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Posted: 3/30/2009 6:58 PM
(Edited: 3/30/2009 8:01 PM)

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Azorae

Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Player (98)

Joined: 9/27/2007
Posts: 103
Location: Florida

Slowking wrote:

I don't even think that we need to substitute this much chus with bombs. For example in the Dekupalace we will just use bomb, that only costs us a few frames and through the megaflip in the FFWW we also save one chu.

Normally at that point, we'd have 3 chus (1 used to get into North bay, 1 to enter the fountain, 13 to FFWW (as is required even with the megaflip), 1 to get onto the fence, and 1 to clear the first gap in Woodfall. Since the Woodfall Boss Key Skip takes 7 superflip hovers, we need to use 4 less chus, including, as you said, the hover onto the fence in the Palace. The other 3 would come from entering the fountain with a bomb and using a bomb hover staircase plus one normal bomb hover in the fountain to possibly bring it down to 11 chus. If that doesn't work, we need to bomb hover staircase into North Bay or skip a superslide. Then we'd reach the temple with 8 chus - 1 for the first gap and 7 for the boss key skip.

Slowking wrote:

Btw. we gain two songs of soaring. We have to warp to and out of woodfall2.

The warp out to Clock Town from Woodfall 2 would happen anyways after Great Bay Temple. Look at the Song of Soaring route I posted above.

Posted: 3/30/2009 6:34 PM
(Edited: 3/30/2009 6:59 PM)

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Azorae

Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Player (98)

Joined: 9/27/2007
Posts: 103
Location: Florida

I'm beginning to think Woodfall in 1 part is faster. We lose: -38 seconds from the cutscene -4 bomb timers over bombchus (probably entering the fairy fountain, hovering onto the small fence in the Deku Palace, and perhaps starting the first FFWW with a bomb hover staircase and then using a single bomb hover? Is this possible? These would all incur the least time loss) -An extra bomb timer doing the Woodfall Boss Key Skip -The time to go from the Bow chest to the Boss Key skip platform -The ESS in the Lost wood -The time taken to collect 10 more bombs (probably when we're collecting the 10 before the ranch) But we gain: -1 Song of Soaring (Woodfall -> CT -> North Bay -> CT -> Ikana vs Woodfall -> CT -> North Bay -> Woodfall -> CT -> Ikana) -The time to go from the owl to the Boss Key Skip Platform -7 less bomb timers from having 7 extra chus to use over bomb hovers/bomb recoil flips -Not needing to get the bomb drop before STT It's alot closer when you use just one less Song of Soaring. It still seems a bit faster, though

Posted: 3/30/2009 1:21 AM

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Azorae

Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Player (98)

Joined: 9/27/2007
Posts: 103
Location: Florida

Slowking wrote:

+ 2 Zora games less and 1x less walking there - 19 seconds total + woodfall skip ~25 seconds + one less bank transfare ~10 seconds - Bomb drops ~8 seconds - rupee drops (woods and field) ~6 seconds - Twinmold battle without fire arrows ~4 seconds - Shooting a bird or blue skull for 50r (depending on if it is day or night) ~4.5 seconds

Times added, it seems pretty clear that GBT->WFT->STT->SHT with bomb drops is fastest. Any other order would add an extra bomb run or have a longer WFT cutscene (which is why we're not doing it first, right?) Also, the guay is outside STT no matter what time it is (in the video I posted earlier, it was 3:00 AM, Night of the Second Day, which is around when we'll be there.) Plus, a bit off topic, but it has the "WTF factor" of not having anything to with the Mountain Village/Snowhead area at all for the entire run, then suddenly appearing there and completely breaking it without the mask that is normally heavily required.

Slowking wrote:

Well I tried to get a red rupee from those bushes for quite some time with no luck. Are you sure that they are dropped at night? Well even if they aren't, it's probably still faster to just get 4 blue rupees from here than 20 from a chest or those out of the way bomb drops in STT.

I've only seen it once, but yes, it was at night. I know that anecdotal evidence is usually disregarded here though so I'll try for a picture or video. But yes, 4 blue rupees would be easier to manipulate and only take an extra 2 or 3 seconds

Posted: 3/29/2009 9:35 PM
(Edited: 3/30/2009 4:40 AM)

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Azorae

Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Player (98)

Joined: 9/27/2007
Posts: 103
Location: Florida

This is what I've got so far... - First Cycle Collect 200 Rupees and Bank them, get Adult Wallet (200R) - Second Cycle SoDT when you are 9 and a half in-game hours away from the Ranch houses (Somewhere between the start of the cycle and equipping the Zora Mask) Hit CT Owl, Withdraw 200R, Buy Bomb Bag + 20 Chus (70R) (20B) (20C) ISG Slide to Great Bay area, take out bomb while ESSing to the gate and hover over (18B) (19C) Slide, ESS to water, Hit owl, get Zora Mask (17B) Slide to South Bay, Flying Zora to Fountain (16B) Bombchu into Fountain, wrong warp to Ikana, Slide to and Hit owl, get Bomb drop by tree (18B) (5C) Swim to Swamp, Go to Lost Woods, get 10 Rupees, ESS through Woods, get Bottle (17B) (80R) Zora Slide to BigOcto, Kill BigOcto as Zora, sidestep through water to palace (16B) Get Sonata using new strat + 3 hovers instead of Zora Jump (if possible), Get SoS, Get 4 Deku Sticks, Enter Temple (14B) (1 or 4C) Get Bow and deathwarp out, Warp to CT, buy 20 chus (11B) (20C) (0R) Exit via WCT, slide to grass near cliff, get 2 bomb drops and 20 rupees*, slide into Milk Road (19B) (20R) ISG slide to rock, pull out bomb while ESSing, hover in corner next to rock to Ranch, Slide to Houses, Get Bottle (16B) (17C) Warp to Great Bay, get hookshot, get 2 Eggs (hookshot room and first recoil flip) (13B) (16C) Warp to North Bay, Deposit Eggs, Go back for last 2 eggs (OoB and second recoil Flip) (7B 14C) Warp to North Bay, Do Pinnacle Rock, get NWBN Go to GBT, Do pots twice on the way, get bomb drop from pot near turtle (12B) (200R) Finish GBT, get bomb drop from pot, warp to Woodfall, get Deku Stick from pot (11B) (9C) Finish Woodfall using old skip with 7 Superflip Hovers and 2 chu hovers (3B) (0C) Warp to CT, buy 10 bombs and 20 Chus (13B) (20C) (80R) Warp to Ikana, get bomb drop from bush, slide to and complete Stone Tower Temple (kill Twinmold with 20 normal arrows) (0B) (0C) Light arrow bat for 50R (130R) Warp to CT, buy 20 bombs and 20 chus (0R) (20B) (20C) Warp to Woodfall, get Deku Stick from Pot, WW to and Complete Snowhead (6B) (1C) Hover Into Clock Tower (2B) (0C) Moon (1B) Updated with more accurate bomb counts. xxB = Number of Bombs posessed xxC = Number of Chus posessed xxR = Number of Rupees posessed *I found out that the bushes on the cliff can (rarely) produce red rupees. If one is manipulated fast enough, that plus the 10 extra rupees from the Lost Woods can buy 10 bombs and skip getting the 2 slow bomb drops in STT. If not, there are probably other red rupees that take less than 4 seconds, for instance, the chest inside one of the egg tanks in Pirate's Fortress. The 20 rupees can be obtained at any point after buying the bomb bag and first chus. Also, Clock Tower Early with 4 explosives for MrGrunz

Posted: 3/29/2009 8:24 PM
(Edited: 3/29/2009 8:53 PM)

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Azorae

Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Player (98)

Joined: 9/27/2007
Posts: 103
Location: Florida

Here's a video of how we'd get the 50 Rupees after STT if we do STT first: YouTube This was done after the first completion of STT on a new file. It takes about 2.5 seconds extra, with about 2 extra seconds to equip the light arrow. This means Twinmold would have to be at least 15 seconds faster with fire arrows for SHT to be faster first, which doesn't seem to be the case. Like you said, Twinmold should take, maximum, an extra 4.5 seconds, so we need to find 40+ rupees that only take 9 seconds after we buy chus for SHT. If we can't, STT first is faster. EDIT: What is the exact number we need for Snowhead Temple, not including the FFWW and Lullaby Skip? (Those 2 seem to be 5 bombs 15 chus total)

Posted: 3/29/2009 6:08 PM

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Azorae

Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Player (98)

Joined: 9/27/2007
Posts: 103
Location: Florida

MrGrunz wrote:

you have to wait for a guay, shoot it, walk over to the big rupee and if you think about it, another pots game would be as fast ;)

You should spawn after completing STT right next to a guay that you can immediately turn to and shoot into the tree right next to you. The whole ordeal takes about 3 seconds. Also, another pots game would not work, for the reasons I stated. The 40 rupees need to come between the 2 purchases before Snowhead and STT, and we can do this very quickly and easily with the bat outside STT. There is, however, no quick way to get 40+ rupees after Snowhead. Any other time would require you to deposit 20 or more, then withdraw the same ammount, costing 20 seconds. If Twinmold indeed only loses 4 seconds if killed with normal arrows, then I am almost certain STT->Snowhead is faster.

Posted: 3/29/2009 5:52 PM
(Edited: 3/29/2009 6:04 PM)

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Azorae

Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Player (98)

Joined: 9/27/2007
Posts: 103
Location: Florida

Snowhead temple will, at best, leave us 8 bombs and 0 bombchus. Then we'd have to buy 10 more bombs and 20 more chus for STT, and since we we only have 70 Rupees at that point, we need to find 40 more rupees. (we have the bat outside of STT if we do STT first). If that way to get 40 rupees takes less time than the extra time on Twinmold without fire arrows and the extra time shooting the bat outside the temple, then Snowhead first would be faster. Keep in mind, however, that collecting these rupees before buying bombs and chus for Snowhead/Stone Tower would require 2 bank conversations (deposit and withdrawl), because we are restricted to collecting 20 rupees on top of the 180 from the Zora Pots game. We basically need to find 40 rupees between buying bombs and chus for Snowhead and buying bombs and chus for Stone Tower, and do it in less than 10 seconds (being generous - I still believe that Twinmold with normal arrows would be just as fast.) EDIT: Comment regarding your optimized old Woodfall Key Skip video: Since we're buying 20 chus right after we complete the Woodfall temple, it would be better to enter the door with 2 chu hovers and a normal backflip instead of the superflip (that's why, in my route, I used 8 bombs and 9 chus for this skip) It also seems to be faster by at least 15 seconds, not counting the rather long room before Gekko's. This is at the cost of 5 chu hovers earlier, basically nullifying the time saved during the actual skip, but we save the time getting into the room (which, from Mukki's run, appears to be about 25 seconds)

Posted: 3/28/2009 8:17 PM

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Azorae

Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Player (98)

Joined: 9/27/2007
Posts: 103
Location: Florida

I just tested Twinmold, and they both seem to die to 10 normal arrows. If the Blue one indeed has enough more health to make the fight more than 10 seconds longer, Snowhead -> STT will be the best option. But for now, Doing Snowhead first would mean an extra 10 bombs required, which means a loss of ~9.5 second from Zora pots and buying bombs, which isn't made worthwhile in STT because of the lack of use of Fire arrows. Also, Light Arrows may make the first Wizrobe battle in Snowhead faster (or may not, if it's fixed turns)

Posted: 3/28/2009 6:11 PM
(Edited: 3/28/2009 8:41 PM)

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Azorae

Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Player (98)

Joined: 9/27/2007
Posts: 103
Location: Florida

Slowking wrote:

But you could probably continue an ISS after flipping over the cliff.

It'd have horrible speed from just a normal backflip, and you'd be flipping (or sidehopping would probably be faster) over it anyways. The time lost is negligible, and it's on the way to the Ranch which we may be early for anyways. Edit: If you watch Mukki's run carefully, after the STT finish cutscene, Link is dropped right next to a tree with a bat almost directly between him and the tree. If you're able to pin this bat to the tree with a light arrow (which I've just tested possible on a completed file without the end cutscene) You can get the rupee to land literally 2 sidehops away, another plus for STT->Snowhead Also, you're right about the 10 rupees. The Zora pots game is quite a few seconds out of the way so that will almost certainly make it faster. Good catch. I assume you want to do 2 games back to back right before GBT then?

Posted: 3/28/2009 5:55 PM
(Edited: 3/28/2009 6:07 PM)

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Azorae

Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Player (98)

Joined: 9/27/2007
Posts: 103
Location: Florida

That's what I just though of; Twinmold. Using Normal Arrows instead of Fire Arrows would mean 6 more shots (which shouldn't be too much slower, assuming both 'molds have the same HP), but would allow shooting a bat after the temple as well as completing Snowhead last. Most of the bomb counts were hastily calculated, I just wanted to know a rough route that used the drops over Zora pots/buying them. The interrupted superslide is stopped right next to a cliff, so you'd have to stop it anyways. You're right about the bat, although because of the rupee situation, doing the Zora Pots game a third time would leave us 20R short and require a bank conversation. So, If we can switch to Light arrows, shoot the bat, and grab the rupee within about 18 seconds, we're golden. Edit: In Petrie's vid (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C8AzhiL_3pM, I'm horrible at making hyperlinks) The red Twinmold takes (from the first shot hitting to the last shot killing it with normal arrows) about 8 seconds. The blue one dies to fire arrows in about 10. (If it didn't tunnel, it would take about 6 seconds due to the slow firing time on fire arrows.) Since the Fire Arrows have the equipping animation in the pause screen, it would be very close to the same. Using normal arrows for both would also allow firing at red while blue tunnels, which cost Petrie about 4 seconds.

Posted: 3/28/2009 5:04 PM

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Azorae

Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Player (98)

Joined: 9/27/2007
Posts: 103
Location: Florida

Using a different Temple order (GBT-WF-STT-SH) and bomb strategy, I got this route, which requires 2 less Zora Pot games, 1 less banker conversation, and buying 30 less bombs from the shop. This is due to collecting 6 easy-to-reach bomb drops and shooting a bat with a light arrow after finishing Stone Tower Temple. Otherwise, it is just the route MrGrunz posted. (I think..) It also saves enough bombchus to do the old version of the Woodfall Temple Boss Key Skip, which, while taking 2 extra Superflip hovers and 2 extra regular bombchu hovers, has a much shorter setup. Here it is: - First Cycle Collect 200 Rupees and Bank them, get Adult Wallet (200R) - Second Cycle Withdraw 200R, Buy Bomb Bag + 20 Chus (70R) (20B) (20C) ISG Slide to Great Bay area, Ess+bomb to gate, hover over (18B) (19C) Slide/Ess+bomb/slide to water, Hit owl, get Zora Mask (16B) To South Bay, Zora Pots, SoDT, Flying Zora to Fountain (160R) Bombchu into Fountain, wrong warp to Ikana, Slide to and Hit owl, get Bomb drop by tree (19B) (4C) Swim to Swamp, Slide into Lost Woods, Get Bottle (18B) Zora Slide to BigOcto, Kill BigOcto as Zora, sidestep through water to palace (17B) Get Sonata using MrGrunz's new strat, Get SoS, Get 4 Deku Sticks, Enter Temple (15B) (3C) Get Bow and deathwarp out, Warp to CT, buy 20 chus (13B) (20C) (80R) Exit via WCT, ISG slide to ledge, get 2 bomb drops, slide to Ranch (19B) (20C) Slide towards rock, ESS+pull out bomb, hover in corner next to rock into Ranch (17B) (17C) Get Bottle, SoDT at Dawn for Night of Day 2 Warp to Great Bay, get hookshot, get 2 Eggs (15B) (16C) Warp to North Bay, Deposit Eggs, Go back for last 2 eggs (OoB and Recoil Flip) (10B 13C) Warp to North Bay, Do Pinnacle Rock twice Go to GBT, Do pots again on the way, get bomb drop from pot near turtle (15B) (170R) Finish GBT, get bomb drop from pot, warp to Woodfall, get Deku Stick from Pot (13B) (9C) Finish Woodfall using old skip with Superflip Hovers (5B) (0C) Warp to CT, buy 10 bombs and 20 Chus (15B) (20C) (60R) Warp to Ikana, get bomb drop from bush, Complete Stone Tower (get 2 bomb drops inside) (8B) (0C) Light arrow bat for 50R (110R) Warp to CT, buy 10 bombs and 20 chus (0R) (18B) (20C) Warp to Woodfall, get Deku Stick from Pot, WW to and Complete Snowhead (4B) (1C) Hover Into Clock Tower (1B) (0C) Moon (0B) xxB = Number of Bombs posessed xxC = Number of Chus posessed xxR = Number of Rupees posessed Hopefully I'm not miscalculating anything. The old Woodfall Boss Key Skip with Superflip Hovers should be faster by about 20 seconds (unless I timed incorrectly), which compensates for using 3 extra Bombchus. If the older one is actually slower, the 3 extra chus can be integrated into the GBT Boss Key Skip and OoB Egg in the Fortress The 6 extra bomb drops save playing the Zora Pot Game twice (16 seconds), a conversation with the banker (10 seconds), and buying bombs from the shop 3 times (4.5 seconds) They are: 2 on the way to Ranch (cost no time if you can get to the ranch on time playing SoDT immediately after Zora Pots, if not ~1.5 seconds) 2 inside STT - 8 seconds 1 in pot outside GBT after completing - 2.5 seconds 1 outside bush on the way to ST - 2.5 seconds Total Gain of ~17.5 seconds from the bomb route, plus about 15 seconds from using the old Woodfall Boss Key Skip Unless I'm wrong, then just disregard this whole post. Just trying to contribute to the planning and discussion.

Posted: 1/3/2009 4:06 AM

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Azorae

Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Player (98)

Joined: 9/27/2007
Posts: 103
Location: Florida

Very nice WIP. One possible improvement, however: it is possible to do a beak buster through the grating above the fifth Jinjo, similar to the trick used to get up to the crane with the Shock Spring Pad. This may be faster as it allows instant access to the notes above without swimming out and using the crate.

Posted: 7/12/2008 4:05 PM

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Azorae

Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Player (98)

Joined: 9/27/2007
Posts: 103
Location: Florida

Desynchs before the basement BLJ. Mario runs as if he is about to do the BLJ then sideflips and everything is messed up from there. EDIT: Mr_Robert_Z beat me to it

Posted: 5/25/2008 12:24 AM

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Azorae

Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Player (98)

Joined: 9/27/2007
Posts: 103
Location: Florida

Great run. Yoshi's Island 3 input display was amazing, as were all the other input display tricks. Yes vote.

Posted: 5/19/2008 12:02 AM

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Azorae

Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Player (98)

Joined: 9/27/2007
Posts: 103
Location: Florida

New Trick in Bowser in the Sky. Might save time, might not. http://youtube.com/watch?v=CLMrSWULlWE

Posted: 5/14/2008 9:58 PM

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Azorae

Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Player (98)

Joined: 9/27/2007
Posts: 103
Location: Florida

Bloobiebla, when is a bottle required in your route? I haven't played all dungeons in a long time but I can't remember ever needing one. Meh, it's probably something obvious that I overlooked.

Posted: 5/7/2008 10:33 PM

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Azorae

Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Player (98)

Joined: 9/27/2007
Posts: 103
Location: Florida

If you superslide into Ganon's cutscene and hold R, he doesn't knock the Master Sword away and you can use it.

Posted: 5/3/2008 1:27 AM

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Azorae

Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Player (98)

Joined: 9/27/2007
Posts: 103
Location: Florida

It'd probably be night by the time you get to the grass patch with the peahat, so you can't superslide off of it. I think the best way to do it is to take 2 damage from the peahat in the beginning, then superslide to Kakariko. Then, after cucco collecting, go to the grass patch in front of Hyrule Castle and superslide off of a stalchild to Lake Hylia. There may be a better place to take the second point of damage, but I'm at my friend's house and can't check.

Posted: 1/19/2008 3:25 AM

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Azorae

Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Player (98)

Joined: 9/27/2007
Posts: 103
Location: Florida

I'm not sure if this is old, or even if it'd be faster, but you may be able to get into WF/CCM faster than the lobby glitch by doing something similar to this. If it can be optimized to only need 1-2 BLJ's after hitting the wall and retaining the speed after breaking the door, it may actually be a bit faster.

Posted: 12/31/2007 6:58 PM

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Azorae

Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Player (98)

Joined: 9/27/2007
Posts: 103
Location: Florida

When I try to use Direct64 v0.5.03.25, I get the error message: "Error creating Direc3D device!" It happens whenever I load a ROM, and then Mupen crashes. Is this a problem with my video card? Anyways, I saw it on youtube and it looks great so far, good luck with the rest.

Posted: 12/24/2007 3:44 PM
(Edited: 12/25/2007 12:45 AM)

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Azorae

Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Player (98)

Joined: 9/27/2007
Posts: 103
Location: Florida

I'm going to be throwing together a quick test run of Master Quest over the next two or three days, so I need to know whether there is a way to do the Ganon's Castle Trials skip without the Hover Boots. I know it's possible to bombchu hover there, but that requires either the hover boots or the hookshot. Is it possible to mega flip into a loading point or clip through the walls in a different trial? I've been messing around with the Icicles in the Water Barrier and the torches in the first room with no luck. Also, which is faster to do after getting the Odd Potion? -Kakariko, superslide to Lon Lon, glitch horse, ride to Kokiri, trade for saw, ride to Lake Hylia -Kakariko, superslide to Kokiri, trade for saw, Superslide to Lon Lon, glitch horse, ride to Lake Hylia As of my experience it seems like the first option, but I haven't got a chance to optimize them and see time differences. Thanks in advance.

Posted: 12/23/2007 4:14 PM

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Azorae

Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Player (98)

Joined: 9/27/2007
Posts: 103
Location: Florida

Do those 20 rupee chest pits have Deku Babas in them in this game or is that just MM?

Nope, only in MM. I checked the one in Kakariko yesterday and unless that's a special case, there aren't any babas in the 20 rupee pits.

Posted: 12/16/2007 3:31 PM

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Azorae

Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Player (98)

Joined: 9/27/2007
Posts: 103
Location: Florida

Stomp on the Thwomp 23.76 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T4YL2OAi_fo Too bad that's the 100 coin star partner, but the same general strategy can be used with Timed Jumps on Moving Bars.

Posted: 12/5/2007 10:12 PM
(Edited: 12/8/2007 8:04 PM)

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Azorae

Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Player (98)

Joined: 9/27/2007
Posts: 103
Location: Florida

I have to admit, I was a skeptic. But wow, I never thought it could be improved by THAT MUCH, even with DDD skipped. Instant yes vote here. Good job guys. EDIT: Interesting screenshot choice for the published run.

Posted: 11/30/2007 2:54 PM

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Azorae

Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Player (98)

Joined: 9/27/2007
Posts: 103
Location: Florida

http://files.filefront.com/MQ+Ganons+Towerst/;9158388;/fileinfo.html I named the state wrong, it's supposed to be Ganon's Castle. Doesn't make a difference though.

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