Joined: 11/22/2004
Posts: 1468
Location: Rotterdam, The Netherlands
Oh wow! I remember Ragowit's run and how much I disagreed with it being rejected. Now it's been redone, and it looks much better. A clear unequivocal yes from me.
The main objection from people here seems to be that the game is boring. I disagree with that. Although it's "just a puzzle game", isn't it very interesting to see all the perfect solutions deciphered right in front of you?
You know, I can get behind the idea that this game's entertainment value might be difficult to see for some people. It isn't an action game. It was never meant to be. In that sense it isn't as easy to understand this run as, say, a Metroid game--there's not a lot of movement, nobody's being shot, the scenery stays mostly the same. But I'd find it real shame if it were determined again that this game is not fit for this site just because it's different from what most people are used to.
Joined: 11/22/2004
Posts: 1468
Location: Rotterdam, The Netherlands
mz wrote:
I think all/most of us here are INTJ/mastermind, so "Masterminds are rare" may not be so true. :P
Either that, or the delicate search for theoretically perfect ways to play video games attracts a lot of "our kind". (Although those two aren't mutually exclusive.)
Joined: 11/22/2004
Posts: 1468
Location: Rotterdam, The Netherlands
I'm an INTJ type:
44% introverted,
75% intuitive,
12% thinking,
1% judging.
I am
* moderately expressed introvert
* distinctively expressed intuitive personality
* slightly expressed thinking personality
* slightly expressed judging personality
Keirsey.com notes that I'm a "mastermind", which is surely flattering. http://keirsey.com/handler.aspx?s=keirsey&f=fourtemps&tab=5&c=mastermind
EDIT: wow, this is pretty accurate. The emphasized part is exactly how I prefer to work with others.
"Masterminds are rare, comprising no more than, say, one percent of the population, and they are rarely encountered outside their office, factory, school, or laboratory. Although they are highly capable leaders, Masterminds are not at all eager to take command, preferring to stay in the background until others demonstrate their inability to lead."
EDIT 2: though I must admit I'm kind of disturbed by the fact Ayn Rand is listed as having the same personality type as me.
Joined: 11/22/2004
Posts: 1468
Location: Rotterdam, The Netherlands
I'll gladly donate something in the future. I only just found this thread after seeing it in the IRC topic, and Atma told me this is not really a money issue in the first place, but I've seen it being mentioned and just want you to know that you can count me in should that ever come up again.
Joined: 11/22/2004
Posts: 1468
Location: Rotterdam, The Netherlands
AKheon wrote:
>>But I suppose there are two possibilities: either Abe can be controlled or he can't.
I have a small amount of empirical evidence indicating that you can move below the screen. However, since I was controlling a glukkon... maybe it's different?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KXwxejBNUWk
I think it's indeed different. The code for moving around your enemies is different from Abe's (otherwise the game would glitch up if you'd try to turn around one of your enemies while having the "climb down" power; they don't, and you keep the power no matter what). When Abe gets "lost" beneath the stage, it's game over, but it apparently doesn't really matter when it's an enemy.
Still, it's very interesting to know you can move around enemies even in supposed bottomless pits. I doubt it will be useful, but it's worth keeping in mind.
AKheon wrote:
At one of Mudomo temple's first rooms I was able to get Abe to resurface by doing chant + jump. There was a platform below the normal floor Abe could stand on. The platform didn't extend very far, and so, not too long afterwards, Abe plummeted back into the void.
I suppose there are two layers in the Abe developers' level editor: one for tiles and sprites, and one for collision detection. It could very well be so that whoever made that particular level just happened to drag his mouse a bit too far out of screen when he was creating the collision layer, giving Abe a rare and small off-screen platform to stand on.
AKheon wrote:
>>Did random objects disappear in your try?
Yeah, Paramites and other Mudokons disappear, while sligs apparently don't.
I suppose nothing happens to the Mudokon counter when they do? Not that it will make much of a difference even if they do.
Joined: 11/22/2004
Posts: 1468
Location: Rotterdam, The Netherlands
AKheon wrote:
>>Abe keeps falling for about 2 minutes after which the game crashes (edit: a "crash" is really a freeze in this case).
So it happens even if you don't do anything? Then, maybe my previous theory was wrong. In any case, at least in Exoddus I've managed to have something interesting happen while below game area.
Actually, that did happen in Exoddus. But I suppose there are two possibilities: either Abe can be controlled or he can't. In my situation, it seemed like he just kept falling because I could not move him and never heard the landing sound.
Did random objects disappear in your try? I tried it in the Scrabania Temple and a Scrab that was waiting nearby disappeared (the Fleeches did not, and kept crawling around for a while until the game froze).
I'll start trying things again in a second, it's kind of fun. :)
Joined: 11/22/2004
Posts: 1468
Location: Rotterdam, The Netherlands
It's too bad you can only go down with it. The flag seems to disappear when you jump. When you fall down into a "bottomless pit", strange things happen. Random objects disappear and Abe keeps falling for about 2 minutes after which the game crashes (edit: a "crash" is really a freeze in this case). I was hoping for it to wrap around and place him at the top of the map, but that hasn't happened so far.
At some point I tried the bug while some Fleeches were attacking me, and Abe turned into a square of glitch and became unable to move (even though the Fleeches eventually ate him). So I think there might still be unexpected side effects to be discovered. (I tested things on a real console by the way, though I suppose that won't make a difference.)
Joined: 11/22/2004
Posts: 1468
Location: Rotterdam, The Netherlands
From what I understand, a flag is set which allows Abe to climb down from a ledge if you press down while standing at a suitable spot. This flag is turned off after you actually finish climbing down, but it can "kept on" even when you're not actually at a ledge.
I haven't tried this, but judging from the videos, the following must be done:
Stand on the edge of a platform from which you can climb down, facing the opposite direction.
Press down. Abe will begin turning around, because he's not facing the right direction to climb down.
While Abe is turning around, start running to "cancel" the climb down.
Now go to any spot and press down; Abe should climb down regardless if he's allowed to.
Joined: 11/22/2004
Posts: 1468
Location: Rotterdam, The Netherlands
LagDotCom wrote:
Omega wrote:
Ragowit's NES Solomon's Key 2 in 1:04:05.
I did the first 4 or 5 worlds of this (actually I wrote a bot to do it) a while ago, unfortunately he used the (E) version so our times were somewhat difficult to compare.
Well, either way is fine with me; either Ragowit's version is put up for another vote and accepted and yours later obsoletes it, or we take for granted that you'll probably finish your version in not too long.
Joined: 11/22/2004
Posts: 1468
Location: Rotterdam, The Netherlands
BadPotato wrote:
just one question: does this really obselete this one?
If it is, I would greatly prefer to rename the old run as "glitchless"
If I get this right, the reason for obsoleting the old is mainly so we can decide what to do from here on. I think the fact it was outdated shouldn't have mattered, but if others are willing to start making a new run, it's all good to me as long as it won't be rejected for not being as fast as this run.
Joined: 11/22/2004
Posts: 1468
Location: Rotterdam, The Netherlands
Fabian wrote:
You know Warp, when I wrote that, I was like "hahaha I bet Warp is going to be that guy who wants to confront me about this lolol". Do I know my audience.
What did you expect, really? By saying "my favorite music is so much better than the crap that <random other music culture> listens to" you guaranteed it would happen.
Not that I listen to trance, but... you know. That's how arguments get started. By saying provocative things.
Anyway, I kind of like Eric Clapton but I actually know very little about him. I can tell he's within range of my musical sweet spot, though[1]. I guess I'll check out those links later.
[1]: Dylan, Cale, Leonard Cohen, Ramones, Buckley, Young, Lowe, plus about a thousand other relevant artists and a slew of old to very old blues players...
Joined: 11/22/2004
Posts: 1468
Location: Rotterdam, The Netherlands
I think this is a great idea.
I'd like to nominate submission #530: Ragowit's NES Solomon's Key 2 in 1:04:05.
http://tasvideos.org/530S.html
Rationale: for starters, it was given a very short time for feedback before being rejected by Bisqwit for being a poor game choice. The run itself was actually fine, and while I twice brought up its rejection to Bisqwit, I never really strongly pushed for it being sent back to the workbench, despite the fact I find this movie's fate to be very strange.
It's a very enjoyable movie, because even though the movement is grid-based and not difficult to emulate in real-time, it's still baffling to see Ragowit use all the correct strategies right off the bat, "without thinking". I encoded an AVI of it and showed it to many other people, most of which hadn't played the game, and the response I got was generally very positive.
It's a good run for a neat game that got good reactions (mostly off-site, but on-site too) but was still rejected after a rather short time for what I consider to be a subjective reason to a certain extent. That's why I think it should be put up for discussion again.
mmbossman wrote:
This will hopefully end some of the discussion regarding the supposed lack of attention that we as judges pay to the rest of the viewing audience.
While I think this is a very neat idea, I'm not sure if this addresses what I think you're referring to. Those were very specific matters. Just saying; I don't mean to start a discussion, of course.
Joined: 11/22/2004
Posts: 1468
Location: Rotterdam, The Netherlands
Thanks for encoding it ahead of time, andymac.
As for the run, it's a small improvement, but an improvement nonetheless. I liked the autoscrollers more than in the previous version. So, a yes vote. :)
Joined: 11/22/2004
Posts: 1468
Location: Rotterdam, The Netherlands
Aw, too bad I don't have the NES emulator installed right now. Well, either tonight there's an encode by someone or I'll install it. Can't wait to see it. It's difficult to improve such a hotly contested run, so my hopes are high!
Joined: 11/22/2004
Posts: 1468
Location: Rotterdam, The Netherlands
IST wrote:
And once again, I call for a permanent ban of adelikat, or at least a permanent demotion. This should never be tolerated here.
This is kind of ridiculous. I think that it's a bad idea for a judge to have the final say on what happens to his own movie, but it does not stand to reason to demand such repercussions.
I can see why people are already getting tired of this discussion when this sort of argument is being used.
Joined: 11/22/2004
Posts: 1468
Location: Rotterdam, The Netherlands
Bisqwit wrote:
Now, I was not aware whether adelikat handled the judging&publishing himself. Last I noticed, he was hoping mmbossman will do it. If neither did, I would have, and I would have accepted this submission for publication.
The fact that the movie got published is not what matters to me personally—I don't know about the others that are complaining—but what seems wrong to me is the fact that someone judged his own movie. That is what we should be looking at here. Regardless if the decision was sound or backed by other judges or members of the community, this is something that should not happen because it paves the way for potential abuse in the future.
Regardless if this is about individual cases or not, I do still think that it was especially important in this particular situation because of the tepid reception of this submission. Why would a judge choose to accept his own movie somewhat quickly after the reception turned out to be rather unenthusiastic? At best, this just looks really bad.
EDIT: by the way, I just want to say that I have no intention to defy this until the end. I don't need the submission to be reverted. But I do think that now that this has occurred, we should have a discussion about it right here and now. Some people have voiced a pretty legitimate concern, and not taking care of it now will only cause it to come out slowly in random unrelated topics instead. We need to stand somewhere on this.
Joined: 11/22/2004
Posts: 1468
Location: Rotterdam, The Netherlands
It's not very practical to keep videos of old, obsolete versions around. It would either take a massive amount of disk space or require those who are interested to keep seeding the runs forever. You would end up with a lot of dead torrents.
I think we should be doing more with sites like the Internet Archive. A mirror on that site would work very well for the few historical movies that we really want to preserve.
Joined: 11/22/2004
Posts: 1468
Location: Rotterdam, The Netherlands
Alright, it's flashback time. I think it was about 5 years ago. Like so many others, I saw Morimoto's playthrough of Super Mario Bros. 3. As far as I could tell, the movie was absolutely perfect in every way. Not only did he know exactly what to do, he performed everything such perfect style and grace that you could not help but wonder why you ever had so much trouble playing such an easy looking game.
Of course, then it turned out to be "fake". Back then, people mistook his explanation of how he made the movie for an "admittance to cheating". (In general, based on how people feel, they often replace "acknowledgement" with "admittance".) Many people felt like they had the wool pulled over their eyes and were infuriated.
Undoubtedly, a lot of you must have seen a TAS movie someplace else before finding out exactly how they were made. Maybe even without a disclaimer. How did you feel when you realized how it was made? Did you feel bad about it? Or maybe you knew it from the start?
(You can stop reading here if the post is too long for you!)
I actually remember being quite skeptical about Morimoto's SMB3 movie. The most important reasons being the fact he never wasted even a single frame when moving along the overworld and never got caught in one of the extra levels in world 8 (those are luck based, right?)
Initially, I thought it was partly played by a bot, or maybe that he used indicators on his screen to tell him when exactly to jump or fire. Regardless, it didn't bother me too much. He made an amazing movie and did not ever claim that it was pure skill, so as far as I knew the use of special "tools" to aid his play might be something extremely common in some circles. I figured it might also be because he's Japanese; maybe all the communities and tutorials are in a language I don't understand.
When I saw his Mega Man 2 movie, I went berserk and wanted nothing else but to speedrun the game myself and find out if there are other videos like this. That's how I eventually ended up here (long before there was even a forum, though).
