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Warp wrote:
I would find that kind of run to be equally preposterous as, for example, that one Minecraft speedrunning category where the runner alt-tabs to Windows, launches the task manager, kills the game from there, and then re-launches it. That's so far removed from actually playing the game that it isn't even funny.
You mean like pressing reset on the console to corrupt save data?
There are plenty of platforms outside of PC where interference outside the game's control results in gamebreaking glitches. Whether or not you personally find them to be "preposterous" is, again, irrelevant. That is for the community and ultimately the judges to decide.
Warp wrote:
There are already blanket rules forbidding all kinds of things (such as cheat codes, and abusing emulator bugs). I don't see why it should be so problematic in this case.
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Warp wrote:
Doomsday31415 wrote:
More to my point, as YaLTeR said, such a low frame rate wouldn't be done for the entire video; it would last only a handful of frames
And how exactly are you going to achieve that?
The methods that TAS's use in various games to affect the frame rate are not relevant here. All that matters is that there are situations where a TAS would optimally use a different frame rate.
Playing speed of modern games does not depend on the framerate. It doesn't matter if you are running at 120fps or at 12fps, the gameplay speed (eg. running speed, animations, etc.) will still be the same. It's just that with a lower framerate the game "jumps ahead" by bigger steps.
So with such a game a very low framerate would ostensibly not cost any time. It would just make the run a slideshow.
And in such a case the pros and cons would have to be weighed on a case-by-case basis.
I'm not saying that there should be a blanket rule allowing everything no matter what. I'm saying there shouldn't be a blanket rule forbidding everything no matter what.
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EZGames69 wrote:
Unless a game end glitch or ace discovered, there should be no real reason to skip all of the game content.
And this is the problem I have with a rule that disallows cheats. A major glitch that skips most of the game is acceptable and even encouraged, but an ingame code is not?
This is not a Game Genie modifying the game to do whatever it wants. This is something the developers left in, either intentionally or in some cases on accident.
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Let me preface this by saying I have no personal attachment to this game nor to the rules governing this site.
This site has two main categories: Vault and Moon/Star. Moon is for runs that are sufficiently entertaining, and Vault is for runs that complete a significant category as quickly as possible. So how does this run do on these fronts?
As far as entertainment goes, I can't give it anything but No. Half the time it's a load screen and the other half is zipping through terrain to complete whatever the objective happens to be. Most of the game is completely skipped here, leaving only a final boss that goes down in a matter of seconds.
That means Vault is the only possibility. Based on the RTA community, I would say this qualifies as a "significant category". It's also (obviously) as fast as is known to be possible. The only sticking point is the rule against cheats that everyone's bringing up, but exceptions have been made in the past.
Personally, I do not care for a rule that forbids using tools that the game itself gives you (cheat or otherwise). Obviously there would be a separate category for using cheats vs not, but you will not beat the game faster than this without literally hacking the game.
I understand the intent of discouraging easy modes to make a TAS more entertaining, but again, the Vault is about the fastest possible time, not entertainment. This is a legitimate category speedrun by dozens of people, so I don't see a good reason to keep it from Vault.
In accordance with the above, voting No for entertainment but Yes for Vault.
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Memory wrote:
feos wrote:
This sounds like changing gameplay speed should be banned from Vault.
I'd rather ban it from Moons as well. It's an artificial way of creating "entertainment" and may often result in sound effects going off at the wrong times etc.
Artificial or not, if it makes it more entertaining, why not allow it?
If people don't like it in certain cases, then it obviously will fail the "more entertaining" threshold.
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Memory wrote:
Is it really "More entertaining" if it's done at 1 billion FPS and the whole TAS is over in less than a second?
Of course not. I'm saying that as far as judging is concerned, using a different frame rate here than a previous version should only be considered in terms of entertainment value.
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Memory wrote:
feos wrote:
Would anyone argue that when gameplay speeds up as a whole as you disable vsync, that must also be allowed? This was already been disallowed for JPC-RR movies as mentioned in the OP.
That doesn't seem to me to be something that we should allow. If the gameplay as a whole speeds up, then it should in theory be the same TAS just sped up.
I agree that it's the same TAS but sped up. On the other hand, certain TAS's might be more entertaining/engaging at a higher frame rate.
A blanket ruling on this would hinder the cases where a higher frame rate allowed by the game itself would be better.
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Warp wrote:
Do you really think that anybody would be happy with a game being speedrun abusing glitches that are only possible if the game is running at 0.1 fps?
Imagine the run itself is an hour long. And it runs at 0.1 fps. Meaning that every still frame is shown for 10 seconds, after which the game jumps 10 seconds ahead in time, and so on. It would effectively be just an hour-long slide show of individual frames.
Let's add more to this hypothetical, and say that running the game at a normal 30 or 60 fps would make the run 1 hour 1 minute long. In other words, running the game at 0.1 fps only saves one minute from an hour-long speedrun.
Would anybody watch such a thing? Would it even make any sense?
First off, the vault isn't about entertainment. It's about the fastest time.
More to my point, as YaLTeR said, such a low frame rate wouldn't be done for the entire video; it would last only a handful of frames by nature of the fact every frame costs so much time.
So your hypothetical is a scenario that doesn't exist in reality, and even if it did for some game in the future, that's what the vault is for.
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Warp wrote:
Warp wrote:
Should the run be allowed to run the game at 10FPS for the sake of being able to use that glitch?
In fact, to emphasize my point, let's not just limit this hypothetical to 10 fps. (After all, a game running at 10 fps is not optimal, but still somewhat watchable.) Let's say that a glitch becomes possible if the game runs at 1 fps. Or 0.1 fps. One frame every 10 seconds.
Needless to say, that would become quite unwatchable. Should it be allowed?
If it's the fastest way to do something, it would have a place in the vault.
And in your hypothetical 0.1 FPS situation, it couldn't last for very long or else it wouldn't be the fastest way anymore.
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Warp wrote:
What happens when some glitch or skip is tied to a particular (or maximum/minimum) framerate? For example, assume that some kind of glitch is only possible when the game runs at 10FPS or less. Should the run be allowed to run the game at 10FPS for the sake of being able to use that glitch? Should the run be allowed to change the framerate mid-run in order to get the glitch?
I'd say this is no different than changing the battle speed in a Final Fantasy game or the text speed in a Pokemon game. It's an option the game provides, so it should be usable.
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Is the file size of a (for example) 1,000,000 fps bk2 file significant enough that it's a concern?
I would think that the encoding can be done at whatever frame rate is viewable, dropping non-viewable frames as needed. If you really want to see what it looks like on each frame, there's still the bk2 file.
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Although the remove glitch itself is interesting, seeing it done over a dozen times (frequently with the exact same setup due to soft resetting the RNG) got old very quickly. As such, I voted Meh.
I think the clear from level 20 contains almost everything interesting about what this run does for a fraction of the time (and without the repetitiveness).
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This is what happens when the first TAS I did happened to have boards in it... whoops.
After reading all the documentation and finding what it's supposed to mean in the bkm section (NOT the bk2 section), I think the field should just be blank...
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So this game can probably be beaten in an hour? Crazy.
Is the nature of the crash at Giygas if you don't do the prerequisites known? Obviously it's known that if you do XYZ, the crash doesn't happen, but perhaps there's a faster way?
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So the save file can be loaded, but the situation it loads you into causes the game to crash.
Does the save file have the postgame flags set? That is, is the cave in Cerulean unlocked?
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TiKevin83 wrote:
current RTA runs of Yellow NSC result in unplayable save files.
To clarify, is the save file unplayable because it puts the player in a situation they cannot complete certain (or any) objectives from, or because it is corrupted and cannot be loaded period? If it's the latter, I would similarly question their validity.
Even ignoring the definition of completion, it doesn't seem right to call the run "no save corruption" when the save is in fact very corrupted afterward. Just my two cents.
Despite the potential technical fouls, I want to say I did think this was an interesting take on ACE without corrupting the save to do it.
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This thread is relevant, since it contains much discussion about what should and shouldn't be considered completion:
http://tasvideos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=13927
Personally, I think completion should require valid postgame save data for games that would normally create such data. It shouldn't necessarily be possible to have that specific save data through "normal" means, but it should very clearly be loadable and have any and all postgame flags set.
That's my opinion, and I can imagine this could turn into another discussion, but at most I would say this would go in a "glitched" branch.
Still entertaining to see all the ACE, though!
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PikachuMan wrote:
The lag in Hot Rope Jump in BizHawk (uses the Mupen64Plus core) is probably related to accuracy. This minigame runs at 30fps while the majority of it ran at 60fps. Quite impressive for an N64 game, and that's without the Expansion Pak even.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure everything in the original Mario Party runs at 30 fps...
Either way, you're probably right that BizHawk emulates the lag more accurately, and HRJ is very laggy.
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To answer some of my own questions...
- Yes, they're not compatible
- Still don't know
- Pressing start on a controller is the hotkey for fast forward. This is why it doesn't speed it up when the TAS does it
- The only RNG I've found prior to the first minigame is on the main menu (the movement of the butterflies?), but it's very slow to use for manipulation
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Hey guys, I recently saw Senshin's Minigame Island TAS, and thought it could be improved on in a variety of locations. However, I haven't done a TAS before, so this is all very new to me. I have a bunch of questions:
- Senshin's submission appears to be an m64, which isn't directly compatible with Bizhawk. Conversion didn't work either, so do I have no choice but to play it in mugen to compare frames?
- Senshin's judging references two prior TAS's, but there's barely any information on them. I found DennisBalow's on youtube, and a couple minigames from Rattleman's on this thread, but that's it. Am I missing something?
- When the splash screens display at the beginning, you can press start to make them go faster. However, no matter how much I press start using tasstudio, they will not be skipped. Any idea why?
- Is there any way to manipulate the RNG prior to the first minigame? I've tried delaying frames and choosing other characters without success. Almost a second is up for grabs if the 10-second block is closest to the player...
Thanks!
