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goofydylan8 wrote:
Warning to all...
Frame war is coming.
Oh come on, can't you let anyone else have a NES record for once? I hope he doesn't realize that there's a 20 minute improvement to The Bugs Bunny Crazy Castle...
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Dream wrote:
I think it would help to have a comparison of button presses between this and the normal run. It seems like the entertainment comes from the technical details of the run. I was sort of entertained, so Meh vote.
The normal run has 931 presses. They have very different strategies, so it'd be hard to compare.
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HappyLee wrote:
Nach wrote:
As for counting key presses per submission, that's not really a big deal.
As a matter of fact, it is kind of a big deal to me, because it would look stupid on the submission page.
Easy solution: the submitter has to check a box to label it as a minimum presses TAS, only showing this data in that case (And showing it in the submission title as well). Or, we could just have the judge verify the submission, but I'd personally rather code the solution (I've been ready and willing to do so since long before this submission).
HappyLee wrote:
Well, it doesn't seem super to me.
When I submit my 142 presses run (shortly), then take a look at 8-2. The section with the improvement in question has zero room for error; if any of the presses start / end one frame earlier / later, there's no way it'll work, no matter how much you adjust the others. This shows that these kinds of runs will often require more input accuracy than tool-assisted speedruns.
HappyLee wrote:
I see lots of people running through Hammer Bros that way. It's a lot easier and safer. I often use it myself, not in TASes.
Go ahead, record yourself going through all 4 of those Hammer Bros. without letting go of those buttons in real time. Spoiler alert: you won't be able to. Still not satisfied? Feel free to record a TAS of you going through them all without stopping and without using RAM Watch / Search. You won't be able to do it, or at least not without brute forcing for hours.
jlun2 wrote:
BrainStormer wrote:
Don't take this offensively but I would really be looking forward to seeing this run from Happylee.
Agreed.
Thirded. I approached HappyLee to try to do such a run last August, but he was sadly unwilling. If he doesn't want to participate in this branch, that's fine, but I would hope he would respect my goal choice, even if the overwhelming community decides it doesn't belong on this site.
Kuwaga wrote:
I'd also be interested in seeing a more detailed submission text, explaining why these are the minimal presses required, including possible alternative routes that have been considered. I know it might be asking for much, but a detailed submission text would greatly enhance the entertainment value I'd personally receive from watching minimal presses runs.
Well, for a more complex game, yeah, this might be necessary, but there's not many different routes to take; only different ways of executing the same route. Also, I'm not trying to assert that this game can't be completed in less than 145 presses (It clearly can, as you'll see in my improvement), but the goal is to reach the minimum presses. Unlike lowest score, this can never be proven.
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andrewg wrote:
I tried to eliminate the walljump in 8-4 by using the turtles, but I came about 1 block too short on the vertical, which was disappointing.
hmmm...
Can you provide me your input file in which you got this close? I've looked at the section and I have no idea how you would have even made it this far.
I currently have a file that completes the game in 142 presses, which is roughly 2 seconds longer than the 145 press version. I'll be without internet until Sunday, and during this time, I'll play around with 8-4, but after that's done, I'll be going back to SMB3. Unless someone finds an improvement to 4-2 using a glitch by Sunday, I'm going to redo the subtitles, encode, and submit this.
Actually, judges, should I just have one of you replace the submission file? Only 4 of the levels change at all, but the improvement in 8-2 is really impressive and might change votes. I'll heed your suggestion.
I invite everyone to try to find an improvement in 4-2 or experiment with this idea of andrewg's for 8-4, though I must say, I really really don't want to have to redo 4-2...all of my enemy manipulation will have been wasted...
Edit: Nach suggested I resubmit it, preferably as soon as possible. I'll try to get it done by tomorrow, but there's no guarantee.
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Bobmario511 wrote:
Been a while since I TASed smb, but I think for glitching into say the top of a pipe you only need 1 a press and > being held constantly, while going through solid walls needs more jumps or it pushes you out (been a while again, not sure).
Would you or anyone else be so kind as to test this? I am not the best with glitching, and I'm currently working on the other improvements. I have a huge incentive not to find a glitch improvement in 4-2, which would in turn require me to do a bunch of additional work, anyway. :P
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Personman wrote:
I'm sure I'm missing something, or maybe it's just impossible. Sorry if you've already tried this a million times/already know it's not doable for an obvious reason, Brandon :)
I haven't messed around with any of these types of glitches, but MUGG tells me that this involves a lot of jumps and would not be worth it. Please correct us if we're wrong.
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andrewg wrote:
I tried to eliminate the walljump in 8-4 by using the turtles, but I came about 1 block too short on the vertical, which was disappointing.
hmmm...
I can look into that. If it's really that close, it might be a matter of brute force...you'd be surprised how little room for error there is for these things, as you'll see in the new 8-2.
Hey andrewg, you seem fairly interested in this stuff; after I'm done with the new Minimum Presses run of Super Mario Bros., would you like to try making a Minimum Holds run? That'd be very much appreciated.
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andrewg wrote:
In 8-4, You can hold "A" going out of the pipe into the water area instead of pressing it again. (Unless that was just an error of DDR input), I think it was just an oversight.
Nope, that's another press...142 presses. I wonder if it might be possible to use a Cheep Cheep to get you onto the pipe after the Pirahna Plant has already retreated. It doesn't look very likely, though.
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OK, so I was able to complete 1-1 in one less press thanks to andrewg, and 8-2 in one less press thanks to...you'll have to wait and see. Assuming the rest syncs and I don't find any further improvements, that brings us to 143 presses.
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I like this. You might find more luck doing it in WarioWare D.I.Y though...I'm sure their tool-set is much more robust considering drawing is a major part of the game.
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Do you think I should just try to hex andrewg's improvement instead of redoing the whole run? That would definitely be quicker, and I figure the resources towards redoing this whole run would be better used towards a warpless run.
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andrewg wrote:
I'm wondering if there are other improvements, but it seems very solid at this point. I'd wager it's possible to find a few minor ones.
EDIT: Also, I really like this idea.
Well, let me know (Perhaps by PM :P) if you find any more improvements, as I'm probably going to do a SMB3 MP TAS before I redo this one. I'm also debating whether or not I should redo this using BizHawk.
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andrewg wrote:
Improvement to 1-1: (one press)
after going down the pipe, continue to hold "down." Then, make two jumps in the under ground while still holding "down" upon exiting the pipe, release "down" once the goombas get close.
...That'll probably work. Wait for me to make my improvement? :(
Edit: I just tried this and it doesn't seem like you can exit through the right pipe while holding right. Have you tested this?
Edit 2: Nope. This works. Congratulations; in theory, this can now be completed in 144 presses. I'll start an improvement shortly.
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Tub wrote:
Another issue is that this type of run requires a specific encode with button presses and subtitles to enjoy, and I'm not sure that's a good requirement to have on a published movie. We admittedly have several runs that require subtitles (or reading the submission text) to understand, but extensive OSDs are new.
Well, I'll grant you that this run would probably be incredibly confusing without the input display, but the subtitles were completely optional. I always include subtitles in my runs.
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Aside from the ridiculously active debate that's going on in IRC about whether this category is legitimate, if I was to make a MP TAS of SMB "warpless" (I already have part of it done), should it obsolete this when the time comes, or should it lend itself to yet another category?
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The biggest issue I had, which I didn't have the opportunity to voice, is that even if Nach could somehow justify that this has nothing to do with Nazism and that "the Third Reich can rot," he was still encouraging TASes that directly involved Hitler. The whole thing was pretty offensive, but much more than that, it was unfunny. I mean, the idea of a TASing master race is kind of interesting, but to associate it with all of the historical connotations that come along with the word Reich is a bad strategy. Übermensch is fine though; let's remember that although his philosophy was heavily involved in Nazi Germany, Nietzsche died way too early to possibly be blamed for it.
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Here's the problem with the branch "Minimum Presses"; currently, the site can't display anything but the time in the title as far as statistics go. Either we modify the system to include this statistic in certain movie / submission's titles or I have to include the press count somewhere in the branch. Perhaps "Minimum Presses, 145" would be better?
Also, I am also a huge DDR / In the Groove fanboy. I can't say this was my idea at all, but I was very excited when I saw it.
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CoolKirby wrote:
Brandon wrote:
CoolKirby wrote:
I want this to be published, but it would need to be published as a concept demo, and we don't have a section for that. Maybe a new "concept demo" tag could be created for it?
Concept demo? I'm not sure I follow. We would just need a "aims for the minimum presses" tag or something, no? I was also suggesting to adelikat that I write the necessary code to track these stats on the submission page, but he strongly vetoed this. Maybe if this gets published, he'll change his mind...
Oh, I get it. This could be done for more games! That's a cool idea. Well, I hope this gets published then.
It already has been done for more games. I just never dared to think these kinds of runs would be published, especially not universally. But, considering that I think this is probably the best run of this type we have to date, it's April Fools', and I'm arguably the leader of the Minimum Buttons project, I figured this submission would be appropriate. I'm very happy to see the positive response, though I wonder how much of it is from trolls.
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CoolKirby wrote:
I want this to be published, but it would need to be published as a concept demo, and we don't have a section for that. Maybe a new "concept demo" tag could be created for it?
Concept demo? I'm not sure I follow. We would just need a "aims for the minimum presses" tag or something, no? I was also suggesting to adelikat that I write the necessary code to track these stats on the submission page, but he strongly vetoed this. Maybe if this gets published, he'll change his mind...
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Acheron86 wrote:
"Avoids wasting time" is a stated goal, and I don't think it's an extra button press anyway (he would need to jump to make it to the flagpole anyway, he just jumps after falling).
