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Hah, who could have though that the escape clock was improvable by almost 30 centiseconds, that sure came out of nowhere for me :)
Anyway the run is finished, new time is 23:45:00 which is 19 seconds and 22 frames faster than the old run. I'm gonna go write a submission text and then it will be up.
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I know, I tried to make the MB fight as good looking as possible, I think it is quite nice now. Also I'm 18 seconds and 45 frames ahead now after MB 3rd phase. Only the escape left now :)
The last two room might take some time though, I hate steam...
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Damn 5 frames slower :)
Well it is so random that it would be almost impossible to do it any faster, you would have to get him to do a similar grab (only that is almost impossible, it is super rare to get one that looks like this) at a totally different position without loosing any time doing so, and even then it is completely random how fast it will be, it could be a few frames faster or a few frames slower.
I predict that a sub 45 frames KO will never happen.
Also I'll probably post the run in a few hours. I'm past baby metroid 18 seconds ahead of my old run :)
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Sigh, I'm finally back in LN. I gained some 5-6 frames though lost ~30 because of necessary delays. I'll try to finish up the rest in the time of 2-3 days.
EDIT: Friggin gawd yes :) I got a damn close to perfect KO grab from ridley after a lot of hard work, there is basically almost no room form improvement. Between his hp reaching 0 and the first small explosion on him getting visible it takes only 59 frames (would be interesting if Saturn could check how long it took in his RBO). The lack of one PB in his drops will slow me down by a small amount of frames later but the second best I got was 7 frames slower and had very few super which would likely slow me down more.
After getting out from LN the rest of the run (except for some metroid rooms and the escape) is a cakewalk.
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Saturn wrote:
And about which run should be published, I think both would deserve it, as they both achive their unique goals, and will be of extremely high quality. Hero's one will be more appreciated here, but yours gets a 0:23 the first time ever in SM's history, which is a special thing as well.
Well yes, though I was just pointing out the fact that my own has absolutely no chance.
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Saturn wrote:
Thats why you should "always" plan your runs ahead before working your ass off to optimize them just to find out that there are some inaccuracies in the ammo/health management.
Well I did plan very very carefully, I spent a lot of time to think about the best possibilities for the kraid-LN part and so on. However misinterpreting a 44 as a 14 or a 14 as a 44 at one point in time (the time table looked something like 14:44:14 and the other one 14:44:44 and I only looked at the times hastily, foolish) made me think that I could save some energy on a shinesperk in LN without loosing time and then my run crashed... hard.
hero of the day wrote:
It sounds like you and I might finish our runs around the same time
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It is impressive that you are already done with LN (at least it sounds like it), last time we spoke you where heading for Kraid and that was like 3-4 days ago...
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Saturn wrote:
I think the extra shinespark will be the one before entering the grey door that leads to the Plasma area, right? Should save around a half second.
Yes that is the one, and the gain IIRC is quite precisely half a second.
Also I have to redo my run from kraid... I was all the way up to the gold pirate shaft in LN and now I have to redo that because of one small miscalculation in health and absolutely no good way to get more health between kraid-LN. I hate this part of the run, last time I had to redo about 4 times for different reasons in the interval of plasma and icebeam.
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Saturn wrote:
* 1 frame gained in the very first room by yet again delaying the dash button to not skip a important arm pump. I never thought it's enough to save a full frame with this tech, so I didn't even bother to try that. Thanks to the lazyness, I guess.
Yes, I guess the reason that it was overlooked by so many is that you can't gain the distance needed to save a frame here by better speedmanagement (A rough guess is that with the best possible you would be maybe 2-3 pixles away) but you can shoot the door earlier with better speedmanagement as the needed distance to gain is obviously smaller.
Saturn wrote:
*
* 1 frame gained in the mainstreet room by using the spinjump instead of the normal one. This allows to shoot the bottom door a bit earlier even without the falling corner boost, since a spinjump has a slightly faster horizontal movement. A pretty obvious tech to use here, that's why I'm a bit pissed to have missed it...
This is an excellent example of how annoying SM is to optimize to the limit, because you so easily loose frames in areas like this. A trick (low boost in this case) might be faster in a hundred other places but here it saves a frame not to. I'm impressed actually that Taco found it, not because it needs extreme optimization but because it is so ridiculously easy to overlook.
Saturn wrote:
Hmmm, I wonder if the "thing" you mentioned is the same that I found when testing Draygon just before cancelling my any% run. :-)
Well I found out that you can actually delay the last shinespark by a good deal of time (I have not checked but I think I do it by 1-2 seconds) and still get the drops at roughly the same time (my guess is that he dies faster if he is closer to the middle of the room) , I use it to spam healthdrops from him which allows me to do an extra shinespark later in the run and in a realtime run it would mean that you are able to skip the drops from him completely, bombjumping up to the door skipping two pause screens and still have enough health for the shinespark in the big room without making huge delays to get refills earlier. Also that means you could concentrate more on getting super missiles for botwoon. (I'm pretty sure that it is faster to skip that pausescreen even with the delays and in any way it will look cleaner) For the upcoming 100% run this "trick" will probably used to get supers.
EDIT:
hero of the day wrote:
Even with my specially designed realtime route, I think the 23 is possible.
I sure hope so :)
I estimate my any% to land somewhere between 23:45 and 23:50 so that would mean (if it is possible) that the realtime route is much much closer to the ingame route timewise than I thought.
Also watch Kriole/Taco go insane in the big diagonal room when searching for perfection :P I'll be really disappointed if you are slower than 290 frames in that room.
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Well that sure made me feel worthless. I guess that is what working intensly for more than half a year on microscopic optimizations do to you.
Anyway, Hi-jump in no way can save the time it takes to get. If you take the E-tank there instead of at kraid you still add 2 door transitions, which is maybe 6-8 seconds, and 1 item pickup which is another 6-8 seconds (I think)
So that is 12-16 seconds added, taken the detour time in to account you only save maybe 5 seconds by taking high jump (if even that) and you save 2-3 seconds by not taking the Kraid E-tank. So at best you would loose ~4 seconds but more realisticaly I would guess you loose up to 10 seconds
So high jump is a no no, unless something grand is about to be revealed...
Hero's route is I think pretty flawless, he takes just the amount of missiles needed for motherbrain without needing to go back for refills the minimum amount of E-tanks (taken at optimal places) and so on. The only thing that comes to mind would be to skip Wavebeam and that missile in exchange for another Super in maridia removing two door transitions a item pickup and some detour time, ridley and MB would be so much slower that I doubt it would be faster at all and more problems like botwoon and draygon makes it even less probable. Also there is likely a million other problems about that change. The only difference I know that can be done to the route is to remove all pause screens which is possible with good ammo management, and even easier with a thing I discovered for draygon :)
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Sure am, I think you would have noticed that if you checked the time in memwatch :)
Also lol, after looking in to it some more I realize that there is actually no platform at all separating the bottom of the room from the top of the room beyond X=277...
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Kriole wrote:
During my testrun I found out that the PB pack on the way to Ridley saves roughly 300 frames, if not even more. So that will be included in my new RBO.
Ha, I knew it.
EDIT: I was fooling around after kraid to figure out where the drops was placed ofscreen when I to my big surprise managed to somehow get to the top level of the room. I guess it is just extreme luck (or whatever you should call it) that allowed me to find a week point in the roof or something.
Say what?
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The fact that I might not have found a strategy without your smv does not make my work a copy of it. I never copied you frame for frame therefore I naturally don't say that I did, yes in some cases I had to watch your smv closely to understand what you did differently and indeed some of the things you found are weird and was probably very hard to find, but really what difference does it make?
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creaothceann made a video of my WIP, it can be found on youtube Here or for higher quality There
I have only been able to watch the video in youtube without sound so far because I'm not at my own computer (this on has issues...) so I don't know how it is yet.
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Fano wrote:
Hope you keep this up
I plan to be finished in roughly 1-2 weeks, then I think I'll try to make a 100% run.
To bad I can't watch the video and compare the length of phantoons death animation to mine.
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Kriole wrote:
The only thing that buggered me was that you used Taco's Ceres, instead of starting your own. Well, you altered it to your liking, but it still bothered me that you were so lazy ;p. I take you started to record after the first room?
I did start a version from the very begining at first just copying the intro delay, though in the second room I noted that I was 3000 something subpixels behind taco which lost me a frame and at that point all good savestates was gone. I got annoyed and bored and I was tired (did the start of ceres very late one night) so I ripped the first two rooms from tacos first 49:17 run because of lazyness or maybe better phrased as lack of motivation since the end result would pretty much end up a copy anyways even if I did not directly rip it or even look at it.
I also would not call my pre torizo work a copy of Saturn's, I did most things by myself though naturally using his strategies which I could not find improvements to.
Naturally my motivation for this run was not at top when I started it as I know already what kind of a reciving it would get here by the general public so I worked on it somewhat lazily in the begining (though not sloppily), basically only doing it because I "had" to do a 00:23 run. After my first substantial improvement (diagonal crateria room) it went up though and now it is very high because I find improvements everywhere which is fun.
I would also very much like to know how you saw that I ripped the beggining of tacos run.
EDIT: Ah, I see.
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42500 - I doubt it, the only way I could think of is to let him get all the way to the middle of the room before I start shooting him, but then I would not be able to kill him.
43800 - I doubt it, I left with the highest speed I could and even with jumping so high that I just barely cleared the door I was not able to do that. And I doubt that it would be worth it to skip some of the refills.
43900 - IIRC it was as fast as the usual method, maybe a frame faster because of a lower point to start the boost from. I used it mainly because it looked nice :)
45100 - I tried several boosts here and this was the best I got.
45666 - Well if you look where the movie ends you will notice that I have 8 Super Missiles, the absolute minimum I could have allowed at that point was 7, so even with all the small sacrifices I make I still just barely can make it. It costs about 10 frames IIRC and I don't think there is any Super I could have gotten faster than that.
45700 - Using this I was able to land on the upper floor on the same frame as if using the old method, but here I can jump to the next ledge instantly instead of running for several frames so I think it saves something like 7-10 frames.
46350 - I doubt I have the sufficient energy to do that without loosing time in the end. As you see my health management was also very precise as I go down all the way to 30 energy before getting the E-tank.
51850 - A couple of frames, also it looks cooler :P
54090 - Yes it is about 30 frames slower, making it my slowest refills I think. Skipping them would in the end probably be faster than to take them even with the future sacrifices I would have to make. I was very careful with refills at this point because I did not know how many Supers I could get in norfair. On the other hand the old method would have left me with below 30 hp somewhere in norfair if not making even further sacrifices so maybe it evens out. Also it looks sweet :)
54650 - I think it is actually pretty much exactly as fast as the other strategy, at most I think 1 frame faster or 1 frame slower. I used it because it looked cleaner.
55300 - Actually now that I think of it I did know about it, I did it in my SM:I TAS (it is possible to kill them both actually getting both drops while still doing the damage boost though it is a little slower) but forgot about it here. This could perhaps have made the slower flower room unnecessary.
55590 - According to my tests a CWJ would at most have been a couple of frames faster, but at the same time it would force me to use a missile which I kind of need for later and skip a super which I definitely need for later. (waiting for the super makes the CWJ strat slower)
61000 - I have to shoot the sphere from mid air (spazer or wave is needed otherwise) and it is faster to do it like this than to land and then make to spin I think.
62000 - That would have been nice, I was not able to get any closer than I did but I always took the damageboost ASAP though.
63800 - Same as with speedbooster.
Oh and the blueball method. I'm not sure how much faster it was but it was faster, counting from the save room I was ~25 frames faster to the elevator and that is with taking a extra super in the main shaft to make up for the lost one in the room before. I think I could have saved some of that time anyway from better optimizing my old run but still I think this strategy is a good 15-20 frames faster if not having to pick up very many supers.
EDIT: I checked and the blueball strategy saved precisely 21 frames from the save station room to picking up high jump. So I think it is 19 or 20 frames faster than the old strategy. (my video for comparison was the old any% and I think it is improvable by a frame or so) Also picking up a 3rd super in the elevator room was actually not slower at all, instead I gained a frame in that room...
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Further progress
591 frames ahead of the old one, overall I sacrifice a lot of time to get ammo but it pays of in the end, some ammo pickups might have been a little slow though. I have some new room strategies and hope that at least something might be of use for hero :)
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hero of the day wrote:
I am still working on the run, but I hit a snag. I just got screwed with the phantoon drops, so I am trying to find a way to collect missile drops without losing much time.
Yeah phantoon is such a run killer, to manipulate him is extremely time consuming. The best way I have found at this point is to delay the entry to WS basement by 1 frame at a time which will make phantoon drop other refills when you are done and if you are lucky allow you to enter his room earlier. The thing is that it takes ~1 hour to test each delay... I could not implement your missile trick because his drops where horrible and I won't try to beat him up to 12 times to get the best drops and gain at most a few frames.
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Ah, nice trick I think that with this trick it must be faster to take that missile tank than to not, it alone should save 20-30 frames and taking it is a 35 frame delay. I'll try and implement it though it all depends on how phantoon turn out, if I'm going to skip those pipebug refills in norfair and crab refills in maridia I'll need good drops from him.
Anyway how am I doing compared to you from green brinstar and forward? And most of all when the hell will you be done, I'm going crazy waiting :D
