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klmz wrote:
Is it possible to destroy the egg sac from the north before Spyder reveals itself?
EDIT: I was just curious. I don't think it would be any time saver.
nope, the sac won't freeze if Spyder is not around
btw it is possible to keep the flowers when planting them.... if only those were the hearts :P
edit: hmm only just found out that this time, other items are disappearing *instead of* the flowers.... can even plant flower, go to inventory screen, select the item you want and it'll be destroyed shortly after leaving the inventory (I couldn't make weapons disappear though :P)
I'm wondering if this will work on the doors in the final minecart-dungeon :) that would be awesome :D (lightning bolt on all bosses? :D)
klmz wrote:
EDIT 2: Is it possible to plant the wrong flowers but get the correct items? :P
the following did happen:
after placing 2 flowers while keeping it and inserting the 3rd heart i can:
place tulip or rose a 2nd time at it's spot... white flower appears visually at correct spot but nothing spawns (and now nothing can be planted)
place white flower at correct spot, snowflake spawns as usual (no matter if i do the keep-flower trick)
entering and leaving rainbowland seems to have no influence whatsoever
never got to plant a 'wrong' flower anywhere
I tried similar stuff with other flowers but so far nothing useful... gotta keep on digging :D
oh btw, if you plant a wooden heart merlin takes an automatic walk to the trump. If an item is on that path he will pick it up and abort the walk, however control is not returned, so merlin get stuck forever. The same happens when merlin dies during this walk (by using cheats)... however this time the ability to cycle and use items is regained, but still not the ability to simply walk :P
klmz wrote:
EDIT 4: Note that D is further away from the rainbow than E is.
ye I'll have to test what's faster.. walk from D, or continue teleporting D->L->G->E, that's the only way to reach E though (ok, one could use the underground layer but that doesn't seem viable for reaching G with blue open.... *maybe* after beating Spyder)
edit: seems that walking from D is faster... ofc a solution that ends at G anyway would be faster still
klmz wrote:
pass3A: Hourglassgate flower & wood
surface at X zone OR surface at G zone
if the heartpiece is not to be picked up in pass3, then it's definately faster to deathwarp back to zone G and teleport G->E, since there's ants to die off right next to the flower&woodenHeart
klmz wrote:
EDIT 6: Will it be faster to teleport A->O->F->B than just walk past A to B?
good question about A->O->F->B vs walking A to B... will test tonight
edit: heh lol, it takes about 3 times as long to warp from A to B than to simply walk. more data below!
btw one of my pass2+heart routes visits A, so picking up the heartpiece from there would have minimal inpact... so I'll start praying that that route happens to be the fastest one :P
also gotta test whether it's possible to defeat Spyder, pick up that wooden heart and still die/deathwarp off him
edit: it is possible (even realtime) to deathwarp off Spyder after taking his heart (doesnt that sound nice :))
1 warp =~= 190 frames
deathwarp =~= 120
up->down loadtime =~= 150
walk A to B =~= 185 frames
crouch from F to B =~= 900 frames
crouch from F to K =~= 650 frames
crouch from K to B =~= 800 frames
walk from C to F =~= 170 frames
walk from N to M =~= 200 frames
walk from J to I =~= 200 frames
walk from L to O =~= 275 frames {298}
walk from D to E =~= 300 frames
walk from D to rainbow =~= 350 frames {344}
walk from E to rainbow =~= 80 frames {88}
crouch from G to Spyder =~= 900 frames {967}
crouch from N to Spyder =~= 800 frames {708}
crouch from J to Spyder =~= 900 frames {768}
walk from N to underground-entry (excludes the load) = {222} frames
IJLO entrance to Spyder =~= 900 frames
get wood from C (use a drink, deathwarps back to C) =~= 520 frames
get wood from F (deathwarps back to F) =~= 300 frames
get heartpiece B->B =~= 700 frames
get heartpiece B->A =~= 500 frames
IJLO entry -> L =~= 100 frames
IJLO entry -> I =~= 200 frames
IJLO entry -> J =~= 125 frames
L -> I =~= 175 frames
NMexit -> IJLO exit =~= 400 frames
ILJO_UG_entry -> J = {76} frames
G's_UGentry -> G = {54} frames
as you noticed, this maze' a real headcracker :D so many possible solutions... :X
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might as well post all the alternatives I'm concidering (still not done though, so more routes might come up, like yours)
for now, I'm looking for the fastest 8 passes, namely the main four both with and without the heartpiece in AB (so 4x2)... then I can see which pass takes least additional time to pick it up
note: the heartpieces at the dragon and SE underground can be ignored as no choices are available
I added your version (with some small improvements) as well
edit: in your pass 1 beta (in contradiction to what you might expect going by my map :P) it's faster to pick up CF's wooden heart from teleport F rather than C (and it comes by both anyway)
edit: see below (other post)
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new WIP at bottom of this post
klmz wrote:
o_O You can firgure out these maps? Congratulations!
DaTeL237 wrote:
(...)
I am wondering whether you can (ab)use some similar glitches to "use the wooden hearts" without consuming them.
heh ye after some puzzling i managed to figure the map out :x
I wondered the same about the wooden hearts... and couldn't find any way to abuse it
when i glitch the bottles at the basins, an ingame debug message pops up with a text something like 'no bottle to replace', and the message is remove by pressing any non-directional button... so this 'keep your content' glitch is imminent when the game attempts to replace an item in the inventory by another item, which is not the case with the wooden hearts (these are simply removed)
strangely enough, i can't replicate the glitch at any of the ponds nor by drinking (both cases should have a 'replace item' call)
now that I'm typing this, more ideas are coming up :P will do some more extensive testing after the run reaches that point of using the rainbow-gem (and will post that WIP+state)
I tried some realtime runs through rainbowland and several routes are very close, so I'm not sure which1 to take...
from these tests it's quite clear that collecting the heartpiece in zone AB should not happen in pass1, but im still in doubt whether it should be pass 2 or 3 :P
edit: here's the new WIP, stops at rainbowgate
use Snes9X v1.51+5 and FastForward to frame 50K to take off where the last WIP stopped
btw ever since i swapped from 1.51 to 1.51+5 I never had a single desynch :)
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klmz wrote:
IIRC, I glitched something in Rainbow Land the second time I played and beat the game, but I don't recall what was it. However, it doesn't matter because I don't recall that it was useful, either! :P
maybe it was the same thing i mentioned earlier (well i never said what it was :P)
basically, with some effort and dmg-boosting, merlin can walk right through the enemies that guard a wooden heart... the one that would usually require the comb. With invincibility-water it can also be done realtime btw.
Although reduced by one, still gonna be a bitch to backtrack to the tree-stump three times but so far i couldn't figure out any way to dmg the spider('s cone) without Snow Flake, nor a way to bypass the gate that needs the hourglass :/
so it'll be
collect 3 wooden hearts and 4th flower
get silver dust, comb, snow flake
kill spider for 4th heart
get hourglass
collect final heart & flower
get lightning bolt
kill dragon & enter final dungeon
i can see some extensive death-abuse here :D
btw i also couldn't find a way to hurt the dragon without both hourglass and lightning bolt (i expected to not truly require the hourglass tbh)
edit:
here's my do-it-yourself map of rainbowland :)
[URL=http://img169.imageshack.us/my.php?image=rainbowlandlp5.png][/URL]
now to find a proper route :P
edit2: oh btw, using (AR) cheats one can find out that K teleports to X.... very nice, but K is not reachable in an opened state :P too bad
colored arrows mean that that color teleport needs to be open
black arrows mean one can travel there by going underground
gray arrows mean there's special requirements (either 'kill(ed) spider' or 'have&use hourglass')
oh and i see i made an error :P NM->G should be black and G->NM gray instead of the other way around
or a more abstract version:
[URL=http://img50.imageshack.us/my.php?image=abstractdn5.png][/URL]
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klmz wrote:
Hmm, you are doing well. However, the Meanie left on the bridge will be a trouble if you are planning to get some invincibility water again.
heh, i (ab)use a glitch that allows me to keep my bottles' content :D so i fill up the basins but still have all 3 types of water!
oh and btw, the meanie on the bridge disappeared when i used the password :P
edit: something that would be really useful is a way to skip the cut-scene that shows upon throwing the final (indigo) gem into the pond
to 'play' the cutscene one has to press 'start' to make the lady-of-the-lake disappear, but i tried all kinds to stuff (like making the start-menu appear) but nothing works :(... so *long* time of no action :P
edit2: hmm i should try what happens when i'm in the exact same spot as where an enemy would spawn (like the eye-bat from the shadow king)
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The Great Morphologous wrote:
DaTeL237 wrote:
(...)
There seems to be a problem with some of the directions. For example, 5 ends up moved two up and two left, but that's in the lava.
hmm sorry i made a typo, fixed that now
The Great Morphologous wrote:
Also there's no reason to not finish 4 5 and 6 before touching 1 2 or 3.
I disagree, by not interleaving them merlin travels the field some extra times which costs time
The Great Morphologous wrote:
You're making great progress with the run and it is coming to make an entertaining movie. One thing I'd like to see though is some last second movements/decisions with the next mine cart section. IMO, It doesn't look as impressive or exciting if you're holding the input for the next turn five seconds early.
sorry, i know the minecarts would look better that way, but this way is faster :) switching from 'tilted' to flat costs time so its (slightly) faster to remain tilted out of a corner
looking back at it though, ye some could still have been done 'as late as possible'... oh one additional 'issue' is that the very latest moment would be even slower because merlin will get warped back a few pixels :P
thnx for feedback
edit: found a (quite obvious :P) way to skip using the comb, and thus a trip back and forth through rainbow land :)
gonna have to make a map of rainbowland sooner or later though
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ok I've done some work on this again
re-done the mines to end up with 'only' 9 hp instead of 10, and did not use the stun dust this time :P
i collect the 10th heartpiece together with the fish, then head back and collect the spring and all types of water
afterward i go to the dwarven palace and use the attained password to 'collect' the air bubble and the bubble wand
btw i need to take an extra drink from the clear water to make it through the underwater cave in only 1 re-breath
here's the currect WIP, sorry for not providing a savestate :P 15 minute mark passes as the palace loads :D
now i gotta figure out alot of stuff for the rest of the run :)
edit:
cant really find any 'tricks' on the shadow king (after 2nd minecart)...
no way to walk/warp/bug through him, so he has to punch merlin back which causes hp to be set to 64 (256 is 1 full heart).... if merlin already has 64 or less, hp becomes 1... if merlin has 1 hp (only possible with AR) hp remains 1
getting dmg or using an item simultaneously with triggering the punch does nothing unexpected either :(
gotta test 1 more theory.... drink invincibility potion, then 'be pushed through' by the eye-bats
edit2: nvm that theory... those eyes/bats dont have any kickback :
edit3: filling the basins is fastest by far going from left to right
unfortunately, the 'framerate' is very irregular in the palace... very very often 3 or even 4 frames are used for only 1 redraw (so far usually 2 were).. i hope this won't cause (more) desynchs :x
edit6: seems that cycling through the Y-button items causes such 'lags'.. which afaik didn't happen elsewhere
edit4: hmm hadn't considered doing basins right-to-left and then warping, will try asap :)
edit5: im also cracking my head over how to solve the block puzzles fastest. downloaded some apps to help me (this kind of puzzle is called 'sokoban')
and the fastest solution they came up with is this (in terms of amount of moves)
5UL, 4RRR, 5U, 6L, 3U, 2LL, 1DDD, 2L, 4U, 1RRR, 2DDDD, 6LUU, 4L, 1UU, 2R, 3DDDD, 2RRRU, 3LLLU
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I'm sure others know the facts, but I'm guessing that the door-opening-trigger is internally linked to the get-inside-castle trigger.... thus without opening the door it's impossible to truely enter?
*if* thats true, then the best chance of opening the door is by reaching the open-door-trigger from a valid state (out of water, standing on ground) within 1 frame.... and hope that the check for triggers is programmed to go ahead of the check that puts mario into a swimming state?
e.g. frame x mario is BLJing at high speed on solid ground..... frame x+1 mario is in front of castle door
sorry if this turns out to be just an annoying noob's post :D
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crap.... just found a 9hp fish-break (which was the point of progress)... so gotta backtrack from inside the mine and get only 1 extra hp
also not quite sure yet when and how i should collect the 10th heartpiece (west underwater) either walk, or deathwarp-to-NW-hole, or deathwarp-to-SE-hole
more testing to do :P
(5 after tulip pickup, 6 after enemy in mine, 9 after drinking clear water)
edit: on hold due to personal/reallife reasons
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dartht33bagger wrote:
I don't think the extra little steer does anything. The speed stays the same so I'd imagine that its fine (may be wrong though).
it depends on what the speed indicates (or more precisely, how the game was programmed :P)... but it could be the case that you have max speed, but not in the direction you want it to be (namely, 45deg off)
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yes i still am but I currently have no time to even touch it atm :( so progress paused with merlin just inside the mines
pc is having increasing amounts of bootup and HD problems as well ... better save a backup :P (here)
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heh nice theory on the invincibility, makes perfect sense from a programmers point of view
I've done the hedge maze, collected the lantern and walked back to the heartcontainer in the oinkmer field... about to fill up the 2nd bottle with clear water, so now I'm going to have to figure out whether or not it's profitable to have an extra sip+fill (gaining 2 hp... ), if it is then merlin can have that tiny warp twice (collecting the tulip in between)
so into the mines for testing, gotta figure out how the game determines when a heart drops :)
edit: err no I'm not, desynched en-route to the lantern
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*wow* great result and great to watch :) keep it up!
any chance somebody could upload the Investigation vid again? the yousendit link has expired long time ago :P
edit: nvm they're linked on TheElite now
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heh I was using the same addresses and these
7EEC10,2u,X Position (2)
7EEC12,2u,Y Position (2)
7EEC16,2u,X Position (3)
7EEC18,2u,Y Position (3)
7E184E,1u,action cooldown
7E02F8,2u,camera Y (1)
7E02F4,2u,camera X (1)
7E02FB,2u,camera Y (2)
7E02F6,2u,camera X (2)
the 'action cooldown' indicates whether merlin can start a new action (e.g. shoot a star, 0 for 'ready to go')... I suppose it's pretty much the same as your 'freeze'
I'm not sure about the deathwarp-to-rainbow pond, afaik only those plants will make merlin warp to the rainbow pond (the oinkmers make him warp to the tulip-pond)
and yeah you're right about the moment of collecting the tulip
still haven't properly tried the bubbleskip with 9hp (i too was only like 4 frames short... actually merlin get's warped to the position for re-oxigizing but still dies)
oh and the hedgemaze route that's one of the three routes i'm going to try... alternatives (imo) are:
Bottle->Death->Key->Rose->Heart->Death
Bottle->Rose->Heart->Death->Key->Death
edit:
lol i made a stupid mistake, I collected the very first heartpiece on the re-run.... because I thought 'gotta catch em all' anyway.... but now I get refilled to 4hp by the lakelady :P back i go again :D
edit2:
ok here's the fastest way i could get into pinedale without going invincible (merlin is graphically still a bit off-center)
http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/119245348/Rewind.smv
I'll be looking into all the other stuff for a while now... as i'm not sure I fully understand the cause of merlin going invincible (note that not walking all the way rightward before getting 'thrown by a tree' will produce different results) so I was hoping you (klmz) could help me out some more :P
edit3:
I found that not many frames 'produce' health in the mines... and still trying to figure out what exactly triggers it :P
Also, it seems from some quick real-time testing that your route for the maze is easily the fastest
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still couldn't make it past the knight :( merlin needs to be 2 pixel higher than he is when he walks up to the wall next to it (to make it through)... also I don't think there's a way to lock the camera in the palace is there? (this would mean you could just walk right through it)
here's a map of the hedge maze
I think that the route after collecting wrench should be (under the assumption that 10 hp is needed for the airbubble skip... which i haven't tried hard enough yet :P):
- collect hedge-maze items (*)
- collect lantern
- collect heartpiece @ oinkmerfield
- throw orange jewel in pond (*)
- collect (cart)wheel + heartpiece
- in the mines: collect all mine items (2x heartpiece, 1x bottle) and manipulate enemies to drop health until merlin has 7 hp
- ride the minecart (1x heartpiece)
- collect western underwater heartpiece
- drink clear water for hp
- do airbubbleskip
- backtrack to the wizard to collect spring
- fill bottles with clear and rainbow water (**)
- re-enter underwater parts
- do palace
- on way back (either to throw either green or indigo jewel) collect northern heartpiece in underwater parts (using airbubble which was granted in the password)
*note: during either of these, the 2nd bottle will have to be filled with clear water (3hp)
**note2: alternatively, one could have the 1st bottle filled with rainbow water, and then merlin will have to detour to get blue and clear water, but I'm fairly certain that this would be slower
I've drawn the mine-route on your map, I think the purple route is fastest (even when collecting health) but the green alternatives will need to be checked
btw there's no heartpiece in the northeast chamber in the mines, only the red jewel
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klmz wrote:
Great discovery. But now I am failing to get past the guardian skipping the gem for mirror.... I'll do some research there.
heh I did/tried the same without success so far
it seems that you can get closest by starting on the righthand/far side and then dmg-boosting into him while walking left
gotta do some more testing anyway. still need to go get the mirror to see at what point merlin would make it through... if the backward-pushing trigger is very large it'll be hopeless :P
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klmz wrote:
You can avoid these trouble by entering Pinedale at right frames, then no invincibility or long-term graphic errors.
I updated the map with correction. I haven't decided to TAS this game because I haven't found a way to skip the air buble and I hate to revisit a place(the underground palace) too many times.
hmm only tried varying the moment of first entering pinedale... not the moment of leaving or re-entering (I assume you used the same procedure?... enter, leave, re-enter)
I ran into the same problem with the bubble :/ it's easy to catch the fish without airbubble, but i can't make it back to safety in time and haven't found a way to prevent the item 'reset' (strangely, bottle states are not reset)
edit:
w00t! Found a way to get the fish without the bubble :) I think 10 hearts are required (maybe less by using some fancy dmg-boost off a cave-fish?)...
here's a demo of how to do it
i went ahead and watched what happened later and the results are nice, the password-giving-lady grants a password that has both the airbubble and the bubble-wand, so both the red gem (from the mine) and the blue gem (from where the password is attained) can be skipped :D
just gotta figure out the grand route now (quite strongly influenced by how much health is needed to get the fish)
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nice map, one tiny flaw in it... there's another (and required) junction at the corner north of warp #8
I was working on a map of the hedge maze myself but progressing slowly :P
you're right about the procedure, just a shame that it means that the graphics will be messy for a very long time (it'll be fixed when the balloon is first used)
note also that by doing this, death-warps cannot be used until then (in the hedge-maze) since merlin is invincible
btw I'm not sure what the fastest way to collect both the yellow/orange jewel and the fairy-block is... they don't fit on 1 screen so i thought this'd be best:
- collect jewel
- wait for lake-lady to appear
- get hit
- collect fairy-block
- die
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klmz wrote:
(...)
aha thnx for the advice, I'll go back and fix the gem-throwing procedure
as for the 'get hit to break lake-lady-animation', that's exactly what happens :) (I'm offscreen when I press Start...)
I'm not quite sure I understand how to break the 2nd 'Meanwhile', afaik as soon as i press Y to throw the fairy-block in the pond Merlin will be 'in animation'... locking me down and ignoring all input? (no enemies around to get hit by)
edit: oh I found a way to break 2nd 'Meanwhile',
-die during the 1st 'Meanwhile' (to put camera in the correct place)
-throw fairy-block in pond
-press start to regain control
reading your text I'm starting to think that's what you meant :P
edit2:
next I'll have to try if i can actually make it to some place useful (the wrench)
if so, then the entire procedure would be:
-break 1st Meanwhile
-collect fairyblock
-die
-throw block in pond
-press start & break 2nd Meanwhile
-collect wrench/item/etc
-enter password
I'm not sure if the wrench would be merged into the password though
comments welcome ofc
edit3: unfortunately quickhexing for this game doesn't work very well :( gotta redo the entire thing from the start :D
edit4: tried some stuff with the break-2nd-meanwhile... and stuff is getting messy :P anyway I couldn't get the wrench to be stored in the password given by the fairy
i did get the invulnerability-glitch too but everything is a mess, e.g. merlin isn't drawn in the correct spot, etc
if you feel like TASing this game again we could make it a joint effort
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aha, it seems i found the same glitch then :) not sure if I've exploited it to the max (e.g. invulnerability?)
also couldn't find a way to break the 2nd 'Meanwhile'
see WIP here:
http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1164430940/YM_DaTeL237_WIP.smv
edit: ok I watched your demo and it's a nice idea but...I'm not sure whether or not i should use the game-given password
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thnx for the warning but I did some testing and it turned out ok for the first 5K frames (using loads of savestates/rewinds/etc)
btw my Mr Nutz run (on 1.51) only desynched about 4 times during the creation of the entire run :)
only drawback with 1.51 is that i cannot directly use LUA stuff :(
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I started looking into this game today, I'll post a test/WIP tonight... already found a nice glitch (which will be in it)
note that if I complete this, it will be a all-items run (so bottles and hearts)
edit: I know that this is both a very old thread and a 'request'.... nevertheless should this discussion remain in here or get a new thread?
edit2: ok the test/wip wont come tonight... but it will soon
[/URL]
now to find a proper route :P
edit2: oh btw, using (AR) cheats one can find out that K teleports to X.... very nice, but K is not reachable in an opened state :P too bad
colored arrows mean that that color teleport needs to be open
black arrows mean one can travel there by going underground
gray arrows mean there's special requirements (either 'kill(ed) spider' or 'have&use hourglass')
oh and i see i made an error :P NM->G should be black and G->NM gray instead of the other way around
or a more abstract version:
[URL=http://img50.imageshack.us/my.php?image=abstractdn5.png]
[/URL]
5UL, 4RRR, 5U, 6L, 3U, 2LL, 1DDD, 2L, 4U, 1RRR, 2DDDD, 6LUU, 4L, 1UU, 2R, 3DDDD, 2RRRU, 3LLLU
I think that the route after collecting wrench should be (under the assumption that 10 hp is needed for the airbubble skip... which i haven't tried hard enough yet :P):
- collect hedge-maze items (*)
- collect lantern
- collect heartpiece @ oinkmerfield
- throw orange jewel in pond (*)
- collect (cart)wheel + heartpiece
- in the mines: collect all mine items (2x heartpiece, 1x bottle) and manipulate enemies to drop health until merlin has 7 hp
- ride the minecart (1x heartpiece)
- collect western underwater heartpiece
- drink clear water for hp
- do airbubbleskip
- backtrack to the wizard to collect spring
- fill bottles with clear and rainbow water (**)
- re-enter underwater parts
- do palace
- on way back (either to throw either green or indigo jewel) collect northern heartpiece in underwater parts (using airbubble which was granted in the password)
*note: during either of these, the 2nd bottle will have to be filled with clear water (3hp)
**note2: alternatively, one could have the 1st bottle filled with rainbow water, and then merlin will have to detour to get blue and clear water, but I'm fairly certain that this would be slower
I've drawn the mine-route on your map, I think the purple route is fastest (even when collecting health) but the green alternatives will need to be checked
btw there's no heartpiece in the northeast chamber in the mines, only the red jewel
