but it’s still a game. The goal is to get through all of the tests as fast as possible. Just going through all the tests might be considered ‘work,’ but adding the ‘as fast as possible’ element turns it into a game. There is an objective, perfect time possible that the movie aims to achieve. But now we get to the part where it is not a “proper” game. Because the player just presses a button to activate a very avant-garde story about flipping princesses, color changes, and innumerable stars. Most of the movie is waiting for the animations on level 2 to complete, and a small portion involves pressing buttons as quickly as possible. Essentially it is watching someone else’s art rather than creating art.

Posted: 8/4/2020 2:57 AM

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Arc

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Fortunately the site has TASes of the Genesis and SNES versions of Mickey Mania for comparison. From the original 6 levels, the NES port retains some elements of all of them except for Lonesome Ghosts. It looks like the developer of the port put a good effort into the first level (Steamboat Willie) but then made significant chops to the rest of the game. The TAS beats the real-time speedrun by about 31 seconds. It looks like the TAS does significantly better at destroying the ‘wacky contraption’ at the end of Steamboat Willie (by about 10 seconds), but it’s still the slowest part of the movie. The movie doesn’t stand out too much from a real-time attempt in terms of doing nearly impossible actions. It mainly gives the appearance of a mistake-free playthrough. As stated above, Miki can’t jump far enough to land on the bird at 0:55, and so he needs to wait for the bird to come back far enough to the left so that Miki can jump to the horizontal pole. It’s well-played. The Genesis and SNES Mickey Mania movies are in Moons, but the quality of those games is vastly superior to the NES port. Compare the final battle against Pete from The Prince and the Pauper. The Genesis and SNES versions look almost the same visually, and the audio difference is the standard Genesis ‘twang’ vs ‘clean’ SNES sound. Whereas in the NES version, the wrecking ball and Pete (sorry, I mean ‘Dong’) are much smaller and grayscale. The background is an ugly pure green. And the music is almost unrecognizable noise rather than a genuine track. The white-on-white graphics in the Moose Hunter section are also a massive reduction in quality. But the visual of the spinning tower section is reasonably interesting considering NES limitations. Perhaps it is not as smooth as The Revolution from Battletoads, but it looks more advanced than in Castelian. Also the NES version accepts input only every other frame. Overall, it’s ok by NES standards, but it came out after every official NES game, and the bootleg quality is obvious. Super Donkey Kong 2 is a similar pirate port from SNES to NES that ended up in the Vault. ‘Miki’ is a beloved character around the world, but based on everything previously stated, my opinion is that this one belongs in the Vault as well.

Posted: 8/2/2020 5:55 AM

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Arc

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tormented wrote:

This TAS doesn't achieve 100% kills on every level. I made it 20ish minutes earlier and the last level I saw ended with 99% kills. If it's true that this isn't optimal, I wonder if it is a publication-blocking hurdle. I can't imagine it accounts for many frames lost over the course of an hour-long movie, so maybe it can be excused for now.

Visually, every enemy seemed to die, but indeed the stage completion screen at 17:45 showed 134/135 enemies eliminated. Assuming the enemy can be found, I'm not sure whether it would be easy to sync the rest of the movie. Although it may be a matter of only a few frames overall, the movie seems to currently be in a state where its goal is neither fastest completion nor full completion, which is a problem.

Posted: 8/2/2020 2:59 AM

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Arc

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Before I started watching, I thought, “I hope this isn’t an LJN game.” But, sure enough, it comes from Beam and LJN. It’s a shooting gallery game very much like the author's previous work on Mechanized Attack, except it’s much longer and lacks Zapper support. The RTA timing cuts out about 9 seconds. The TAS time converted is about 58:51, compared to the RTA record of 1:00:13. The game is almost totally an autoscroller, but it’s not trivial. The game noticeably has no music, except for the occasional appearance of Mr. Saxobeat, whose song lasts for only about 20 seconds each time. It makes him a memorable character, at least. I think it was a good entertainment choice not to shoot him. The graphics are also a positive point. The boss fights look pretty impressive, especially the fight against Sijo (the ninja). The scenery initially has some variation, but the later part of the movie becomes repetitious with more street and warehouse shooting. The submission has almost no information. It would be nice to know if the author examined other routing possibilities or secret doors that may lead to alternate paths. Also, if the goal is fastest time, wouldn't it be faster to miss some enemies to avoid end of stage bonuses? I played the first stage and intentionally missed some enemies to confirm that fewer bonuses show up. But killing bad guys is entertaining, and so maybe the branch could be changed to 100%, which should qualify as a full completion and remain Vault-eligible. Overall, the game has a few more positives than expected, but it goes on too long. The nature of the game does not give the author much freedom to improve the entertainment. It should go in the Vault.

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