Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Former player
Joined: 9/1/2005
Posts: 803
Tub wrote:
looks perfect to me. those fights were excellent!
I tried to optimize them, or at least make them look good, with the exception of the boss fight because boss fights dont agree with that.
I wonder if it's possible to hit the switch without getting the first key.. nothing I tried worked, that stupid switch is completely unimpressed by anything except direct sword hits. Neither tiger scrolls nor items (boomerang) would help. And I couldn't imagine how to pass through the closed door either.
Oh well, I guess you had your share of fun with that switch too.
Yeah, I tried that in my testrun, and couldn't get a working result so i didn't bother this time around. What I was hoping to get done more was actually the first lava float in one whirlwind, but it just wouldn't work out, since I'd fall into the lava just before landing.
Overall the best parts of this dungeon in my opinion are the 'mid-boss' fight, and the thing you wouldn't have expected me to do (which was not only faster, but also saved a menu entry).
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Former player
Joined: 9/1/2005
Posts: 803
I like dungeons.
14225 frames infront right now, goes to element get.
I think there'll be at least one thing that surprises you in this dungeon :)
Tub: your input is appreciated, especially since you're the main person who's giving it :P
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Former player
Joined: 9/1/2005
Posts: 803
Not bad, you can see the improvement over the currently submitted version.
Yes vote from me, I liked especially how you fell down the hole on ronald secret stage 2 after you went through the goal :)
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Former player
Joined: 9/1/2005
Posts: 803
My hate for this game is growing.
Currently 11917 frames faster.
This one goes up to the entrance of melari's mine. Save state included at the end of the first temple.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Former player
Joined: 9/1/2005
Posts: 803
Tub wrote:
I like it :)
Still I'm wondering.. on your way to the castle (and on other occasions) you pressed left or right to slightly alter your rolling direction. Why didn't you use it here?
going right + slightly up wouldn't hurt, right?
when rolling -off- of seeds, onto a non-seeded area, your rolling distance increases, so it made no difference. I was comparing to when i was able to hit the switch, and this was the fastest way.
overall a good job avoiding seeds, I'm just curious about this room
the obvious route is to go up first (over the seed-free-zone), then left. What did I miss?
Same as above, I would've rolled off the seeds, and overshot the area needed to be at. Also, the enemy moved up and into my way if I did that, which would've slowed me down since I'd have to wait to roll through it, or avoid it.
thanks for finding a way to use the faster pot while avoiding the green rupee. That part always bothered me, as it just looked slow to someone who doesn't know about the rupee :)
Actually, I considered getting that rupee to save time later, since you're forced to get a green rupee anyways in the ice dungeon (there are 5 in an underpass you have to go through), so you can't avoid getting one regardless.
timing sword slashes to the enemy's recovery time looks good. I'd still slip in one of those auto-fire-attacks somewhere in the run, just for variety. Maybe even between boss-phases to avoid just standing around.
did you already decide how many heart containers to get, and which?
I think I'm only going to get 3, but after I rewatch my other run again I might drop it down to 2, getting the first dungeon's/third dungeons containers. Depends on how much damage i take that's avoidable, or where I could take a significant amount of damage to speed things up.
The sword thing I might do at some point, depends on how lazy i get when fighting a boss/enemy. I already used a very short rapid swing to manipulate the rolling enemies that I'm forced to fight into a pattern that worked to my advantage.
next wip will include a savestate at the end of this one, when i decide to make some more progress.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Former player
Joined: 9/1/2005
Posts: 803
First dungeon complete.
Currently 4608 (wtf?) frames faster than the test run.
Biggest timesavers up until this particular point:
- Taking the leaf back through the waterway
- Getting onto the first leaf before entering the Minish Village
- Smoother barrel movements
- General path optimizations
- Enemy Optimizations
I think that covers it for this wip.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Former player
Joined: 9/1/2005
Posts: 803
ask and you shall receive.
No savestates included this time round however. I might have the first dungeon done by later today, depending on how things pan out with my boredom, anime watching/downloading, and regular gaming.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Former player
Joined: 9/1/2005
Posts: 803
first wip ready, though it only goes to the beginning of the minish village, given the annoyance of optimizing paths.
currently 605 frames faster than the test run, despite getting the chest at the start (which put me about 4 seconds behind it initially).
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Former player
Joined: 9/1/2005
Posts: 803
Itstoearly wrote:
So, only one person submitted a complete run. I hate everyone.
Congradulations JXQ. Because of lack of interest, it seems, I will put the next level on hold (consider it an extended timeframe)
I place the blame on the fact you chose whip guy over spear dude.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Former player
Joined: 9/1/2005
Posts: 803
since i probably wont be done for quite a while yet, here is an avi of the triple darknut fight for reference (only good for 7 days/25 downloads). I figured your way required a scroll technique, since I couldn't get the method you mentioned to work without one.
edit: link has expired now, so dont bother clicking it anymore.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Former player
Joined: 9/1/2005
Posts: 803
Tompa wrote:
A comment about the TAS you made...
When you charge the sword; Is it reallt faster to swing your sword again when you're making a new charge? Because you don't need to. And I can't see that it's faster.
You release hold of the button required to charge, thus you lose the charge in exchange for the spin attack. You need to swing the sword in order to get a new charge, or you cant hurt the boss.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Former player
Joined: 9/1/2005
Posts: 803
TSA wrote:
I can't wait for this to be done. You should be getting under 2:20...
I'm thinking that's unlikely, given the amount of time that i save will at most be 3 minutes, unless i find another shortcut like the one in the palace of winds.
Now you get what I am saying.
I'm afraid I have no idea what you're saying really. I tried that against the triple darknut lot, but pressing b does nothing, unless i have the roll attack, which does something similar to what you said (roll, attack, it spin attacks but doesn't kill since it hits the shield).
Your fight against the triple darknuts was about a minute and a half, mine was just under 14 seconds using a nice method I found (which works on all darknuts, except the one that's faster to knock off the edge).
Care to show me what you mean in a vbm?
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Former player
Joined: 9/1/2005
Posts: 803
Tub wrote:
Faster splitting I'm sure, as its used in several locations, and would save boss time, at least in a regular run.
you'd still have to split around 90 times to make it worth it. I don't think TSA used it that often.
In a normal run it could potentially save time, as you dont have the luxury of rerecording to avoid being hit and losing your charge.
Just checked now, and it looks like i'll be skipping the pot breaker too
you can also get rid of pots without the sword. namely Gust Jar, Cane, jumping from a ledge onto the pot, or just picking it up. You'll see what's faster, for single pots mostly picking up, or the cane if equipped. For multiple pots the Jar might be an option.
Hmm, cane will prove useful in that respect maybe, but gust jar probably wont, given the small amount of time it's actually equipped for.
on another note, I just compared travel speed of rolling vs. rolling+roll attack. Just rolling is slightly faster. With your darknut strategies, there's no reason to get the roll attack either.
Since I never got the roll attack, that isn't a problem anyways.
I just started on the final now, it looks like it'll be hell with the optimizations, but at least the rolling wont be insanely annoying to optimize, given turbo r does infact give the fastest possible rolling :)
I might have the first wip done today, going to the beginning (or end) of the first dungeon.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Former player
Joined: 9/1/2005
Posts: 803
MattyXB wrote:
Will be so much time get lost? Skip a complete Boss is too some time which will be saved at the other side. Has someone already try it and make a TAS from the PAL Version? Is the PAL Version so much slower that I can't skip a complete Boss?
You would lose 10 frames a second of input, which would result in considerable loss over the span of a period of 30 minutes (10*60*30 = 9000 frames/150 seconds lost).
Unless the change was extremely significant in a pal version (such as Lufia II, although Estopolis II doesn't have the graphical glitches nor bugs present in the US version from what I recall), running a pal game would be unadvisable.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Former player
Joined: 9/1/2005
Posts: 803
Tub wrote:
Atma wrote:
- when cloning link, make sure the "real" link is standing on the correct pad. After the clones disappear, the remaining Link should stand in the spot closest to your next destination.
Got that covered, mostly.
well, not in the royal crypt it seems. Wouldn't it be faster to stand on the northern fields? (for both keys).
In the case of clones, they can pick up items laying about, so it doesn't really matter where I stand (point in case, I get the left key in the royal crypt while standing nowhere near it).
one more question: how far do you have to walk into the swamp to trigger the pegasus boots quest? IIRC it appeared without me drowning first.
Apparantely next to nowhere, i more closely watched TSA's run and he walked in for less than a half second and walked back out, and he got the 'get pegasus boots yo' message.
btw, was TSA talking about the faster splitting technique or the faster charging technique? I know I didn't get the technique you got, but I know I received something that made me charge faster.
Faster splitting I'm sure, as its used in several locations, and would save boss time, at least in a regular run.
my savegame (europe version, I hope that doesn't matter)
standing still, hitting B at frame 0
frame 79: the green clone-bar appears
frame 221 (+142): the green clone-bar is full and flashes white
your savegame after getting the faster splitting:
standing still, hitting B at frame 0
frame 118: the green clone-bar appears
frame 190 (+72): the green clone-bar is full and flashes white
(I might be off a few frames, because I counted at 6% speed, but you get the point)
It took you slightly more than 6000 frames for getting the technique (didn't count the time for getting the kinstone piece).
Yeah, that was one of the things I was going to time later, to see if it'd even be worth the time spent vs the time saved by not getting it.
I like how you squeeze your clones through tight spaces where they're not supposed to fit. :)
Nice shortcut in the wind palace. That was unexpected.
The clones seem to have a variable 'through' duration. Go right into a wall and they'll dissapear for sure, infringe on the wall for only a moment and they wont :)
That was the shortcut I was referring to, saved at least 1 minute on its own, and might be console replicable.
oh, and for the final version: don't forget to entertain the viewer during pauses, and please try to make your movement look smoother.
example? you enter a moving platform. you wait. you adjust yourself a couple of pixels towards the edge. you wait. you adjust yourself another few pixels...
use one motion and it'll look better. Start walking towards the edge at the last possible frame without losing speed, and it'll look perfect (and will increase your rerecord count a lot ;))
Smoother movement is a will do, but I suck at viewer entertainment :\
I'd be happy to review your progress if you post WIPs of your final version.
Shall certainly do, same as the way I'm currently doing it, one dungeon at a time (though I might do it dungeon > crap > dungeon seperately, so the crap is optimized without having to go back and do it all again).
Just checked now, and it looks like i'll be skipping the pot breaker too, since from the looks of it I only broke 34 pots, and it takes ~1200 frames to get (each pot lift/throw is ~42 frames, vs a sword swing of about ~15, so it only saved something in the range of 850 frames, so it doesn't appear to be worth it either). That wont save all that much time though, but if AnotherGamer is right, I should be able to utilize bombs a bit later for something so that'll save 4 pots.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Former player
Joined: 9/1/2005
Posts: 803
Finished. total time of 2:24:49.
The final dungeon I just was hating so I didn't bother test running it to find the ideal path to go. still, turned out ok like that. Vaati went down rather nicely too, so that's a bonus.
Here's summing up what -I- know is majorly improvable:
1) get the 20 rupees from Links house at the beginning = ~30 seconds saved
2) Skip the fairy/bomb upgrade = ~30 seconds saved
3) Skip the dash attack = ~20 seconds saved
3.5) MAYBE skip the rock breaker, I'm not actually sure yet as it proved useful throughout.
4) Open the town warp earlier = ~15? seconds saved
5) Do better barrel movement = ~2-5 seconds saved
6) Wander back in the dungeon using the leaf = ~15 seconds saved
7) push the rock on the way back from maple's place the first time = ~5-10 seconds saved
8) That ice puzzle = ~5? seconds saved
9) Dont hit the mountain/minish village warp points = ~5 seconds saved
That's all that comes to mind, so if anyone cares to point out more, please do :)
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Former player
Joined: 9/1/2005
Posts: 803
edit - 4th element get! - only one (long) dungeon left!
Tub wrote:
first of all: I'm not trying to insult your intelligence, you know most of this already, and on some parts I might be downright wrong. I'm just writing it all down just in case you missed some of it.
Constructive criticism is always welcome :)
- As said, the biggest problems in your test-run are optimisations on a per-room-basis: there are some obvious errors in your current test-run, and it'd take too long (read: I'm too lazy) to point them all out. You'll have to spend more time examining ways, fighting tactics (including enemy manipulation?) etc on your final run. Comparing each room to TSAs run might help on puzzles as well.
One example: you didn't seem to notice that the seed-covered floors in the first temple slowed you down. There were no visible efforts to avoid them.
Enemy manipulation can be done, but its a little difficult with some enemies. Puzzles and such I will compare for the second version, as AnotherGamer pointed out. The seed out decently with rolls, as I didn't overshoot the area I had intended to be at, but I'll see if its faster to walk around or something. After I get the gust jar, its faster to roll over them than to use it to clear a path (I checked at least that much :P).
small check-list for going through each room:
- early bomb throwing, early sword charging
Yep, got that covered, the bomb throwing i didn't think of totally until part way up the mountain.
- when cloning link, make sure the "real" link is standing on the correct pad. After the clones disappear, the remaining Link should stand in the spot closest to your next destination.
Got that covered, mostly.
- dash boots. You didn't use them as often as I expected. Then again, I might overestimate their speed.
Yeah, they're often a bit slower due to the menu changing and such required, since menu navigation would take about 45-60 frames tops, charge time is ~30 frames, and the speed isn't too much faster than rolling. Most of their use I get is when it's required, and when spanning multiple screens in the same area as the effect doesn't require recharging when passing through the same area.
- rolling vs. walking. Sometimes you rolled too far instead of walking the shorter distance. make sure to compare the routes every time.
With the rolling vs walking, at least some of those i compared, and rolling was usually a few frames faster even though half of the animation might've been me rolling at a wall.
general route changes. It's up to you to check if they're faster, at least they seem faster to me.
- first temple, your ride on the lower level: after getting the key, you're going back up to drop from the barrel again. Isn't it faster to just ride back on the leaf?
- maybe skip the bomb upgrade, as mentioned.
- open the wind crest in town earlier, saves you one walk from lake to town
- after visiting the witch for the first time, on your way back to town: open the path south of Lon Lon Ranch, so you can get there faster when going for the third book
- after fusing the first two elements: does the game require you to do the first tutorial-chargeup, or can you go right to the exit?
- Yes, it is infact faster. I dont know why I didn't bother testing, but I compared, and it's about 15 seconds faster at least than the way I did it.
- Probably will, i should be able to manipulate some (pot? enemy? i dunno) drops to my advantage for bombs and hearts.
- Will certainly do, the reason I didn't earlier was because I totally forgot there was one in the town >_>
- Yep, going to do that too.
- Unfortunately so, ezlo just keeps bugging you to do it if you try to walk down.
I only watched until the beginning of the ice dungeon (forgot it's name) when VGB crashed. Will watch more later.
I should have a new wip up within a few hours tops of this post, and will edit as such to include it. I found a nice little shortcut, which if he's able to replicate it, should save TSA almost a minute and a half :)
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Former player
Joined: 9/1/2005
Posts: 803
www.geocities.com/atmaweapon_x/ind-lozu.zip
goes to powering up the sword with the third element now (running time of about 97 minutes). a somewhat reasonably convenient savestate after the wind fortress is included.
TSA wrote:
You need to get the Roll-Dash attack and the Faster Charge - Roll-Dash allows you to pwn Darknuts, Faster Charge to pwn bosses that require the charge + faster puzzle solving involving it.
Just those two things shave about 10 minutes off my current run.
Just those cut off that much time? I'll pass on the roll slash (unless you're talking about what i did in my movie anyways and just roll through + dash attack one of them from behind). faster charge i was going to get anyways, as an experiment, so that should work out nicely (just had to find out which kinstone he needed, after that it was easy to locate a conveniently placed piece).
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Former player
Joined: 9/1/2005
Posts: 803
Tub wrote:
Atma wrote:
Xaphan: nope, the second visit was to refill my health, the blatant mistake costs a lot more time than that :P
going back into your house for 20 rupees?
Yep, that was it. cost me more than 30 seconds, when i could do it right at the very beginning.
I'm not sure if the fairy should be visited at all. bombs and hearts can be obtained by killing weak enemys.
I got it mainly for the refill, but i'll see how many bombs i need throughout and gauge whether or not it'll be required (probably not).
No idea how much time you spent on the regular enemy battles, but they seemed improvable. There were also flaws in your per-screen-route planning. If you wish me to point them out I'll do, if you postponed the detail-optimization to the final run I'll spare me the time to type it. ;)
Please do, with pretty much the exception of dungeons (and even then, somewhat sparingly), I didn't really test to find an optimal path through screens. - It'd probably help to wait a few days, since by, say, friday maybe, I should have the test run finished, and more open to criticism.
I dont think I need anymore rupee's in the run, but if I do, that'll waste some time for sure (to which extent I'll fix it in the final version).
Say TSA, should you happen to read this, were there any major things you were going to do to differently to shave the time on your SDA run down to sub 2.30? while i haven't watched past where i've done, it didn't seem to have many flaws in it.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Former player
Joined: 9/1/2005
Posts: 803
Ok, now that link contains the current progress (aswell as a savestate, so you dont have to watch it all again), and stops just after exiting the Fortress of Winds.
Xaphan: nope, the second visit was to refill my health, the blatant mistake costs a lot more time than that :P
going right + slightly up wouldn't hurt, right?
the obvious route is to go up first (over the seed-free-zone), then left. What did I miss?
thanks for finding a way to use the faster pot while avoiding the green rupee. That part always bothered me, as it just looked slow to someone who doesn't know about the rupee :)
