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I really like how the movie ends in relation to the final boss fight. Very cool.
However, I really don't like the submission text.
What bugs were abused? What did you buy from the one shop? I'm withholding my vote, hoping it will encourage you to update the submission text.
EDIT: Voted Yes after I found the old info in the old submission text. However, it would be nice for future viewers if you included at least some of the same info.
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Ramzi wrote:
DarkKobold: I hate to call you out on this, particularly since you said I was right, but what does information theory being a branch of mathematics have anything to do with the question? Mathematics is a non-physical abstraction (or is at least easily viewed that way.) Telling Warp, "There is a non-physical abstraction called information theory that studies this," doesn't really answer the question of how something non-physical is transfered physically.
It had already been stated numerous times, that the only thing transfered was physical, i.e. the paper and arrangement of ink.
Everything else is an abstraction purely based on information theory. But yeah, I can see where it wouldn't seem to be an answer.
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Regardless of the thoughts of cosplayers, the costume is really well done.
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Deep Loner wrote:
But for what was in the scope of the original question... somebody please blow a hole in this if it's wrong, because, for the number of intelligent people taking part in this discussion, why this is still a question is something I don't understand. It's like asking, "How do computers send pictures to each other if there are only wires connecting them?" The answer to Warp's question is common sense observation of how humans communicate. Hasn't anybody bothered to sit down and observe this?
P.S.
This is an expression of genuine bewilderment; there is no intention to flame or offend anybody. But I guess we'll see how the recipients interpret it. ; P
Did you miss this? IT HAS BEEN STUDIED EXTENSIVELY. IT IS AN ENTIRE BRANCH OF MATHEMATICS.
DarkKobold wrote:
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ZeXr0 wrote:
In the last battle of chapter 6, is it possible to get the evil ring with Bleu ? It would save time, I also note that you gain control of Max where you let him, so it would be faster in battle to bring him toward where he's supposed to go.
Actually, I agree with the second part. Bleu can't make it to the ring before the battle ends. However, moving Max closer would probably have sped up the end part.
ZeXr0 wrote:
Edit : If we could calculate how much frame is gain of loss with the difference of moving someone toward the battle vs letting it stay there, it could be faster to move everyone each turn.
Well, if we assume the cursor is 2x the speed of the character, then moving 1 character forward saves time in 2 rounds. (since the cursor has to go back and forth.)
However, moving multiple characters, the cursor has to move to the character, the character moves, and then the cursor has to go BACK to the next character. This really starts to waste time. This was my theory for the latter part of the run.
ZeXr0 wrote:
Edit 2 : Could you luck manipulate the wait caused by the NPC that block your way when you return from the first person you talk (I don't remember her name)
Mahato? I knew someone would mention this. That NPC moves in an exact pattern, regardless of what happens. I'd considered trying to find another NPC close enough to block him from moving, but there is only one, and it is realtively far away.
ZeXr0 wrote:
Edit 3 : In the battle that you have to kill everyone before Ramladu, wouldn,t it be faster to use the evil ring and the halbert to kill the two groups of 4 monsters ?
I only have the one evil ring, and it is used twice that battle. The time it would take to move it to the other side of the battle proved prohibitive. Plus, the halberd doesn't do near enough damage. Perhaps, grabbing the Black ring earlier could have saved time...
I think that all these are good ideas, however, it may wait until someone decides to retry the movie using my tools. I have lots of improvement ideas if that person comes forward.
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ZeXr0 wrote:
DarkKobold, in fact, it's not that hard to do a calculation software. It's pretty easy to take every variable in account, the only thing I don't know, it's if you can extract data from Gens to put them somewhere else.
If not, then it would have to be hardcoded in the RamWatch.
The biggest problem becomes rarity in stacking effects. For example, in SF1, A double hit is rare (4-8%), a critical is rare (4-8%), but a double hit double critical is extremely rare (~.6%). With SF1, I had full control of the RNG pre-value, making the extreme rare common.
For SF2, there is little control over the value, and only at specific places. Thus, if you wanted to stack a miss-counter-double-critical, miss-counter-double critical, it would be nigh short of impossible. Definitely, a no damage taken run is impossible.
Mechuyael wrote:
Dromiceius pointed out that the Japanese version might have a time-based RNG. Perhaps that means that it works exactly the same as SF?
I checked into the J version. The RNG works identical. The ram watch locations are even identical.
ZeXr0 wrote:
And i'll be sure to help with this game, I know it really well :) I'm not quite good with TAS, but I can comment with improvement I see. ;)
I don't know this game. I didn't play it growing up. I'd rather someone come forth and say they want to use tools Upthorn and I develop to TAS this game. I won't do the actual TAS.
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Warp:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Information_theory
and
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Information_entropy
It's an entire branch of mathematics.
Ramzi and Bisqwit were exactly right. You are moving entropy, in your case, a certain arrangement of characters, over a channel, in your case, the paper with the writing on it.
If you can't read English, than the recipe is useless. Therefore, the more important part is the encoder, the person that wrote the recipe, and the decoder, the person that reads it. Otherwise, it is just random characters. Hence, how the term entropy fits in.
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In seriousness, Humans are great at detection and estimation (possibly one of the most important part of statistics).
How does this matter? Dimensionality reduction. A human can easily detect when a movement will cause undesirable results, often long before the actual undesirable result occurs. A human can also easily estimate the result of a movement, which removes the need to test all possible permutations and combinations.
Detection example: Mario performs a jump that will result in the collision with a block. A human knows long before the collision that it will occur.
Estimation: A jump in game X requires holding the jump button for 8 frames, not 7, and not 9. A human can estimate that it will take 7-9 frames, and can easily test 7, 8 and 9. The computer counterpart must test 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10, and etc.
So, unless you build advanced Detectors and Estimators, you can't reduce the dimensionality of the problem of a TAS. Bisqwit is better than I at the math to produce the possible outcomes.
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LagDotCom wrote:
upthorn wrote:
Well I think the fact that no enemy attack ever succeeds at damaging any player character is a bit of a giveaway.
Actually, quite a few PCs die. Have you watched it? :)
upthorn wrote:
Also the fact that only two enemies in the entire game take more than one attack to fell...
As for that, the game might just be really easy. I know it's a stretch, but you can see how another viewer might think this movie is boring and/or unimpressive. I think it's very impressive personally, but just arguing the opposite point.
I actually agree with this. The game doesn't display that a double critical hit happened, because battle messages are turned off. Plus, if you don't know the game, you don't know that the DHDC has a rare possibility of about 4 in 65536 (it changes). Or, that most battle orders were selected from 1 of 65536 different options, making the chance of this run happening on a console 1 in infinity^10.
Additionally, the swing that takes down Darksol, and 5 of the 7 hits on Dark Dragon are all the same RNG input, 119 of 65536. This is the only value in the game that will deal enough damage to take them down.
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Blublu wrote:
DarkKobold wrote:
The name of the thread is "Ask a question, get an intelligent answer." Now, I have a 2 part question. The thread title doesn't say "Ask an intelligent question, get an intelligent answer." Therefore, are you required to intelligently answer any ridiculously dumb question I can come up with? And if so, What is the square root of a pizza with cheese, sausage, and anchovies?
1. No, the thread assumes you have an actual question and aren't just trolling for replies. Read the original topic again.
Well, the reason I asked was the normal line "Ask a stupid question, get a stupid answer."
Since no restriction were put on the question, and a restriction was put on the answer, it seemed like a chance for entertainment. I don't understand why everything has to be so serious on this board.
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The name of the thread is "Ask a question, get an intelligent answer." Now, I have a 2 part question. The thread title doesn't say "Ask an intelligent question, get an intelligent answer." Therefore, are you required to intelligently answer any ridiculously dumb question I can come up with? And if so, What is the square root of a pizza with cheese, sausage, and anchovies?
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Just as an example, here is the arrange battle code from Shining Force 2
02:557C 7C 3D MOVEQ #$3D,D6
02:557E 7E 3E MOVEQ #$3E,D7
02:5580 41 F8 LEA ($F71A),A0
02:5584 30 10 MOVE.w (A0),D0
02:5586 32 28 MOVE.w $0002(A0),D1
02:558A B2 00 CMP.B D0,D1
02:558C 6F 06 BLE #$06 [02:5594]
02:558E 30 81 MOVE.w D1,(A0)
02:5590 31 40 MOVE.w D0,$0002(A0)
02:5594 54 88 ADDQ.L #2,A0
02:5596 51 CF DBFa D7,#$FFEC [02:5584]
02:559A 51 CE DBFa D6,#$FFE2 [02:557E]
And here is Shining Force 1.
00:8F38 7C 1D MOVEQ #$1D,D6
00:8F3A 7E 1E MOVEQ #$1E,D7
00:8F3C 41 F8 LEA ($9C08),A0
00:8F40 30 10 MOVE.w (A0),D0
00:8F42 32 28 MOVE.w $0002(A0),D1
00:8F46 B2 00 CMP.B D0,D1
00:8F48 6F 06 BLE #$06 [00:8F50]
00:8F4A 30 81 MOVE.w D1,(A0)
00:8F4C 31 40 MOVE.w D0,$0002(A0)
00:8F50 54 88 ADDQ.L #2,A0
00:8F52 51 CF DBFa D7,#$FFEC [00:8F40]
00:8F56 51 CE DBFa D6,#$FFE2 [00:8F3A]
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Ok, point made, Upthorn. :)
I may have been a bit hasty in my "impossible to TAS" idea. In reality, the game is very very similar to SF1. Additionally, counter attacks may really reduce the need to have the ultimate control over battle order I did.
So, if someone is willing to do the TAS, I can possibly write the tools for how to achieve it. Essentially, the game is almost identical in form to SF1. It is too bad they eliminated the controller input to the RNG. I've already figured out battle order, since the code is nearly identical.
Here is the rub: It would be by far the most complex planning/input. You get essentially one chance per character to select the RNG value that will dictate a HUGE number of in game choices.
Thus, lets say that 3 enemies attack you after your turn. You'd need to plan all 3 outcomes before closing the menu. Additionally, the 3 outcomes are widely distant from each other. Thus, you'd need to input into the equation every possible variable, attack, miss rate, defense, crit rate, counter rate, for each individual attack. Thus, thats 5 variables, for 3 attacks, so 15 different inputs.
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Really bad news...
I don't think a TAS of this game can be done.
The RNG calculation for SF2 is IDENTICAL, line for line, to SF1. The function for both games is:
R2 = remainder((R1 * 13 + 7)/65536)
R1 = R2
Now, for both games, this may get executed 1-100 times in 1 frame. Thus, to figure out what happens at execution 55, you just need to know R1 before the frame, and execute the previous formula 55 times.
In Shining Force 1, R1 could easily be manipulated by controller input, the frame before the next set of RNG calculations. Thus, nearly any one of the 65536 possible values could be achieved.
In Shining Force 2, R1 can only be manipulated by the player by opening a menu. Additionally, the exact same formula executes once per frame that the menu is open. Thus, the value you may want, which is one out of 65536 possibilities, may take that many frames to get to. Thus, the perfect value could be as many as 18 seconds away!
If anyone finds a way to manipulate FFDEA4, other than what is expressed here, then a TAS is possible. Otherwise, you'd have a long boring run waiting inside menus.
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upthorn wrote:
This is highly impressive stuff, as many have noted during the WIP stage.
Thank you. Don't forget, it couldn't have been done without you!
upthorn wrote:
Towards the end it starts feeling like a lot of time is taken up uselessly shifting focus from one enemy to the next, but I trust that you minimized that to the best of your abilities. All in all, as I said before this is highly impressive, yes vote.
Though, I didn't really understand why you only promoted four characters, I'd appreciate it if you could explain the pros and cons of promoting each character in the submission text.
I tried to fix these in the submission text. Let me know if this is better.
upthorn wrote:
Edit: That screenshot is at the wrong resolution I've taken the liberty of retaking that screenshot at 1x size, and uploading to imageshack here:
Thanks, fixed.
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What happened with this run?
I was really amazed at how optimized the first act was.
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Here is the last WIP I will be posting until submission. It is the first 7 chapters of Shining Force 1, in 2:02:31. Hopefully, since there are mainly boss battles for chapter 8, the final will be under 2:25.
http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1986206782/Shining%20Force%20%28U%29%20%5B%21%5D.gmv
I think Chaos is my new favorite battle. It really demonstrates what happens when you control battle order.
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Why are you being a trendwhore, and not working on Gens? J/K. Kind of.
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Are girls from Finland as hot as girls from Switzerland?
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maTO wrote:
DarkKobold wrote:
Oh, an interesting note: Magic can do half criticals and full criticals. The first seems to be set by the spell, the second is based on the character's critical rate.
Very nice! *with Borat's voice*
Now do you intend to get that Black/Evil Ring on the left side of Mishaela's altar? That could speed up battles where enemies are close each other, like Ramladu's Second.
Using Halberd was not quite a new trick (It's fun to see it though), but did you just start manipulating level ups since I saw only important gains (attack and speed)?
It seems Light Blade can't be used in this run, since Max is so slow, but can it be given to Bleu and use it for Bolt 2?
The halberd use was actually a new trick, because I had to manipulate half-criticals to kill the Gargoyles. The spell only does about 11-13 damage normally.
Level-ups have been manipulated for a while..... :(
A character can not "use" any item he can't equip. Therefore, I've had to make some planning changes in the run. (Amon can't equip the evil ring)
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The game is now more than 2/3rds over. I estimate the final video will be just under 2.5 hours. Ugh. I'd hoped for much less.
A new trick was learned for these battles. It should be obvious.
Oh, an interesting note: Magic can do half criticals and full criticals. The first seems to be set by the spell, the second is based on the character's critical rate.
http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1958513384/Shining%20Force%20%28U%29%20%5B%21%5D.gmv.
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Bisqwit wrote:
mr_roberts_z wrote:
Is the current yes/meh/no poll for submitted movies kind of super-unofficially a 0%-50%-100% rating, with people who say stuff like "marginal yes vote" kind of going in between those values?
I guess, it might be something like that.
Though the discussion still has a much higher effect on the judging than the numbers or choices can have.
I'd like to know how you'd differentiate from a two peak bell-curve, vs. single peak. (i.e. the polarized discussion of OoT vs. just a boring movie).
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When will we see a new version? I'm getting really tired of accidentally turning on Hook Ram and Trace.
Thanks in advance!
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Voted no. Real-time is the point of this website, which is why we do frame counts for movies.
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