TASVideos

Posted: 8/21/2016 3:15 AM

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Arc

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The flute-second idea is definitely dead, but I just came up with something new that kind of hybridizes the two ideas. We keep the same macro levels (Attack 5 after the Maze), because we saw that the new idea doesn't work. But, I noticed that it takes about 76 frames to refill the magic/life at the end of the Sea. I think that we can get to the crystal with full magic/life without losing much time. On the last screen before Gooma, I could get a magic drop from the orange ironknuckle before the locked door. That would set the Big 6 count to 0, but then I could use the plan for Rock that I had before: 3 gerus, 2 red ironknuckles, and the drop from the stalfos. I think that the only time lost would be 5 4 frames lost on the red ironknuckle screen in the Sea and the time it would take to pick up the jar from the orange ironknuckle. The third geru could lose some time as well because of its awkward position, but it was only 24 frames with Attack 4. It could be 0 now. The death cycle in the Sea could also result in frames lost, but no more than 21, if it happens. It could also be 0. I'll have to check the timing there.

Posted: 8/20/2016 5:23 PM

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Arc

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Arc wrote:

Use Game Boy Pokemon to play Pokemon Go.

dwangoAC wrote:

Idea #8 (added 2016-08-19): Something involving Pokemon Go We have absolutely no idea what we would do yet. We know it would be cool to do *something*, though...

I see TASing, hacking, and magic all within the same artistic category. They're all exciting because they do something that people thought couldn't be done. The reactions that I see from people outside of the TAS community to TASBot indicate that they basically see TASBot as a magician. When TASBot pulls off a good trick (e.g., TwitchChat, 2-second SMB3), the reaction is, "Wow, how did they do that? *mindblown*" Whereas the segments that people didn't like as much leave minds unblown because of the lack of illusion. The people in this community are marvelous at TASing and hacking, but the magician part is still hit-or-miss. When we're on display at GDQ to a wider, less technically oriented audience, we need the broader entertainment appeal of the magic act. Don't worry about explaining how technically impressive something is. A magician doesn't reveal how he did a trick immediately after doing it, because that ruins it. I think that's contributing to why some people felt underwhelmed by TASBot at the last GDQ. Once you understand a trick, watching a magician perform it destroys its entertainment value forever. TASBot is more interesting when there's mystery about how it does what it does. Basically, when thinking of ideas for TASBot to do at GDQs, you don't actually have to do mindblowing things; you just have to make the audience believe that you did, like a magician. Anyway, my Pokemon Go idea is to make it seem like you can "connect" Pokemon Go to a Game Boy Pokemon, similar to the TwitchChat trick, so that a Pokemon Go screen is displayed on the (Super) Game Boy. It doesn't matter to me whether you actually accomplish it; just make it seem like you did (with ACE). Make it seem like successfully running Pokemon Go on the (Super) Game Boy is the big accomplishment in order to misdirect from the big surprise at the end: a certain Pokemon appears and disappears super fast (before anyone could pull out their phone and check). But TASBot is so fast that it instantly throws a Pokeball and catches it. And that Pokemon is... MISSINGNO.

Posted: 8/19/2016 3:41 AM

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Arc

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It looks like the new route idea is dead. The worst part is that it's completely possible with perfect planning; it's just a little slower. We start with the 213-frame leveling advantage. -5: No fairy on red ironknuckle screen (but you can kill them without time loss) -24: Boss Gooma (best case scenario, initial attempt was more) -0: Baby gooma (best case, can cause lag with his million maces) -69: Route difference to River Devil (tested, I expected only 10 or so) -0: Geru #1 (best case, untested) -18: Geru #2 (tested) -24: Geru #3 (tested) -8: Rebonack II (untested) -60: Volvagia (untested) -38: Thunderbird (untested) --- -236 The comparison for the route difference uses the current movie, so the difference may actually be greater if I save time in the Sea Palace. The gerus are necessary to get the large 6 drop in the Rock. So after all this work, I think it's settled that the current route was right all along. This video shows what the plan was for the alternate Sea route and why the blue drippy things mattered. Link to video

Posted: 8/15/2016 8:53 PM

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Arc

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Blue Drippy Things The issue here was that the blue drops were acting the same way as red drops—splashing on the ground without becoming a bot. A bot is very useful here for a small jar drop. The answer in this case was not creating a frame delay. The problem was too many enemies had already spawned. Therefore, the solution is to kill a mago in the room. Then a bot will form when the blue drop hits the ground. Frame delays can manipulate mago spawns and drip colors, if needed. It's a normal bot that counts toward the small 6, so it will yield a small jar. (Some of the blue ironknuckles don't count toward the large 6.) Long story short, the new route still looks better in theory. Without this jar drop, I would have started doubting it. When I get to the river devil, it should be more clear whether it's faster or not.

Posted: 8/14/2016 4:13 PM

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Arc

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Inzult wrote:

This is really something. Keep up the good work.

Kung Knut wrote:

I became a member after twelve years of lurking just to let you (Arc) know that there are more people eagerly following and appreciating your updates. Great work (again), and looking forward to the next update.

Thank you. You can follow my spreadsheet of notes, if you really want to. I'm going to have to delay 1 frame when entering Carock's den, because I got an impossible pattern going straight in. He was on the left side of the screen the whole time, and then his 8th appearance (the deathblow) was on the far right. The pattern for the 1-frame delay version looks fine. I was looking at the Sea route, and I'll lose a little more time than I thought. It shouldn't be enough to threaten the route yet, but the potential gains continue to fade. I realized that I need to understand how the blue drippy things work, because it would be best if I could turn that blue drip into a small jar. It's still possible without it, but the time loss would be worse.

Posted: 8/13/2016 3:38 AM

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Arc

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WIP7: http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/32911194607222369 274 frames ahead currently. I stopped at the screen before Carock because here is where the route diverges. I looked over the new plan once more, and it still seems like it will work. To recap: it will save 213 frames immediately because of fewer level menus, but the savings will slowly decay over the rest of the run. I expect the bosses to lose 100-110 frames, and then the questionable part is how much I will lose from (1) the different route in the Sea Palace and (2) killing 3 orange gerus at Attack 4 instead of 5. My estimate is no more than 20-30 frames lost. I did the wizzrobe screen 3 frames faster, but I needed 3 frames to manipulate their positions, so the net result is 0. But it looks cleaner. I did the ironknuckle screen 11 frames faster by killing it as fast as possible and getting into perfect subpixel position for the elevator. I had to delay 1 frame to get a jar drop instead of a p-bag, so the net result is 10 frames. That's the only time saved before Carock in level 4.

Posted: 8/10/2016 2:30 PM

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Arc

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fsvgm777 wrote:

Kurabupengin wrote:
Dimon12321 wrote:
Arc wrote:
Hi. I think that the front page should look something like this:
For smartphones and tablets, maybe?
Or maybe it is how the site looked like back in 2003.
Not at all. (okay, this is from 2004, but this is among the oldest working Wayback Machine captures. In fact, the Wayback Machine doesn't have any captures from 2003.)

The front page needs to use its space optimally to encourage the viewer to interact with the site in some way (search, click links, vote, etc). The current front page is as poorly optimized as a TAS from 2004, because: -There's a tiny search bar hidden in the corner. -The tabs are excessive and labyrinthine. -No social media. -The top third is a complete waste of space. Who isn't scrolling past a random movie made years ago? Who is concerned about month-old news about tiny changes to emulators? -There are no thumbnails for videos, except the poorly positioned one way off to the right for the latest movie. Show what the games look like. People haven't even heard of a lot of them. -The right side is wasted empty space—in contrast to the endless column on the right side of a site like Daily Mail. Remove the random 'featured movie' and put all the starred, popular movies over there.

Posted: 8/10/2016 1:20 AM

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Arc

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Hi. I think that the front page should look something like this:

Posted: 8/7/2016 3:36 AM

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Arc

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The Reflect Trek was more interesting than expected. I found a way to achieve the mythical fairy trap.

Because of the positioning, it didn't save as much time as I'd hoped, but it took many hours just to get this version. The whole 11,000-frame sequence has interconnected RNG, so I tried many combinations over many days. The net result of the whole sequence was a 54-frame improvement. Most of it is from the fairy trap and avoiding the obvious 32-frame loss from the step up and back down to escape a random battle in the published movie. So, 264 frames faster overall currently.

Posted: 7/31/2016 2:06 AM

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Arc

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http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/32621147682080338 210 frames saved overall Island time savers (48 frames): 5 frames - overworld 9 frames - helgooma & paltamu 11 frames - key & helgooma 9 frames - elevator paltamu 8 frames - death cycle difference 2 frames - key 2 4 frames - Rebonack I had trouble finding any radical ways to improve the Rebonack fight. It's a 3-part fight. Phase 1 is getting him off the hoverhorse. I didn't see any alternative to the 'ride the dragon' method of maintaining the downstab until he starts to turn around. Then jackhammer him. Any change in movement ruined the jackhammer. Phase 2 is the race to the bottom right corner. I stayed a pixel lower, but any change to the fighting style failed in the long run. Phase 3 is getting him to move left for the finishing blows. The slight improvement came here. Now there's a lot of walking, so the routing differences will be the interesting part.

Posted: 7/27/2016 11:18 PM

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Arc

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I enjoyed this movie in which hands firmly gripping a shaft lead to balls deep in multiple holes.

Posted: 7/27/2016 9:15 PM

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Arc

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Use Game Boy Pokemon to play Pokemon Go.

Posted: 7/27/2016 3:18 AM

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Arc

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I found a good solution! I saved 2 more frames at the red paltamu (at the elevator)... with no subpixels to spare. Since Link needed to change direction, I stabbed the wall and my rightward speed dropped faster, so I stayed more to the left. And I have the exact amount of XP I wanted! This is what TASing is all about! It's not just problem solving, but not knowing whether there is a solution at all. I went through so many creative possibilities; it's great to see a successful result. If it hadn't worked, I think the 'even more alternately' idea might be the best option, although logistically difficult. I would need the Magic Container and 2 small jars. Skipping the first paltamu would save only 13 more frames for me. I'd have to get the second jar from the bot at the locked door with a swordbeam to have a chance. I'm glad I don't have to deal with it. Overall time saved currently is at 206 frames, with Rebonack as the next major issue. Almost at the halfway point!

Posted: 7/26/2016 5:04 AM

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Arc

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Those 5 frames might make a big difference. Including them, I've gained 32 frames in the Island area. But, I'm currently in a situation like Death Mountain, where I'm stuck on the wrong side of a death cycle. This time I'm 2 frames away from the next death cycle. As it stands now, my 32-frame gain would drop to only 21 frames. But if I cut 2 more frames before the death, then the gain would become 42 frames. One way or another, I have to get the 42 frames saved, although I might lose some of those frames post-death. Putting off XP until later is the 'bad solution.' I could cut the frames by skipping the paltamu and getting a small p-bag later. But that would change the Big 6 p-bag drop enemy. That's bad because getting the bag drop at the locked door doesn't require any slowdown. So 2 bad p-bag pickups post-death might not even be worth it, timewise. Maybe instead I could skip the first helgooma (100 XP, no 6 count) and get 2 small bags. The four spots I could theoretically save 2 more frames are the first helgooma, the blue paltamu, the key, and the red paltamu. But they're already the main reasons I've saved as much time as I have.

Posted: 7/22/2016 12:08 AM

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Arc

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http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/32419467284213329 Starting the Island. 167 frames saved total. New time savers since last post: 10 frames - Midoro second p-bag. Used the long-downstab (dongstab) on the ironknuckle. 17 frames - Helmethead. Pretty similar to the Horsehead fight. Horsehead is taller and takes 11 hits instead of 12. 1 frame - Midoro crystal. You can Up+A 1 frame earlier than in Parapa, for some reason. 5 frames - Island overworld. Real interesting one here. You can manipulate the enemies that appear on the island overworld by delaying Link's exit from the 'fairy required' room. But, at first, it all seems to balance out. Delaying 1 frame in the fairy room means waiting 11 frames on the overworld for the enemies to get out of the way, for 12 frames total. Likewise, delaying 6 frames in the fairy room means waiting 6 frames on the overworld, for 12 frames total again. Every delay between 1-6 frames ends up being 12 frames total. But, when you delay 7 frames, you get fairies on the overworld instead of enemies. And you don't have to wait at all for them. So the net result is 12-7= 5 frames faster. I haven't got Magic Container 6 from the cave yet, because it isn't required for Island. I'm not sure how well known it is that although the number 300 appears when you kill Rebonack (boss of Island), he actually gives 301 XP. So I'm going to go into the fight with 899 XP to show the glitch. There's no unnecessary XP in the run.

Posted: 7/16/2016 4:04 AM

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Arc

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Inzult wrote:

How did you save 3 frames taking the jar? I assume there's some method to be at a higher speed when you take the jar that I simply overlooked rather than being further to the left.

1. At the top, I did a max jump instead of a min jump for greater gravity acceleration. 2. Optimal subpixel position. 3. At the bottom, I did a max jump instead of a min jump to grab the jar earlier. Also—referring back to the red and black elevator chart—on the elevator with the moa, your X-position ended up at 120.128, and so the screen exit shifted a pixel to the right and cost you 1 frame.

Posted: 7/15/2016 2:22 AM
(Edited: 7/16/2016 3:42 AM)

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Arc

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I love the Power Glove; it's so bad.

Saved 81 frames in this room. Similar to the Death Mountain situation, I was initially just a few frames away from the next death cycle (which saves 21 frames). Fortunately, I was able to manipulate the Ironknuckle to swing his sword a few frames earlier and save the 21 frames. (Viz., if I take a deathblow on frame 49178 or earlier, the death screen ends on frame 49346, whereas if I take a deathblow on frame 49181 or later, the death screen ends after an extra 21-frame cycle, on frame 49367.) Time saved 1 frame - Saria subpixels 6 frames - Death Mountain orange daira #1 30 frames - Death Mountain Hammer 6 frames - Death Mountain death cycle difference 2 frames - Water of Life cave 1 frame - Parapa stalfos 2 frames - Horsehead 1 frame - Midoro swamp 3 frames - Midoro magic jar grab 73 frames - Midoro Glove 8 frames - Midoro death cycle difference 1 frame - Midoro moa elevator -- 134 frames saved total

Posted: 7/12/2016 4:12 AM

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Arc

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Kurabupengin wrote:

Arc, I think you should make a Game Resources page for this game, just to organize your discoveries better.

I will keep writing notes in the thread while making the movie and then make a resources page when it's done.

RAT926 wrote:

I have an idea for improving the 1F on the field.　image Using the 16F early flute in front of the palace, you can improve the 1F. Maybe you might be able to improve even in places of monsters bridge.

You are right. It saves 1 frame. Good find.

Inzult wrote:

This is extremely cool. And weird.

I now have proof that getting into position 121.064 on the elevator is impossible, and so I can't save a frame when exiting right. But, exiting left could still be different. The first screen in Midoro is an elevator that exits left, so we'll know soon. Update - Parapa complete http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/32201192675939650 Time saved 1 frame - Saria subpixels 42 frames - 2 Death Mountain death cycles 2 frames - Water of Life cave (1 frame of movement, 1 frame earlier Up+A) 1 frame - Parapa stalfos (maintained max speed) 2 frames - Horsehead (stayed a little lower for earlier whirlwind) -- 48 frames total There are really only 3 things of note that happen in Parapa: the P-bag stalfos, Horsehead, and getting the key. Inzult's techniques for all 3 were excellent. Horsehead has different movements depending on which frame you enter the screen. I didn't get the same pattern as Inzult. (I'd get Inzult's Horsehead pattern only if I waited 5 frames.) I think they all have the same optimal time, though. You just have to adjust Link's aerial moves depending on how Horsehead moves.

Posted: 7/8/2016 3:47 AM

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Arc

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Subpixels, Exits, and Elevators This elevator positioning issue has bothered me for 10 years, and so I finally gave it a full examination. Subpixels are divided into 16 portions of 16 (16*16=256). Link spawns at Zelda at X-position 112.000. One step right at speed 1 would be 112.016. One step left would be 111.240. Link's maximum speed is 24, meaning he advances 24 chunks of 16 subpixels in one frame, or 1.5 pixels. Moving right from 112.000 at top speed (24) takes him to 113.128 on the next frame and 115.000 on the frame after that. Room exits occur when Link crosses a particular pixel line. For example, Link reaches the left exit at Zelda after crossing from 251.000 to 250.240. Link can stand at 251.000 forever, but once he reaches 250.240 or further left, the screen will go to black 2 frames later.

This ~~abacus~~ chart shows Link's final X-position when exiting left from Zelda after various losses of subpixels from suboptimal speed. The main point is that there's a 24-subpixel block that maintains the same exit frame. Examples: -At max speed, Link crosses over the exit line (250.240) going from 251.064 to 249.192. So the position on the first frame after crossing is 248.064, and then the second frame (33951) is always the black screen. -If Link slows down and loses 1 subpixel chunk, then he crosses over the exit line going from 251.080 to 249.208. Link is still well beyond the 250.240 threshold, and so no frame is lost. The black screen still comes up on frame 33951. -Going from 252.112 to 250.240 is still enough to exit on frame 33951. But when Link slows down too much and loses too many subpixels, he will go from 252.128 to 251.000. That is not enough to cross the exit line, and so Link will need another frame to cross from 251.000 to 249.128. Then Link's final position will be 248.000, and the black screen will come up on frame 33952. Testing elevators, however, yielded an unexpected result. I tested every relevant subpixel position. Instead of a 24-subpixel cycle, there's an uneven 8-cycle.

Inzult and I are getting the same frame result on the elevators. Inzult is within the 'valley.' The chart shows that getting to X-position 119.192 would lead to an exit on frame 36662. Whereas getting to X-position 120.176 would lead to an exit 1 frame later on frame 36663, even though it's 15 subpixel chunks closer to the exit! How is that possible? The answer is that the exit shifts a pixel to the right. 119.064 to 119.176: exit cross is 238.000. 119.192 to 120.048 (The Valley): exit cross is 238.000. 120.064 to 120.176: exit cross is 239.000. 120.192 to 121.048: exit cross is 238.000. Without the exit cross oddity, I'm fairly sure that it's like a normal 24-subpixel block. Inzult is on the earlier part of it, and I'm at the end of it, but the result is the same because we both cross the 238.000 exit line on the same frame. I've confirmed that starting just one more subpixel step over (from position 121.064) would be enough to reach 238.000 1 frame earlier. But right now it's theoretical. 121.048 is the best position I've been able to get on the elevator so far, but I'll keep trying.

Posted: 7/6/2016 4:00 AM

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Arc

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Update http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/32067802847838519 Time saved 1 frame - Saria subpixels 42 frames - 2 Death Mountain death cycles 2 frames - Water of Life cave (1 frame of movement, 1 frame earlier Up+A) -- 45 frames total The walking around part is done. No time saved in Mido. In Parapa I'll spend most of my time testing the elevator subpixels since it wasn't necessary in Death Mountain. And then maybe save time on Horsehead.

Posted: 7/3/2016 1:06 AM

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Arc

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I looked into the spawn idea, but I don't think it will work. A perfectly timed damage boost in level 5 could theoretically save maybe 150 frames. But we don't know how changing the timing would alter the platform and the boss pattern. Even assuming that they aren't problematic, I think that the only way to change the raw number of spawns is to lose too much time. I don't think that killing one makes a new one spawn any faster. I had to pay attention to the timing of the birds in the house, and they always were on a 336-frame timer regardless of what I did with them. I think that enemies keep spawning on a fixed timer while you're in a particular zone of a level. When I tried spawning more knights in level 1, it was taking too long. All of this manipulation assumes a better spawn in level 5, but there's a good chance the spawn wouldn't improve anyway. If I kill the skeleton instead of pick up the money bag, I get the exact same timing. However, killing the skeleton is the aesthetically better choice. It looks like I'm killing the skeleton for fun since I have time to wait, and I also spend a little less time standing in the corner by myself doing nothing. And people who watch the video without reading the comments would wonder why I walked left to pick up a seemingly meaningless money bag. Therefore, I would like to replace the submission file again, even though the timing is unchanged: http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/31998447334116332

Posted: 7/2/2016 5:32 PM

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Arc

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Thank you Samsara for updating the file. I uploaded the YouTube with the new version (https://youtu.be/4CPvbZNl1TQ?t=5m37s). I gave 'thanks' credits to Alyosha, feos, and AngerFist. Although in my mind, Alyosha still did enough to deserve partial authorship. You certainly deserve authorship credit, Koh1fds. In reply to the post about ghost/burrito spawns: I tried changing a few easy kills in earlier levels, and it had no effect on the rest of the movie. I remember spending a while trying to find a way to manipulate the burrito that gets in the way at the end of level 1. I couldn't find any way to change it. And I can't recall any instance where my actions on one level had an impact on another level. And even if it were possible to manipulate the spawns, would it change the timing? I suspect it might change only the spawn position. It's already positioned well now. Koh1fds explained level 2 well. You can only boost up to the next floor in the house. Likewise, I've dreamt about clipping into the Aggro Crag on level 3, but I don't think it's possible.

Posted: 7/2/2016 1:03 AM

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Arc

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Whoever has the power, please update the submission file with this one: http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/31976269209143856 The new time is 08:07.55. It is an improvement of 120 frames compared to the submitted movie, and it is 630 frames faster than the current publication. The new file includes two improvements to level 5 based on Koh1fds's post: 1. Picking up the money bag on the left changed the spawn of the platform and saved a net of 6 frames. 2. Koh1fds noticed in the submitted version that by waiting 36 frames, the satan yielded an optimal movement pattern. By incredible luck, getting to the boss 6 frames faster gave me that ideal pattern, and so I improved the boss fight by 114 frames.

Posted: 7/1/2016 6:59 PM

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Arc

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1. I tried changing the timing at the end of level 4, but it doesn't change the level 5 spawns. 2. If I walk left and pick up the money bag, it changes the platform spawn. It ends up saving 6 frames. 3. The boss fight ends up 21 frames faster because of the 36-frame delay on the ladder. Never would have thought that. The platform change may impact the delay here. So it looks like there are a few more frames to go back and save.

Posted: 7/1/2016 1:45 AM

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Arc

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I had to confirm that it's still faster to damage boost at the unicorn. It is, barely. The boost is 147 frames faster than taking the ladder. Getting the armor takes 126 frames. And so it's 21 frames faster overall. That's good, because it's more entertaining with both boosts in level 6. I confirmed that you can damage boost on the right side of level 6 as well. I guess I didn't find these boosts because I was focused on gaining height instead of moving sideways. I've tried going sideways through the level 2 house barrier; it doesn't work. I just need to get the level 6 boss in sync and the movie is done.

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