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An update!!!
Today is my B-day, so I am taking my time off to work on the time attack!
I am now completed up through battle 7. Mae now equips the power ring in Battle 7... Also, ZeXr0's idea gave me another one, which now means battle 7 is an entire minute faster than attempt 2. Thanks! (I won't spoil the surprise)
Oh, and absolutely nothing can be done about double attacking the zombie in battle 6. Sorry, I tried a million scenarios. Max can't kill 3 enemies before the team gets across the bridge.
I have a few crazy ideas as far as how to attack battle 8. It will take a while to figure out.
http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1335742361/Shining%20Force%20%28U%29%20%5B%21%5D.gmv
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ZeXr0 wrote:
So it's pretty much hard to keep you at the top difference for all the game. Too bad it isn't more manipulable.
Edit :BY the way, is there a reason why you keep XYZ pushed almost all the time ?
You know, the movie is set for 3 buttons, but it seems like XYZ are recorded... I Don't think Gens is actually reading those buttons. They seem to be set randomly.
ZeXr0 wrote:
Edit 2: It seems that some enemies takes more times to decide their moves. Like in the third battle, the bats take 20-40 frames more to decide where to move compare to the other enemies.
Edit 3: It apparent in the third battle, but seems less apparent in the fourth battle, maybe it's just when they are doing a lot of movement, or their movement includes to turn in the way, so that they are not going forward.
Unfortunately, kill order now is completely dictated by turn order. The bats in 3 have to be killed after the dwarves, because the bats move into position, while the dwarves can pretty much attack as soon as you cross the "river" threshold.
ZeXr0 wrote:
Edit 4: If you can manipulate levels, it will saves time if you manipulate big increased, that way you would save time by displaying the message Speed increased by 4 only once instead of 4 times in a row.
But you may want to manipulate as soon as possible if you need it. But it's useless for defence and Hit point.
I've definitely started doing this. Unfortunately, since each battle takes forever, and I tried to optimize it before doing random keystrokes, I'm just going to continue from where I left off.
ZeXr0 wrote:
Edit 5 : In the fifth battle, you kill a mage before entering the village, will he takes a turn before you ?
So, when I get up to the corner by the mountain, if he takes a turn before me when I get to that spot, he blocks me in. If I don't kill him, he takes a turn after me, so I might as well grab the EXP. Also, Zombie 8 (the zombie that chases me up and down) has to go before me, otherwise he'd get an attack in.
LagDotCom wrote:
The bats have a longer movement range, so yes, they take longer to decide. Also, some monsters have set strategies like 'stay in this place until a player reaches tile X'. This usually takes precedence.
This is really the key to manipulating the enemies. For example, in Battle 4, I move Gort across the bridge on the last turn in a battle order. Then, before Max and Mae cross the bridge, I make sure the 2 snipers and mage take a turn, so they start on their downward travel. Once they made this decision, it doesn't matter who goes where, they go to their predefined location. If M&M cross the bridge first, they stay up far away. Additionally, Max crosses the bridge before dwarf 12 moves, so max can kill him. He'd move away. Also, Gort nicely manipulates bat 8 to come towards him so he gets the kill.
Battle 5 also shows this. The mage/zombie block stays spread out until you cross 1 block below desert. By taking the back road in, they never cluster together.
Battle 6, the bats don't move until you fully cross the bridge. Hence why the 3 bats that don't die that round go before any of the force crosses.
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Alright, the level up code is done, and it isn't a pretty situation.
So, here is the Beef.
Your current statistics? They have ZERO bearing on the next level's statistics. The game has a set value for each level. When the RNG kicks in, it doesn't care what the current stat is, only what it should be. Additionally, it can only vary by +/- N, where N = Stat/4 for Stat/4 <= 5; N= 5 for Stat/4 > 5; Therefore, when Max's attack is only meant to be 14, the most it can be off from the set value is 3!!!
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ZeXr0
I can do you one better :)
I am currently working with Upthorn on decompiling the code. It is the last bit of randomness that the game has to offer, and so it needs breaking.
I'll explain how the code works, once I figure it out myself.
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upthorn wrote:
maTO wrote:
ZeXr0: I think the characters should be leveled up to increase their attack so they do enough damage with criticals.
I don't think buying weapons helps (yet, perhaps later) unless you can't manipulate raising attack power on level ups.
Mae is not doing enough damage to kill a zombie on a double strike. A new weapon would help with that.
Unfortunately, there are no new weapons that increase attack power in chapter 2 for Mae.
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Thanks for all the ideas.
ZeXr0 wrote:
I'll take a look at this in 6 hours, as soon as I get home.
Have you consider getting the power potion in the last village in the first chapter ?
Actually, since levels are fixed, when you use the power potion, you destroy the next few level gains.
ZeXr0 wrote:
And getting the speed ring before the first battle of the first chapter might be a good thing.
Actually, the speed ring is anything but. To manipulate the battle order, I want to keep the force's Agility as close to the enemies as possible.
ZeXr0 wrote:
If you can use the power ring while it is equipped, you should think of equipping it to mae, you could save a couple of double hit because you'll hit hard enought to kill some enemies with a critical hit.
I think I will be going back to equip Mae from the get go, so I need less double hit single criticals.
ZeXr0 wrote:
In the last battle of chapter 2, couldn't you just kill the Ghoul ?
Every FRIGGING FAQ says you can do this. My tests show that this is a bunch of hog wash. I've tried every variation under the sun to get this to work.
ZeXr0 wrote:
The second battle of the second chapter. Wouldn't it be faster to not attack the first enemy with Mae and let Gort attack the zombie ? That way you would save an attack and a double hit.
Unfortunately, no. Gort at this point only does 3 to a zombie. Both are need ed to take him out. It is the only time, hopefully for the rest of the game, that this will happen. It only takes 6.5 seconds for the additional attack.
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So this WIP is a huge jump from the last one, and now goes through battle 10. Unfortunately, I'm none too happy with battles 8 and 10. I need to really reconsider how to do them.
Additionally, for chapter 3 and 4, Gort is becoming extremely unnecessary. Should I let him die in battle 8, to save time?
http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1891229879/testqueue.gmv
Any suggestions would be appreciated.
Oh, and one fun note. The enemy never attacks in Chapter 2, until battle 8. The tight quarters of battle 8 make it difficult to avoid the enemy turns. Additionally, the agility of all my team makes it impossible to manipulate double turns, which are used consistently in the run.
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Wow, seriously, I was hoping the scrolling text would end soon. But it kept going.... past the first level. Then I stopped watching. I'm sure it is an amazing TAS, but whoever added all the pointless text needs to be shot, for the good of the world's gene pool.
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Also, an update. Battle 3 is completed. I am now an entire 5 minutes shorter than my last attempt. Additionally, one unnoticeable change to battle 2 saves 10 seconds.
I do pickup Gort. I believe he will help immensely for battles 4 and 6,7,8, and only hurt a little in battle 5.
So, a few interesting facts about Battle 3.
I get attacked 3 times. This is unavoidable. Specifically, the first dwarf attack may seem out of place. This is because a battle queue that contains all players at the beginning, and still clusters enemies correctly does not exist. In fact, here is a little fun math for you.
The are a possibility of 65536 different non-unique battle queues allowed in game. However, mathematically speaking, with 18 different characters on screen, there are 6.5 quintillion (10^15) different permutations of orders that are possible. Thus, I have to select one from only 0.000000001% of the actual ones I'd like to be able to select from. (Additionally, some are repeated, making it even less).
The one dwarf attack at the end of round one is a best case scenario.
Additionally, at the end of the battle, I take advantage of the AI. The AI is stupid.
http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/62170746/testqueue.gmv
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ZeXr0: reading the assembly is actually the LAST part of what needs to be done, and in fact, is the easiest by far, if you do the steps in order. I can help with this, if you are willing to follow these steps.
Step one: locating values that were relevant to the current attack. The most important thing you can find is the total damage dealt, whether it be a double attack or critical. Additionally, things that effect the attack, such as keys pressed, or frame counters need to be found in memory.
Step 2. Locate the frame(s) were this calculation takes place.
Step 3. Get a normal play video going, and get a critical, a double hit, a normal hit, and an enemy miss and hit.
Step 4. Decompile for the exact frame(s) were the calculation takes place, for each of the different parts. I.E. Pause. Turn tracer on. Advance One frame. Turn tracer off.
Step 5. Search for the memory locations in step one. See where and when they are used.
Step 6. Play with memory locations referenced adjacent to those found in step 5. (Upthorn's Gens doesn't currently support this, so use a different version of Gens) See what happens. For example, I found memory addresses in shining force that had the game saying I was doing 100 damage when I only did 6. I found memory addresses the multiplied my attack by any value. Knowing where these get set, and how they work, you have already won half the battle against the code.
Step 7. Read backwards through the assembly. For this, you may need a full decompile of the rom. (the gens decompiler is good, but it makes mistakes, and doesn't show all branches.)
http://emureview.ztnet.com/sega/gentech.htm has a full Genesis Decompiler.
Let me know if you want to do this. I think figuring out the assembly is far more interesting than actually doing the time attack.
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WIP update for battle 2.
http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1630225948/testqueue.gmv
This new method produces amazing results, and it really makes things speed up. This video is 2m33s faster than the original video! However, the new technique takes a really long time. Every round in which an enemy dies, or a level is
gained, the battle queue list needs to be regenerated, which takes MATLAB 3-5 minutes.
Some interesting notes:
The dwarf at the bridge always takes 2 turns in a row when he is alone. This is to remove having to bring the cursor to him more than once every 2 rounds. Additionally, all battle group moves are clustered to minimize cursor movement.
Max is only attacked once the entire battle. This was done to move the dwarf out of the way, so Max can walk further on his turn.
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I had a major breakthrough last night! I can choose and predict battle order!!!! I finally broke the last code I expected to be the hardest. Now, while I can select a battle order, note that not every order that could exist in the real world can exist in the game. In fact, the game only has 2^16 different selectable battle orders, and some repeat. Therefore, when doing the TAS, I am still going to be limited by in game restrictions. The big savings will be in minimizing cursor movement, and maximizing the number of times an enemy is killed before it gets its turn in a round.
I've determined Gong is worthless. His movement sucks and he would not help until the 3rd battle, at which point I could get Gort, which I am currently considering.
However, for everyone curious, here is Gong in the first battle, and second battle, showing how far he lags behind.
http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/849079145/WithGong.gmv
Now, for a little bragging. Using the code I developed for determining battle order, I managed to come up with the perfect battle 1.
First Round: Max goes after goblin 7, moves into position, and gets the quick kill.
Second Round: Everyone goes, except Max, goblin 5, and the knight. Max moves in, and kills goblin 5 before it's turn. Knight moves to strike Max.
Third round: Max goes first, killing the knight, and ending the battle.
The chances for having the second round battle order turn out perfect is 0.006%
Here is the result. The battle ends ~62 seconds faster than my first attempt.
http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1801294615/testqueue.gmv
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Well, I do need to completely restart the TAS. I've found massive problems with my first version, embarrassing problems at that.
First and foremost, I didn't realize it is possible to turn off battle messages. That will save quite a bit of time.
Second, the power ring in the cave is absolutely going to be essential in later levels. It raises attack of 1 character by 15 each use. There is the possibility that it will crack, but that won't happen :)
Gong takes a total of 19.4 seconds to acquire. Additionally, I estimate that he will cost time in battles 1,5,7. He will definitely save time in battles 4 and 8. 2,3, and 6 are a toss up. Less attacks by enemies, but the additional turns and time required to move him....
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LagDotCom wrote:
Small question: Would it be faster to get Gong (by Egressing from the first/second battle) to have more people to fight with, for the first chapter?
Oh, also, would a non-crit from Max have killed the Sniper in the 4th battle? Seemed like a crit for 29 was overkill.
I've actually thought about Gong. Since I am not being driven by a cart, I could get Gong without using Egress before the first battle, which has the possibility of speeding things up.
Gong has good movement in the mountains, which would help destroy all the extra turns taken by goblins. However.... I may have to kill him off in later levels. You will see in the current WIP, a lot of levels will quickly become "walk to the boss, hit for massive damage, ignore all enemies."
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I guess it has been quite some time since I posted a WIP. Here is up through defeating Elliot. I need to redo the entire battle, however. You will note with this work in progress that I score one double critical, and multitudes of single critical/double hits. Had nothing to do with luck, I promise you :)
http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/433836587/Shining%20Force%20%28U%29%20%5B%21%5D.gmv
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I can and will do try it... The thing you are forgetting is that I'm leaving the battle early. So, it may take 10 turns to kill ten enemies, but if I can leave the battle in 5 turns, that is way less moves that I have to wait for.
Every time I stop moving to kill an enemy, that is N-1 extra enemy turns to wait through.
Shining Force 1 has counter attacks, but they may only be post promotion. If so, that will speed up the time attack later...
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ZeXro: Yes, there are many things that effect randomness, but the number one, and single most easy to control, is using the controller. Essentially, each frame, you can change the value by 0 to 255, just depending on what buttons you push. I can go into more specific detail if you want.
Upthorn: I've considered it, but the problem is that you'd have to wait a whole extra round for each attack that slows you down. In battle 3, Mae is mainly used so Max doesn't get surrounded, and can continue on without fighting.
Xoinx: That is a real concern of mine. The run is boring, and even I have trouble watching it. There is no "wow" moments like a normal TAS.
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That is my current question. Level ups seem to be somewhat set. I really would love every level up to be manipulated to max Attack, max Speed, zero Defense, zero HP.
So, I'm up to chapter 3, but considering possibly restarting. Two battles past the first chapter are "kill all enemies" which becomes quite cumbersome, since I only have 2 force members. I think it will require one complete time attack for anyone to get really interested in the speed of this game.
Other fun stuff:
I've determined that I have a very slight chance of achieving double criticals. Strangely, it starts happening quite frequently :)
After my first run gets published, I'll probably publish the tools, to allow competition to beat my time.
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So, I broke Shining Force. The game is now my slave. (ok, so most of the way)
I managed to figure out the code for misses and critical hits. So I can now, with 95% accuracy, get whatever I want out of an attack.
In fact, Shining force makes this extremely easy. There is one word that consist of two bytes (obviously) the upper being the number of frames in which a button is pressed, and the bottom being a negative summation of the button values, 128 for start, 64 for A, 32 for C, 1 for Up and etc.
Now, the game will take this value and spit it through a weird equation, and store it back in the original word. Every time the game wants a random number, it will use this subroutine. Thus, this subroutine gets executed N times before it gets to the value you want. So therefore, you have to trace back N times to get what the controller values need to be at to get your critical or miss.
(It should be noted that occasionally one of the frame counters overflows, which causes a different operation to be performed on the word. However, in the frame perfect world, this rarely happens)
So, after all that mumbo-jumbo, I realized I may be able to make a Shining Force video, with the following restriction:
No damage taken
That would be ubsurd for this game. However, just watch
http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1422849979/gobmiss.gmv
Special thanks to Upthorn for the new utility!
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A few bug fixes/requests-
The trace.log is not "freed" until Gens is closed. Since I am making multiple trace files, it helps to be able to rename it, move it, and start new ones, without having to close Gens
Additionally, the Tracer needs a verbose mode. It currently skips writing a BSR or JSR if it has already encountered it. However, if the Subroutine is executed more than once per frame, it may be impossible to find what happens in some conditional branches that occur within the subroutine. A verbose mode that includes every line executed would help.
The duplicate watch feature is great, it allows for multiple types, but you can't name 2 watches different things. For example, I'm watching FF0EC2 as both a 16 byte hex, and an 8 bit unsigned. However, they both are forced the same name, when I'd like to have them named differently.
A future thing that would be awesome would be to have a window that has all the code displayed that was executed between the current frame and the last frame. That may just be a pipe dream....
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No idea. Impossible to estimate at this time.
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Both Shining Forces could make for very interesting time attacks.
I am, or soon will be, working on a time attack for Shining Force 1. Upthorn mentioned via IRC that he will soon be releasing a version of GENS that includes a partial dissasembler, allowing us to crack the codes of critical hits.
In shining force 1, I am sure it relies on both controller state and the current frame number. (I've found the frame counter in memory) In addition to critical hits, it appears that forcing the CPU to always miss is a possibility as well. I'd love to see a "Hero takes no damage" SF1 run.
The problem will not be critical hits (that should be easiest). The biggest problem will be manipulating Attack queue. It appears to be infinitely modifiable, however, locating the code to determine the attack order will be the biggest hurdle.
Additionally, I also determined that the Double attack is determined as the enemy is selected, and not as the attack begins. Thus, it should be possible to coordinate both doubles and criticals, making for a very powerful move.
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This game NEEDS a TAS. However, that said, I believe that ALL quests should be done, so you are a full hero (free Banard, Elsa, and rid Baba Yaga) to get the full end. Testing shows this can be done by "n game" day 2.
I've already done some testing, and 35 appears to be the "magic number." It's the climb skill required to scale the wall of the town, or to grab the spore.
It's the sneak skill required to grab the kobold's key
I believe the singular most spectacular part of this game will be route planning. The biggest difficulty is getting the money for the undead unguent to perform Baba Yagas first task.
Additionally, it is possible to beat the game without ever getting in a single fight, although difficult
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