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I step away for two days on vacation, and this topic goes to hell. I've basically made my decision, in consultation with adelikat. I need to verify the run before it gets accepted.
If you'd like to discuss the rules, civilly, go ahead. In the mean time, any more bullshit will get deleted. By bullshit, I don't just mean insults, I mean comments about how this thread is going. Yes, we know it went train wreck for a while. I'm done putting in the effort to preserve posts. I'm just going to start deleting commentary on the thread. If it pertains to either the (J) rom rule, or the content of OoT, it stays.
End of story.
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jimsfriend wrote:
DarkKobold wrote:
I believe this to be a special case, because most of the speedrunning community has switched to the (J) ROM.
So we should also use J rom for super mario World? And we should aim for in game time in metroid games (maybe we already do this, idk)? What about J rom for sm64? Please don't pick on my examples, but rather the point I'm trying to make here. I don't much care either way, btw.
I'm assuming this is a serious question. It is hard to address your point, because I'm not entirely sure what it is. Thus, I can really only address the examples. Is there a legitimate reason for using the (J) ROM for SMW or SM64? I'm pretty sure the SM64 speedrunning community still uses the (U) ROM.
And yes, we do allow TASers to aim for in game Metroid time.
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Sonikkustar wrote:
This topic should be locked now.
We don't lock submission topics, except in extreme circumstances. This is a heated debate, but has not gotten out of hand, people are remaining civil. Please stop requesting us to lock topics that you dislike.
Additionally, as I've said before, I believe this to be a special case, because most of the speedrunning community has switched to the (J) ROM. Thus, future improvements are most likely also going to be done on this ROM. Yes, SL has drawn quite a bit of ire from his behavior in the last submission. However, if most of the community who cares enough to make runs is going to use this ROM, we will be continually rejecting the best quality runs over the inability to read an already incoherent story. In short, if i reject SL's run, it sets a precedent that would prevent the majority of OoT speedrunners/TASers from participating here.
I'm considering moving the rule of using only the (U) ROM to the guidelines. Absolutely anything we can do to encourage the numerous Japanese TASers to come and submit at this site is a positive for the site. There are many nicovideo TASes that would obsolete our runs, for more than just the text. We'd like to make TASvideos the repository of the best runs out there. However, that isn't possible if our restrictions are too draconian, or inaccessible to non-English speakers.
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rog wrote:
The difference here is that the emulator is part of the official release. If you remove the emulator, you are no longer playing the wii version of zelda oot, you are playing the n64 version.
Agreed. Which makes it a sticky situation. It is basically an emulator-wrapped game. There is no easy answer.
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require "gd"
x=0;
while true do
for i = 1,600,1 do
emu.frameadvance();
end;
gdstr = gui.gdscreenshot();
SS = string.format('C:\\antd\\antd%d.png',x);
gd.createFromGdStr(gdstr):png(SS);
x = x + 1;
end;
Warning, this code is untested, I just took a bit from previous code I wrote.
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rog wrote:
What this boils down to, is that the only way to do this run without absusing emulation glitches is to do the run in dolphin,
Actually, it is still abusing an emulation glitch. Just because Nintendo wrote the VC, doesn't magically make everything about their emulation perfect.
And, yes it runs on a console. However, I can install SNES9x on an Xbox. That doesn't magically make every SNES9x glitch legitimate.
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What if Donald Trump gave me $10 million dollars tomorrow?
What if an asteroid strikes the Earth?
Both of these happening is more likely than Nintendo releasing their source code.
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I'm putting a stop to this idiocy and useless attacking now. Consider this an official warning.
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Kyman wrote:
Here is a temporary video of the improvement that I found... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lu_Oe4SF7xU
This uses a GWK to save a wallkick and ends up saving 15 frames (so far) and as of right now, the final time would be 5:02.22.
So, you found nearly triple the number of frames that inspired this submission.
....
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Slowking wrote:
DarkKobold wrote:
This is true. See the recent SDA marathon, Cosmo ran OoT (J) on VC via Wii. (Maximum acronyms, go!)
Those are not acronyms, they are initialisms. (except "Wii", that's just a name)
(yay for being a smartass in my 600th post. I won't break with tradition!)
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At this rate, I'm thinking we should just leave SM64 on the workbench indefinitely.
(joking)
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Swordless Link wrote:
I was just being an ass in that thread cause I was annoyed at the time, though.
You spelled whiny brat wrong.
Swordless Link wrote:
I'm really not interested in "annoying the site" as a goal, that's asinine.
Thank you.
Swordless Link wrote:
The OoT speedrunning community only fully switched to the Japanese ROM in (I think) March 2011.
This is true. See the recent SDA marathon, Cosmo ran OoT (J) on VC via Wii. (Maximum acronyms, go!)
Swordless Link wrote:
Please try to calm down. My run is likely going to be published because it has had a very positive viewer response. I hope you don't flip out if this happens.
Agreed. Lets drop SL's motivation, bitchy or otherwise, and focus on the run.
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MrGrunz wrote:
There are almost no runs of any game out there, that are entertaining to people that haven't played the game.... If you haven't played the game you are usually the wrong person to give a vote on a run of this certain game.
I want to expunge this idea quickly! There are numerous runs on the WB most of the time that have very few votes. It is in NO WAY a requirement that you have played the game to watch, vote and comment. This is totally against the nature of the site.
Please people, watch, vote, and comment on runs of games you have never played!
P.S. Never played Chrono Trigger, loved the crap outta the run.
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Kirkq wrote:
My opinion is that a submitted (U) run that is at most 11 minutes slower than this run should be able to obsolete this run. Text differences should not be a factor in choosing the more optimal run.
This is already the rule. The key would be to prove it. However, I'm sure after posting this, about 10 OoT experts could come out of the woodwork and tell me exact frame counts.
Yes, I think SL did the (J) rom initially to be petty. I find that amusing and somewhat sad.
However, that said, SL is not banned from the forums or IRC, so per our rules, the run will be evaluated for the runs sake. (I point this out, simply to remind people that the only time an author factors into the run is if said author is banned from the entire site, i.e. IRC, forum, and main site.)
On the side of the run, it is clearly the best OoT "MST" TAS available. (Needs 6 more acronyms, however.) Additionally, the site's rules about (J) ROMs have become far weaker than they initially were. We'd like to see more, better runs on the site, not put up additional hurdles. There are numerous NES Dragon Quest runs I'd love to see submitted here.
Additionally, while we generally try and maintain a somewhat isolated community, (i.e. our site is not run by Metroid2k2's determination of "legit"), it is good to look at what other speedrun/tas community is doing. OoT on (J) has become standard for speedruns.
In short, I see no issue with the (J) ROM.
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Spider-Waffle wrote:
When you start run things with a dictatorship and ultimate everything is based of the viewpoints and values of that one individual, ban major contributors and rule against what valuable, well respected community members want, you end up losing what was once so great. You get a shit-storm mess like lybia, people defect and make their own websites, the community gets split-up, grudges are held, and ultimately the community and the viewers suffer.
Spider-Waffle wrote:
Nevertheless, the single entity which holds the ultimate power here has said he think this glitch should not be allowed no matter what emulator you use, VC or GCN. I'm pretty sure I'm not the only that thinks that's a ridiculous extremist viewpoint.
Knock off the melodramatic crap. First off, I said should be banned, not is. I was stating my personal opinion in the thread, not making a judgment from atop mount Olympus. You overestimate my power on this site. Secondly, it is an absurd and insulting comparison to a disagreement over techniques in a TAS to people who fought and died under a cruel dictator. No ones life is at stake here. No actual site-policy decision has been made, so knock off the exaggeration.
Scepheo wrote:
If people actually think that the N64 crashing with Stick on B is a glitch that needs fixing, then I guess we need to fix OoT too before there's any point in TASing it.
Oh hey, the N64 behaves in a faulty way (crashing with stick on B) due to a programmer oversight, we should fix this because we don't like it!
But hey, OoT behaves in a faulty way (BA being one of many examples) due to a programmer oversight, but we shouldn't fix it because that's just the way the game is!
I do hope I'm not the only one finding this a horribly arbitrary point of view. And yes, you might be able to use Stick on B on GameCube and Wii, but unless you're TASing those (hint: you're not, or you're in the wrong forum) and not the N64, you should stick to what the N64 can do.
Thank you, this a perspective that I hadn't thought of.
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I'm excited to watch this. Great job finishing this SL.
One quick question - you changed the branch name from all quests to something far more verbose. Is there a specific reason "All Quests" isn't sufficient?
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There were a few Shining Force games released only for mobile phones in Japan. I'd love to be able to play them, but there is no emulator, no way to import them, etc.
AngerFist wrote:
FODA wrote:
I'm glad this has stayed on topic.
Warp.
LOL.
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I honestly thought the comments in this thread where overblown.
Then I watched the movie. Wow, that was pretty awesome. The psuedo-death abuse was interesting.
Also, damn, he looks like the single most depressed hero this side of Final Fantasy.
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snorlax wrote:
While basically every previous SMB run had synced when it was played back on a NESBot, that run had one specific trick that caused a desync on the console.
No one actually ever tested adelikat's theory. It desync'd on new PPU, which may or may NOT be more accurate. Actually, I believe I'm the only remaining person with a working NESBot. Scratch that, mine is currently in pieces. micro500, who is never around, is the only person who can test atm.
Actually, I'm starting to see slowking's point, but not in a way that will make him happy. If the VC 'version' really is just the OoT rom being emulated, then Deku stick on B should just be banned, outright. It is an emulation error. Does it matter if the emulation error is inside the Wii, which is also being emulated by dolphin?
I'll remind you, there was a Super Mario Land 2 run, as part of the first (iirc?) Dream Team Contest. It beat the game, but was determined to never work on actual hardware. That run was rejected. We strive to do the best run which, at least in theory, is playable on a console.
snorlax wrote:
There are a number of obvious differences here. In SMB, we're probably looking at maybe 26 frames, while in OoT, we could be talking about many seconds or even minutes. In SMB, disallowing the glitch would cause a slight deviation that could probably be hexed in, but it would mean a major route change in OoT. In SMB, the trick was a pixel-perfect glitch that no one would have reasonably tested beforehand. On the other hand, it's clearly widely known among OoT players in which versions of the game you can use a deku stick on B and in which versions you can't. It also changes a fundamental aspect of the typical RBA route that runners use these days, enough so that it's a factor in which version people would use, while no one would ever think twice about whether they can actually use the SMB glitch on a console.
You pretty much nailed it here. Going into a run, basing it off a trick you 100% know will not work on a console is a far different from "might not sync when playing through an NESBot-type device."
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keatsta wrote:
Would the staff be open to the idea of someone coming on to attempt something like this? I can't say I'd have absolute confidence in being able to do it until I knew more about the current code, but I have done a fair bit of work in site backend, database interaction, etc. There's nothing about what I perceive to be the project that strikes me as outright impossible, at least.
We are always willing to accept extra help! We can also give you a local version of the site to play with, make improvements, etc.
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Slowking wrote:
What seems really silly to me is having to use an emulator in an emulator, where only people with high end computers will be able to play it back at full speed, to get the exact same result, you can get with a different graphics plugin (already availible) on mupen.
And it does work in mupen. That's the whole point. Nobody is talking about reprogramming mupen to allow stick on B.
We get it. You don't like this rule. Get over it. Repeating yourself 50 more times isn't going to change it.
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Warp wrote:
Splitting the site into more categories has been suggested several times in the past. It has never caught.
Derakon wrote:
There's millions of different ways the site could be modified to better support niche runs. All that's needed is for someone to make the code changes.
This is the big issue. It takes 10 seconds to write a post about what should be done, i.e. telling others what to do. It takes hours, personal commitment, energy, and money to start a new site, or make massive overhaul to this site's structure.
So yeah, people keep coming up with great ideas on how to improve the site. No one with the knowledge of internet/database type stuff has come forward to make a commitment to upgrading the site.
The people on the admin team with that knowledge, Grunt, zeromus, adelikat, Bisqwit and Nach, honestly spend most their time (they invest in the site) just keeping things running, the best they can.
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Slowking wrote:
]So by this logic it would be okay to use stick on B with the VC version in dolphin, but not with mupen?
Well, then it would be a VC TAS, not an N64 TAS. Part of our whole mission statement is that the games can theoretically be played back on their respective console. We'd be going against that concept if we knew it wasn't actually possible.
So I'd say Deku stick on B should not be used in mupen.
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I tried to stop the discussion here, but it seems to have failed.
I shifted the discussion of multi-categories to a topic in sites.
This topic is for discussing strategies, and ideas for TASing this game, not the structure of this site. Take that discussion to the separate thread.
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Holy crap people. Lets wait and actually see the run, and what tricks are used.
If RBA to get whatever is replacing the RBA to get the medallions, then it probably won't deserve a different category. Additionally, from what the actual TASers have been saying, the route isn't even fully planned yet.
I'm not making a decision yet, and neither should the rest of you. Speculation leading to intense arguing at this point is silly.
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