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I'm still experimenting with exit skimming and window manipulation. I have theories but not conclusions.
But while working on that, I managed to improve 1-2 by 8 frames and lost 0 HP (previously -3 HP). Because of that change, I then managed to improve 1-4 by 8 frames. And then because of that change, I got better RNG on 1-5 and improved that screen by another 8 frames. And so after 1-5, I've saved 24 frames and have 5 more HP. I'm replaying the whole game, so it will take a while to finish.
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Wow, getting a 14-pixel position boost and a perfectly clean run through the gauntlet is exceptional. I can see how it's theoretically possible to save a few more frames, but it seems very difficult to find the perfect timing. I tried some combos and improved on what I originally had, but nothing was close to this 38-frame improvement in 2-8 so far.
The baby dragon in 2-9 has worse RNG. I noticed that in both my original movie and yours, the exit is at position 062. But when I tried to improve your 2-9, I got an exit much further left at 046. It took an extra 21 frames to run that far. This 'exit skimming' seems like it could potentially matter in a lot of rooms.
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ktwo wrote:
Very nice job coming up with the new strats!
Thank you.
ktwo wrote:
if you have additional insight in how to manipulate the enemies other than through "running up to an enemy and just try everything", then at least I would be most interested to learn about it.
There's no universal solution. But it seems that each particular enemy has a predetermined difficulty level. For example, the troll in 2-1 seems to always be easy, or at least it has the potential to be easy. And the spider at 3-11 is always annoying. Enemies should be less of a concern in speedruns now since you can use Hold Person on any enemy on the 3rd Floor.
ktwo wrote:
this can be done 2 frames faster:
17972 D
17973 R
17974 D
17975 A
Yes, you are right. The movie can be improved by 2 frames with this technique.
ktwo wrote:
In the same final menu, you can input the final select one frame earlier.
I'm not sure how you're getting this result. Maybe you converted it to BizHawk? It doesn't work for me when I input a frame earlier.
ktwo wrote:
You pressed down at 8949. You could have pressed down 4 frames earlier (it would only result in 3 frames faster menuing though). Was that to manipulate something or just a mistake?
Yes this menu can be done 3 frames faster, but, after checking again, I don't think it was an error. Despite having Protection from Evil (PFE), Goldmoon can still take damage from the flames or arrows. I was creating delays to avoid damage/stoppage. In the notes I wrote that I could have done the room 8 frames faster, but I would have lost 2 HP.
ktwo wrote:
In 2-7, you could have gone into the menu right before the last enemy instead of doing the menu trip in 2-8. This would save you quite a bit of time in 2-7 (at least 16 frames). I understand that the RNG in 2-8 would be different and you wouldn't have "Protection against Evil" in 2-9
I definitely want PFE in 2-9. Getting 16 frames of stoppage with 0 knockback and 0 HP loss against the wraith in 2-7 is a very good result. I did a serious TAS attempt of 2-9 without PFE when I was trying a different idea. The baaz is very annoying and I had to do an attack (36 frames stopped) to get through. And then at the baby dragon, aside from the time lost getting through, I lost 6 HP.
ktwo wrote:
The spider in 3-11 is just a normal enemy, so it can be attacked (obviously by a low attack). It's equally fast to using the "hold person" spell, so it doesn't change anything for the run.
A normal attack is 3 frames faster than Hold Person. I've confirmed that I can do the spider room 3 frames faster with the low attack. But it changes the RNG of the remaining enemies, and so I'm not sure of its overall outcome on the run yet.
And so, it looks like there are 2-5 frames I can improve—maybe a few more (or less) depending on enemy RNG. I'll get it fixed and submit after the flood of submissions on 1 April.
Edit: Although enemy RNG changed in 3-14, I equaled the previous time in the room. And so it looks like it'll be 5 frames improved.
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Alyosha wrote:
Nice work, I wouldn't have thought this game was so complicated. Yes vote.
Thank you. The biggest decision in the run is deciding how to handle the Hell Gauntlet (flame room), since Goldmoon can't run through it all unprotected. The options are to switch to another character or cast protection on Goldmoon. My early idea was to switch to another character to absorb damage through the rest of the run like Randil did, but instead of switching back to Goldmoon at the end, I would let the other character(s) die and force Goldmoon back into the front position (to avoid menus). But I realized this idea was flawed because there's no way to slip through the last 2 black dragons. And so I looked at protecting Goldmoon throughout the run. Once I realized what I could do with the Hold Person spell, it was clearly the best option.
Then, knowing that I was sticking with Goldmoon throughout the run, I had to plan how to utilize her 19 HP. I could attack every enemy and take no damage, but attacking takes 36 frames. Slipping through enemies is usually faster, but it costs HP. By my count, there are 23 actual enemy 'encounters' in the whole run. And so I had to pre-plan which ones to slip through with minor HP loss and which ones to attack to avoid HP loss (because I needed at least 1 HP left at the end).
The rerecord count is relatively low because the movie is just the execution of what I had already planned in advance. I had never played this game before, but I spent a lot of time studying it before I did any recording. Randil's movie didn't look like it had 25 seconds worth of flaws. His gameplay was pretty good, especially by 2005 standards. But he didn't study the game enough. It may look like a bad action-adventure game, but I consider it an excellent strategic/tactical challenge.
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Here are the technicals for the fairy feet glitch:
004D for Link's X-Position
03D6 for Link's X-Subpixel
X-Position 248.000 is the edge of the left side of the screen.
Tap left once to reach position 247.240 (triggers exit).
Tap right next frame (warp achieved if X-Pos shows 248.000, if pressed too slow then 247.224).
X-Position 239.240 is the edge of the right side of the screen.
Tap right once to reach position 240.000 (triggers exit).
Tap left next frame (warp achieved if X-Pos shows 239.240, if pressed too slow then 240.016).
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MovieRules wrote:
If your tool-assisted movie is not faster than the non-tool-assisted world record for the same game, aiming for the same goals, your movie will be rejected.
The phrase "not faster" should be changed to "slower." Theoretically every TAS can be equaled by a human who has enough talent and dedication. It is rare that a human actually equals a TAS, but it shouldn't be held against the TAS if it happens. Whether a human can do it in reality or only in theory is the focus of sites like speedrun.com, not this site. But if a TAS is slower than a speedrun then there's a proven flaw and it warrants rejection. Whereas equaling a TAS does not prove that the TAS has a flaw.
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Are you defining 'trivial' as a movie that can be done without tool assistance?
I'd call that 'reproducible' rather than 'trivial.' In theory every TAS is reproducible, just with varying degrees of difficulty (this one is easier than others).
The triviality rule exists to filter out movies that are so straightforward, obvious, and easy to complete that they're not interesting.
Like if this movie were just 21 seconds of holding right, it would be trivial.
But I'd say that it's not trivial because it requires special non-obvious knowledge of the game to complete it in 21 seconds.
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Despite the longer length, I prefer the NFL Street 1 TAS.
Reason #1 is that NFL Street 1 emphasizes superb play within the context of meaningful football games rather than excessive Tony Hawk-esque trick challenges. The epic journey through all eight divisions leads to a greater feeling of accomplishment and completeness than playing a few random teams.
Reason #2 is that the exotic locations of the football games add greatly to the charm and sense of purposeful adventure. NFL Street 2 has little variety and dark, dreary locations.
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EZGames69 wrote:
The internet is going to make something a meme no matter what.
The criticism is aimed specifically at "reddit" memes, meaning that they don't want to see content that intentionally tries to appeal to reddit or has reddit traits. There is a cultural difference between /v/ and reddit. Reddit is about fitting in with (echoing) the norms of a community. /v/ forces people with differing views into a single room where they can't rely on reputation; the only thing that matters is the strength of their ideas.
EZGames69 wrote:
Do they also realize that GDQ runs also play “ancient” games? Because this isn’t a TASBot only thing. Do they even understand the point of GDQ?
The criticism is of using old 'pixel' games exclusively. It is a good idea to have a mix of old games and newer ones to demonstrate that TASBot can handle games on consoles like PSX, GC, Wii, etc.
EZGames69 wrote:
What kinda of genres do they want to see? Im sure there’s been TASBlocks in the past that have shown off other game genres, the problem is you have to show something that will entertain an audience, and in most cases, platformers are the better choice in that regard.
Chronologically, these are the games that have been used at GDQ:
NES - Gradius
N64 - Mario Kart 64
N64 - Super Mario 64
SNES - Super Mario World
N64 - Mario Kart 64
SNES - Super Mario World
GB - Pokemon
NES - Mega Man
GBA - Sonic Advance
GC - Ikaruga
N64 - Mario Kart 64
NES - Pwn Adventure Z
NES - Zelda II
DS - Brain Age
NES - Super Mario Bros 3
SNES - Super Mario World
GB - Super Mario Land 2
PC - VVVVVV
NES - Super Mario Bros. 1, 2 + 3
NES - Super Mario Bros. 3
NES - Galaga
NES - Gradius
NES - Super Mario Bros
NES - Mega Man
SNES - Zelda: A Link to the Past
PC - Portal
GC - Super Monkey Ball
PC - Celeste
SNES - Super Metroid
GC - F-Zero GX
PC - Mari0
GBA - Castlevania: Aria Of Sorrow
DS - Super Scribblenauts
NES - Tetris
Wii - Mario Kart Wii
PC - Celeste
NES - Super Mario Bros. 3
NES - Super Mario Bros. 2
GB - Pokemon
Platform games are generally entertaining, but the criticism is overdoing them, especially Mario. There has never been a fighting game demonstrated, for example. A heavily glitched Mortal Kombat movie would be good for GDQ purposes. Or something else like Crazy Taxi or International Superstar Soccer Deluxe that makes viewers feel that they haven't seen it before.
Memory wrote:
I disliked the lack of any real communications to the site, from submissions leading up to the event. Supposedly a lot of the communications happened within the TASBot discord itself, leading to a feeling of separation between the TASBot community and TASVideos itself.
I agree with this point. I would like to propose that future Dream Team Contests be used as one source (but not the only source) of content for future GDQ events. The timeline would be:
Brainstorm an interesting GDQ TAS idea
Set contest deadline before GDQ submission deadline
Hold the Dream Team Contest for a few months
Submit winning entry to GDQ
(Optional) Optimize winning TAS before actual GDQ event
Debut winning TAS to the world at GDQ
Submit and publish to TASVideos after GDQ
This idea seems like it would be win-win for everyone because (1) it generates TAS content specifically with GDQ in mind, (2) the TAS is completed before the GDQ submission deadline, (3) it gives everyone in the community a fair chance to have a TAS they made shown at a GDQ (if they win the contest), and (4) the competition ensures a TAS of high quality.
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The consensus feedback on /v/ was that the 2020 AGDQ TAS Block was too safe and unambitious. They are tired of seeing Mario and Pokemon all the time and suggested trying a different genre. Some of them believe that TASBot can handle only short, simple games that have few buttons to press. They want to see more than a playback of an old video. Something cool needs to happen in the TAS (Pokemon Blue had nothing cool happen). They like arbitrary code execution as long as it isn't used for reddit memes. They also suggested using some games that aren't so ancient. The zoomers watching were born around the year 2000 and didn't grow up with games from the 1980s/90s. They want the commentary to demonstrate high-level knowledge of the game rather than rag on speedrunners' inability to replicate TAS tricks. They also criticize going over the time estimate with a TAS.
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GJTASer2018 wrote:
It is even going to save time at all to try to get the values to line up the way Arc wants them to?
This shows what 007 and 009 actually mean in the game:
009 is definitely preferred.
I had found an input combination that yielded the ideal eight memory values with 007 (and had a lot of the TAS done), but now I'm going back to find a combination that yields 009 instead of 007. The full result I'm looking for is:
Address - Value
0657 - 040
0639 - 029
0631 - 018
065D - 005
0661 - 009
065F - 013
0663 - 016
0645 - 053
Edit: Changed ideal values. Also I have found this ideal combination already.
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Alyosha wrote:
It's definitely possible to get 9 and 13 to appear together.
Looks like you're right. In FCEUX, the earliest frame that I can press Start is 534. If I press Start on frame 534-539, then 009 and 013 never appear together. But if I wait until frame 540, then 009 and 013 appear together. Thank you.
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CLChambers00 wrote:
Also, I am offering a $200 bounty for the person who figures out how to get outcomes to match in original hardware and an emulator with TAS such as Bizhawk and FCEUX. If interested please send me a PM, and we can discuss the details.
I don't have the answer to how to sync an emulator with hardware. But I have been slowly working on a TAS of this game for a while. I have made many attempts at perfectly manipulating the eight essential item spawn locations. Eventually I became frustrated by the fact that I always seemed to be off on the memory value of either the Gag Factory will piece (009) or the Victory Road will piece (013). Once I focused my attention on this fact, I soon realized that the values 009 and 013 never occur simultaneously. Every other possible combination comes up frequently, but those two are never together. I considered that it might be an issue with FCEUX, and so I tried Neshawk as well. But 009 and 013 never occurred together in Neshawk either. But it has to be an emulation issue, because the top three times (done on hardware) for this game on speedrun.com all got the will piece spawns at 009 and 013. The solution in my TAS will have to be to spawn the will piece at 007 (lower right cave) instead of 009.
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adelikat wrote:
(I'd be curious what you think here, Arc).
[4032] NES Super Mario Bros. 3 "game end glitch" by Masterjun & ais523 in 00:00.78 is the most extreme example of low entertainment and high tech. The technical rating allows the rater to express that although this movie is not enjoyable to watch, the rater respects the diligence of the author to produce a movie that demonstrates expert-level knowledge of the game.
Although I think that the technical rating has value, I think that it is more important for the site to get more people to interact with the rating mechanism. Thus, it should be (1) as easy as possible to use (single-click star rating, as suggested) and (2) as prominent as possible (similar to what I suggested three years ago with this crude graphic).
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I tested the idea of not using the ladder in a post four years ago, but I didn't end up saving the 16 frames like I expected.
It looks like the difference between movies is that I let Blue catch up enough to die on the mine, whereas in this submission Blue catches up a little but Red still dies on the mine. When Blue died on the mine for me, the screen stopped scrolling, which cost 27 frames. But it looks like the screen never stops scrolling in this submission. I gave up on the idea too quickly. Good work; this game should be pretty close to fully optimized with this submission.
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Memory wrote:
Golden Axe Warrior is basically a Zelda 1 clone so that argument works against it as well.
Golden Axe Warrior is a 'Zelda clone,' but a Zelda clone isn't equivalent to a Sonic clone. The Sonic games and Coca-Cola Kid are practically all a single continuous game, just with new levels for each game. Whereas if a game is a 'Zelda clone,' it means that it's part of the action-adventure genre, like Crystalis, Alundra, Spiritual Warfare, etc. in addition to Golden Axe Warrior. Although they share they idea of walking around with a sword, they all have different routes, items, skills, enemies, and glitches that make each action-adventure game a unique experience. Thus, Golden Axe Warrior promotes diversity of ideas within the action-adventure genre, whereas Sonic/Coca-Cola Kid repeats the same platforming ideas.
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Lobsterzelda wrote:
Wait a minute... you've seen all 2138 published TASes on the website? 0_o
That's pretty impressive. With regards to extremely long RPG TASes, do you basically dedicate a 5 hour timeblock to watch them, or do you watch it in pieces over time?
Also, in your subjective opinion, which TAS stands out as having the least entertainment value of any TAS on the website?
I'd be curious if some other old veteran of the site who joined in 2004 has also seen every currently published TAS on the site, though I suppose there's no way I can get a definitive answer to that question...
Thank you. In 2017, I set a goal to watch all of the movies that I hadn't seen yet. On the day that I started, I had seen 553 out of 1841. Over the next 425 days, I rated 1463 movies (3.44 movies per day) to reach 100%. I've maintained 100% since then. I enjoyed the RPGs, but I didn't watch them straight through. I watched in 20-30 minute blocks, 3-4 times per day.
[3673] PSX Discworld II: Mortality Bytes! by Flip in 39:11.17 got a 0.0 entertainment rating from me. It's mostly lag and load screens.
Check the movie rating list page. You can see the top-50 raters and all of your rating details. Current top 5:
1: Arc (100%)
2: adelikat (64%)
3: Mothrayas (63%)
4: coconou (44%)
5: Memory (43%)
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EZGames69 wrote:
Your credibility was lost after you insulted starman
I was arguing that the Starman should have more independent authority, which was a defense of the role.
EZGames69 wrote:
and attempted to suggest your own movies should go into stars.
It doesn't make sense to reject a movie's Star-worthiness based on who nominated it. But I didn't do that anyway. I listed a bunch of movies that have high entertainment ratings. It's an objective fact that some of my movies have high entertainment ratings. I said in the post, "I wouldn't star all of these." It wasn't a Star nomination post.
EZGames69 wrote:
If you want to be taken seriously again, stop being an asshole to everyone.
I write in a simple and direct way, but people often wildly misinterpret what I mean.
EZGames69 wrote:
You were going off about how Coca Cola shouldnt be in stars because it has a low rating, but you’re ok with suggesting this movie
Look at the options that fit the criteria of SMS, not already Starred, and not Sonic. The only possibilities are Golden Axe Warrior or Mickey Mouse.
EZGames69 wrote:
My point is, we shouldn’t treat stars as if it’s a competition which one gets stars.
This doesn't make sense. If there is a very limited number of Stars (true—only 112 out of 2138 movies have a Star), then there is intense competition between movies to get Starred. And there are about 300 movies that are good enough to get legitimate consideration for a Star. The main point that I've been raising is that I believe that only the very best 100-110 of those 300 should be Starred.
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EZGames69 wrote:
You’re forgetting the fact that a tournament would mean getting to choose one winner, not winners. TASing shouldnt even be a competition.
I didn't suggest holding a TAS tournament. I compared the hypothetical Star Council's selection process of 100 Stars to the process that goes into the NCAA's selection process of the 68 tournament teams.
EZGames69 wrote:
“hey, this movie is pretty good it should be in stars”.
Stars are prestigious, not just "pretty good." There are 2138 published movies currently. Most people have seen only a small fraction of them. They want certain movies they've seen to be Stars, but they overlook all the movies that they haven't seen. I'd think that being the only person who has seen every movie would give me some credibility. The selection of Stars needs to take a holistic approach. There are many, many older movies worthy of at least being nominated.
feos wrote:
I'd prefer an SMS game, also I'd prefer not Sonic.
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EZGames69 wrote:
So what happens if one of them disagrees with a nomination for stars? (etc)
Don't pretend that this idea is completely alien. It's the exact same process that the NCAA selection committee goes through every March. They have to put 68 teams in the tournament. Some choices are obvious. Some choices about teams on 'the bubble' stir a lot of debate and emotion. But in the end they settle on 68 teams. Likewise, after discussion, analytics, and feedback, the Star Council would eventually settle on the initial 100 Stars. After the Star Council completes this task, it's no longer needed.
EZGames69 wrote:
that would mean waiting a year just for one star to be decided, which is way too long to wait. 3, would it be starred movies for that specific year or in general? If it’s in general then why would you need to wait a year to do it?
I didn't propose adding only one new Star per year. You shouldn't have presumed that. The Pro Football Hall of Fame typically inducts 5 (non-senior) candidates each year, and that seems like a good number. Have an initial nomination poll that advances the top 5 candidates for the year. And then imagine 'Poll 1 - Should Movie A be promoted to Stars?'; 'Poll 2 - Should Movie B be promoted to Stars?'; etc. up to Poll 5 on the Awards board each year. Typically it would be movies that were made that year that get nominated, but there is nothing stopping older movies from nomination. Especially in the first year after the initial 100 are created, because people will inevitably feel that a few movies got snubbed.
feos wrote:
Coca-Cola Kid is an affirmative-action Star. It was included for "console diversity." But since it's a weak version of Sonic (which has 8 Starred games), it hinders real diversity, i.e., diversity of creative ideas. In my very humble opinion, it shouldn't be a Star if all it has to offer is that it looks similar to handheld Sonic games.
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theripper999 wrote:
Also Arc I think you exaggerate. One example of a run that you don't think deserves a star does not mean a total re-evaluation is necessary. If 5-10% of stars were bad then it would be different story.
That's the way it is though. I would say that 10-15% of the current Stars are unworthy of the tier. Coca-Cola Kid is one of the worst Stars. It's a fine movie but there's no way that it has the special qualities that distinguish a Star from the other 95% of movies on the site.
feos wrote:
7. Read.
I read it; in fact that "judgment" is the reason I posted. It was ridiculous. We're talking about Super Metroid—arguably the single most iconic game in the world of speedrunning. The new movie was a 'notable improvement' over the previous movie. The previous movie was Starred and had a 9.3 rating. The new movie was also compared to the so-called 'problematic' any% movie, which is Starred and recommended for newcomers with a 9.2 rating. There was, in reality, no doubt about approximately what rating the new movie would get, and it currently stands at 9.4. There never was any issue to discuss; the new movie is one of the most Star-worthy movies on the entire site. It has been held hostage in the Moons tier for the last 3 weeks and no one called it out. The current system of establishing Stars is flawed, and so I proposed an alternative way to establish Stars.
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The credibility of the Stars tier has reached a new low.
Suggested remedy:
1. Remove all current Star designations.
2. Establish a Council of Starmen (minimum 3 members).
3. Have the Council decide an initial 100 movies to promote to Stars.
4. Promote those 100 movies to Stars.
5. Dissolve the Council.
6. All subsequent promotions to Stars are nominated and decided as part of the Awards every January.
009 is definitely preferred.
I had found an input combination that yielded the ideal eight memory values with 007 (and had a lot of the TAS done), but now I'm going back to find a combination that yields 009 instead of 007. The full result I'm looking for is:
Address - Value
0657 - 040
0639 - 029
0631 - 018
065D - 005
0661 - 009
065F - 013
0663 - 016
0645 - 053
Edit: Changed ideal values. Also I have found this ideal combination already.
The credibility of the Stars tier has reached a new low.
Suggested remedy:
1. Remove all current Star designations.
2. Establish a Council of Starmen (minimum 3 members).
3. Have the Council decide an initial 100 movies to promote to Stars.
4. Promote those 100 movies to Stars.
5. Dissolve the Council.
6. All subsequent promotions to Stars are nominated and decided as part of the Awards every January.