Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Former player
Joined: 9/1/2005
Posts: 803
Warp wrote:
I suppose this means (or should mean) that there should always be a very good reason for a run to not to take damage even though taking it would save time, and thus granting this tag is rare?
So your opinion would suggest that taking damage should be the preferred option, as opposed to avoiding taking damage because it's a one off and looks "unclean" in comparison to the rest of the run?
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Former player
Joined: 9/1/2005
Posts: 803
Warp wrote:
"Forgoes time-saving damage"
This one I don't really get. Is there any reason for a run to avoid taking damage when taking damage would make the run faster?
Because only taking damage once or twice in an entire run when you breeze through every other section without so much as getting a scratch looks out of place?
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Former player
Joined: 9/1/2005
Posts: 803
Open it in a text editor of some description.
Also, there happens to be an edit function, so you don't need to delete your post if you want to change something in it.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Former player
Joined: 9/1/2005
Posts: 803
Given that I was able to improve the first stage while playing realtime, I'm voting no on this.
In many instances you chose to stop and club enemies, which wastes time, while jumping and clubbing them does not.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Former player
Joined: 9/1/2005
Posts: 803
Cremator wrote:
Then how about using a Flash Bomb to do that one damage, since it lingers and therefore you can shoot it earlier than a single buster shot? (Ie., shoot it immediately after launching the charge shot and start recharging.)
That relies on duo not moving (much) to do, however, it's a damn good idea.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Former player
Joined: 9/1/2005
Posts: 803
Was this made in .9.4 or .9.5? regardless of which, it syncs in .9.5 so I'd recommend using that to continue.
Anyway, comment time: the intro looks better, nowhere near as painful to watch as before.
Why did you not choose the "pass the test" mission first? you had to backtrack through the secon darea twice, so it seems a bit wasteful. You could use the first transserver to take the mission, and then the red transserver at the end to take the second.
Other than that, looks nice, keep it up.
That's NOT death abuse. He's already got Astro Crush, meaning he's already killed Frost Man. Whenever you revisit a boss, they're not there.
If you had read the associated post in which that link originated, it suggested that it should be possible to do with the megaball alone, thus not needing astro crush (and it is).
Going back to that stage with astro crush for that purpose alone seems nothing but wasteful.
2. How are you supposed to stop him doing his crazy destroyer? As far as I'm concerned, when he has 5hp left, he will hang on the wall and destroy the ground, no matter what.
You can only kill him before a crazy destroyer with thunder claw, as it's the only thing that deals enough damage to kill him before it goes off.
Cremator wrote:
Also is it truly faster to let Grenade Man do his Crazy Destroyer (and also not to alternate between mid/non-charged and fully charged shots)?
3. The way I killed him (semi charge shooting) is the fastest as its related with Mega Man's time to fully charge and Grenade Man's vulnerability period.
I'll expand on that a little, since I told AngerFist to redo it in the first place. Grenade Man has a 60 frame invulnerability period or thereabouts. A first level charged buster shot does 2 damage against him, a second level, 3 (uncharged, 1). It takes 120 frames to fully charge the buster for 3 damage, meaning 3 damage/120 frames, vs 4 damage/120.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Former player
Joined: 9/1/2005
Posts: 803
The problem I see with append mode is that it doesn't alter the movie length, so added input that saves time will be wasted simply because it doesn't account for any savings of time that might be made by the change, thusly requiring manual editing, hexing, or redoing anyway.
For things that have a fixed length, then I don't think it's much of an issue, but otherwise it seems kinda eh.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Former player
Joined: 9/1/2005
Posts: 803
OK, found out what the cause was.
Turns out that since you had modified your firmware settings, and thus they showed up in the configuration file.
Changing the firmware settings or just having them show in the config file was enough to make the movie sync.
After finally being able to finish watching the movie, I must say it was pretty good, though I do have one question:
Why didn't you get the star coin in 8 Tower 2? It was the only stage in which you could collected them all without wasting any time.
Other than that minor part, nice work.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Former player
Joined: 9/1/2005
Posts: 803
miseiler wrote:
In the NSMB thread TRT mentioned he was using 0.9.2+ to do the run...try that.
I see, that's not 0.9.4 like he listed in the submission though :P
I got to the same point as grunt did when it desynced. you hit the halfway point in 8 tower 2, and then a little bit later you jump on the spikes and then fall to your death.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Former player
Joined: 9/1/2005
Posts: 803
I have tried watching this movie in several different versions desmume, with results varying from "dying in the first stage," "getting a fireflower and then dying in the second" and "not jumping into the cannon, instead hitting the side" which is the most popular result.
I refuse to download the wmv on the basis that it's almost 700MB for a 25 minute movie, which is ridiculous.
Care to elaborate which version of desmume you used? The versions of .9.4 linked on sourceforge do not work (standard, no_sse, dev). gocha's 0.9.4+ doesn't work either.
This makes me wonder, has anyone watched the dsm successfully, or has everyone who commented thusfar only watched the wmv?
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Former player
Joined: 9/1/2005
Posts: 803
jlun2 wrote:
Actually, in the case of DS/GBA games, this isn't an issue. They both run at the same frame rate, the only differences usually present are either a language selection screen, or different publisher logos.
Uh...actually, some games like the Minish Cap have glitches or tricks that only seem to work on one version, not both.
Hence "usually". If a glitch or trick is only available in one version, then all the more reason to use one over the other. Care to mention this glitch or trick in minish cap that only works in one version though?
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Former player
Joined: 9/1/2005
Posts: 803
sgrunt wrote:
Let's count the problems:
2) uses the (E) version of the ROM when there's a (U) version available.
Actually, in the case of DS/GBA games, this isn't an issue. They both run at the same frame rate, the only differences usually present are either a language selection screen, or different publisher logos.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Former player
Joined: 9/1/2005
Posts: 803
computerbird wrote:
OK, finally, i have decided to do a test run at first for this game.
The intro stage is complete now, but i'm not sure if this new style of move will be accept, so i need some suggestions.
That was quite possibly the most annoying method of movement I've ever watched. Part of the reason I never did a test run of this game months ago was because when I tried, I couldn't find the optimal movement solution, since dashing and dash jumping had varying results. I'd probably guess a dash then a dash jump repeating, or the reverse would be the fastest, but I never really checked it. On the basis that dashjumping continiously is the faster, don't just do it at the lowest height every single time.
Now, outside your horrendously annoying movement style, that was pretty damn good. There was a point there where you waited for the snake to move before firing, was that to make it not whack the ground and throw rocks at you?
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Former player
Joined: 9/1/2005
Posts: 803
That's a pretty twisted encode in the fact it blacks out the screen that isn't currently in use, kinda ruined part of the awesomeness of it imo.
Ignoring that point, that was pretty cool. What do you think the chances of getting it under 30 seconds are?
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Former player
Joined: 9/1/2005
Posts: 803
Cremator wrote:
I was also wondering if it was possible (or rather, feasible) to achieve level 8 (or whatever was needed to get items from bosses) from intro and virus blue alone (or that and 1 game over in case of non-assisted segmented running). It would probably make a big difference from the current 100% route I used back in 2006. Probably works out...
Actually, it wasn't until a while after I had posted that, that I remembered that it isn't possible with virus blue alone. You'd need to do virus purple also, which kinda screws it up a little. So it'd take a bit more thought before working out a theoretical better route.
Anyway, thank you for the information. I appreciate it.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Former player
Joined: 9/1/2005
Posts: 803
Cremator wrote:
Speaking of things that would be useful for non-assisted running, that jump at the end of Dizzy part 1 gave me a wonderful idea. Using that jump & Nova Strike & Wind Shredder makes that part a hell of a lot faster than "levitating" across like we do now. No doubt it'll be useful.
You'll need to use 2 wind shredders to get enough height to grab the edge, one only gives you enough height to hit the spikes and die.
I was thinking if this was useful for the TASers, too, but I scrapped that idea due to the various trade-offs you have to make to get the armor & wind shredder, even if the Ultimate Armor is a lot faster than Zero for that stage. Of course, if you can Nova Strike under the spiked platform and grab the other side mid-air without needing to lift oneself (and without dying), it'd be considerably faster than the current method, probably enough so to warrant getting the Ultimate Armor and fight Zero as X (special weapons & charged shots could possibly do damage a bit faster than just charged shots).
Out of sheer curiosity, I actually just tested this. Admittedly, I used the ultimate armor code to start with it as opposed to going through the virus stages, but anyway.
Doing Skivers stage before Dizzy could possibly screw up Izzy's stage, unless it were done with the changed sdc in mind, or manipulation was done in such a way that timestopper wasn't needed. However, the amount of time saved from using X over Zero was no small amount, at roughly 28 seconds (1678 frames).
It would probably take somewhere in the range of 850-950 frames to get the ultimate armor. Zero doesn't actually appear to have a weakness unless it's the wind shredder. He takes 5 damage/hit from a charged buster (no armor).
Basing damage off of this movie, Zero would have around 67HP, and with quick charge, that equates to about 620 frame length fight, unless he had the buster up and it did additional charge shot damage, which would bring it down to around 500 frames (compared to about 85). And then you have the additional length of the Dizzy fight itself.
So all up, it'd end up overall slower to do it, though it probably would look cooler.
I'm sure there are lots of other things that can be used. The Duff McWhalen fight, for instance, could work. Like I said, there's a lot of new stuff in this TAS. A lot of new stuff to try out.
I wouldn't have thought the duff fight would be of much use, it's a pain in the ass to do honestly. the extra damage to the tail part would probably be the only thing that'd actually help I would think.
The main point I'd think would be useful probably doesn't actually affect time in an ingame time run, that being twin dream to avoid copius amounts of hitlag against switches and enemies.
What's the advanced SDC technique used in the last stage? It may not be doable without tools, but I'd like to know so I can try it out. How precise do you need to be?
There were two types used, the first which I found after 3 different attempts, the second which angerfist evolved from the first.
The first is something like this (facing right): slash, down, left, right, slash, down, right, slash, down, left, right, slash (repeat). It varied sometimes based on lag or enemy attacks. It was used for the first 4 of the refights, since it still turned out equal or faster.
The second is much simpler to perform, but would still be useless in realtime: slash, hold right, down, let go of down and wait a frame, slash, down, wait a frame, slash (repeat). This one edges you towards your enemy at a far faster rate than the first, but also causes damage at a faster rate unless you're inside the enemy.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Former player
Joined: 9/1/2005
Posts: 803
Satoryu wrote:
HyperDash+Hisuisho definitely would help.
Actually, no, it wouldn't. That would actually cost you more time trying to pull it off, as it's essentially a single frame window between it being faster than a hyperdash jump, and being slower than a hyperdash jump (you ned a grand total of 2 pixels over a hyperdash jump in the period of frames) .
Hyperdash alone is what I would recommend for a speedrun, combined with twin dream and C-Sword for killing stuff in your way
As would using Denjin on the last part of Zero Space Purple. For the rest, I'm not sure.
This however probably would save you a handful of frames if you didn't screw it up. The main thing to be wary of for this is not being shot at by the ride armor enemy just to your upper right. If you were to use Zero for the final area, I'd probably recommend the black armor for insurance purposes, as nothing would suck more than dying after killing lots of bosses, requiring an entire segment redo.
Then again, I probably wouldn't recommend Zero for the final area in a normal run as pulling off the sdc used in this run is significantly more difficult and dangerous than the old one as you move toward your enemy as you do it, causing you to take damage if you aren't careful. I'd probably suggest X with an ultimate buster or quick charge, and ultimate armor with hyper dash.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Former player
Joined: 9/1/2005
Posts: 803
Bag of Magic Food wrote:
How about "Inverse of Any%"? Like how someone was thinking there should be a run of Mega Man X 3 that collects all the tanks and armors but doesn't trash Zero for his sword. And... kill off both Bit and Byte right away, but leave Vile alive for the fortress, just to make it as different as possible?
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Former player
Joined: 9/1/2005
Posts: 803
Cremator wrote:
Amazing TAS all around. There was lots of stuff I didn't know about and I liked it a lot.
Think much, if any of it. would be useful to the speedrunning community?
But say... did killing Dizzy when you did instead of later net you anything?
It gave us the necessary stage completion to get the Z-Saber+ part Doing the virus stage before this resulted in not enough damage being done to kill the blob before it change locations/form due to its higher level.
Was that time stopper of any actual use before Glow and Skiver, or was it just for the show?
that was just for show, as there was time to kill before doing the next action.
I was thinking if changing order was possible.
I'm guessing something like this?
Intro > no delay cannon fire > virus blue > grizzly > virus purple > virus red > axel > dynamo > duff > kraken > dizzy/izzy > izzy/dizzy > dynamo > mattrex > skiver > final
I have no idea on whether that'd turn out better or worse, but in a realtime run it could possibly prove to be interesting. Perhaps swapping grizzly for axel would made axel's stage and virus purple/red slower, but would also speed up every kill from that point, though probably not at an ideal tradeoff.
X-Stigma wrote:
well, but without X it's not the same thing, hmm... if you guys do another X5 TAS, I suggest a run for Hunter Class Rank MEH for X and Zero, that's really a challenge, you likely have to collect the armor parts for X to go through in time in some stagies or equip parts to go faster, X deserves some credits this time.
I forgot to get back to this earlier. Unfortunately, compared to X6 or X4, where X has his own merits and uses, and not all bosses can be sdc'd, in X5 X is essentially useless.
In order to make X even remotely useful, but still nowhere near as useful as Zero, you'd need to get his rank up, or have zero do a large portion of the stages in order to get parts to have X then beat stages. You'd also need to do the intro level with X to get his Armor, which means a significantly slower intro stage. Unlike X4 (and maybe X6), in X5, X's shots do damage as such:
Uncharged: 1 damage
Level 1 charge: 1 damage
Level 2 charge: 5 damage (4 with no armor, 5 with plasma shot, didn't check gaea/falcon)
Bosses have a 30ish frame invulnerability period to non-weakness weapons. It takes something like 92 frames to charge a level 2 shot. 3 damage/92 frames vs (4)5 damage/92 frames vs 46(69) damage/92 frames for with sdc prior to getting skivers weapon. The closest you'll get to it being more efficient is:
- Extremely well placed giga attacking against walls (which is unlikely)
- Possibly the ultimate buster, depending on how many frames it is between shots
- Grizzly's charged attack shield thingy, which does a decent amount of damage per hit (I think it was 5, might vary) and can hit 4 or 5 times with the 30 frame window against anyone but duff and grizzly himself .
So yeah. X is completely useless in this game.
