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Here was also an interesting, yet completely useless thing I found at some point: Link to video What's happening: the apple I attached to a skull that flies underneath the elevator explodes at just the right time. An exploding apple has an extended hitbox which is larger than the unexploded apple and is actually enough to reach Ronald's hitbox. If timed perfectly the apple expanding can pull ronald off the elevator object that glues ronald to it. Because the elevator requires you to have 0 x velocity in order to trigger it, suddenly now ronald gets a boost applied by the apple after it's triggered. That's why ronald moves to the right. Again, nothing happens as the elevator object is still going on it's path and it reaching the top of the screen is actually what triggers the transition (to my knowledge anyway).
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The funny thing is I watched most of the speedruns and youtube TASes on like day 1 of the competition to get an idea of the game. And for some odd reason I never took note of the wrong warps that occurred. Instead we just dove (dived?) head first into making a pioneer movie and learning the ins and outs of the game. It wasn't until there were about 2 weeks of competition left that we were kind of out of ideas, so I just decided on a whim to rewatch the speedruns. I about spit my drink out when I first saw the stage 9 warp and wondered how in the heck that slipped our attention. Needless to say that would have been embarrassing submitting a file that didn't have any warps in it! Anyways, nice encode Mothrayas, and it looks like team 7 had a faster stage 12 overall based on that movie.
Current thoughts: Hachiemon (J) for GBA.
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The game is actually more sync friendly than you might think, providing you end a stage with the same subpixel and same apple boost. The exceptions to this rule are usually stage 4 and stage 9, because some of the enemies used in stage 9 are based on some global timer for when they move or something. So those stages have to be redone manually probably. The other exception is of course lag, which is usually just fixed by adding or deleting frames.
Current thoughts: Hachiemon (J) for GBA.
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I'll just state some further ideas I had about improving our file, but I have no proof for any of it (except the stage 7 boss trick). Of course as was already stated, if the stage 7 boss is killed during it's head transition it flies off the top of the screen almost instantly. I did take a screenshot of the 1 frame the boss's dead hitbox actually still existed before it flew off screen though: Anyway, with that being said almost any small improvement before stage 7 would probably make this trick possible. Which means I come to my other idea. I was wondering if it were somehow possible to get those throws to land on the garbage boss tiles in stage 4 and still have ronald land on the boss's existing mouth instead of falling all the way to the floor. It seems we miss a phase of boss tiles existing while we're trying to get back in position. Again, no proof just theories. Also, I'm pretty sure some of the other submissions had a better Hamburglar fight near the end of the game: attacking the ground so that the apple's timer runs out sooner than it would by attacking him directly at the start. I didn't actually compare times, just observations. In fact I believe stage 1 can even be improved in theory. In my head, we should have less frames with no apple boost than we do and also we should be flying directly into the boss to get as early hit as possible in. I don't know if any setup would allow for that; but it makes sense in my head. That's about all I have for the moment, I might update this post if anything else comes to mind.
Current thoughts: Hachiemon (J) for GBA.
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There was one trick I wanted to include in the run but didn't ultimately make it, due to wanting to get the rest of the run finished in time or just due to being burned out a bit on the game. The stage 7 boss is on a global timer that determines when it's head will extend upwards. I forget what exactly the timer was, but basically if it all lines up perfectly the boss could receive the final hit while it's head is in transition. This causes the boss's dead sprite to shoot off the top of the screen instantly meaning the stage ends. Our file just happened to line up to where we were literally a few frames shy of being able to get it. If our file was improved by even a slight bit anywhere before that point, it should be possible. Just wanted to point out this in case anyone didn't know the trick existed.
Current thoughts: Hachiemon (J) for GBA.
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I had thought about hosting something like that a while back. I was going to start a "year long" TAS competition that did 1 level per week. It just so happened the game I had in mind had around 51 levels or something like that, so it kinda fit. But I wasn't sure if anyone was interested, and I didn't really inspect the game further to make sure the levels were individualized. They are all played in order as far as I know. I don't know if I would ever host it in the future, but it all made perfect sense in my head. As far as rules, I wasn't so sure. Something like: the winner of each week will have their name added to the authors list at the end of the contest. And each week we took the winner from last week, and compiled the next level on top of that base TAS, all the way until the final week where we'd have a complete TAS. My only concern was that people wouldn't be interested in the game, or there might be weeks with no submissions, meaning the competition wouldn't progress. Another thing to note is that there might be discoveries late in the game that would improve earlier stages, meaning the entire run would have to be revised, or at least noted for future improvements should the run be submitted as is. These are reasons why I never did it.
Current thoughts: Hachiemon (J) for GBA.
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Time for Linux users to run BizHawk through their Windows emulators then.
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FatRatKnight wrote:
I'll join. As the old team is fine.
Great, so then this should solidify us as a 3-player team: myself, FatRatKnight, and pirate_sephiroth. This of course leaves a 4th spot open for now.
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pirate_sephiroth wrote:
Well I don't mind winning another one.
I second this notion. Also, if FatRatKnight were willing to sign up again, I vote to bring back the winning team. If not, I guess just throw me into the player pool.
Current thoughts: Hachiemon (J) for GBA.
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Well I wasn't going to improve the file with the known improvement that I mentioned of stage 3-1. But I started fiddling with the earlier stages and right away I found around 6 frames of improvement. I don't expect any major changes, but I'm going to at least update the file with these and see how it goes. Will keep it updated as I find things, and hopefully it shouldn't take me too long to finish, if things go smoothly. Update #1 Finished World 1 52 67 frames faster. This world was finished fast because none of the enemies are RNG based, so the levels sync up nicely. That's not going to be the case with World 3. I wasn't expecting to find this much improvement to the first world, so I'm definitely going to update with a few file, hopefully within a couple of days. Update #2 Finished World 2. Total savings is 125 so far. Update #3 So, just entered the world 3 boss fight at 199 frames saved. Now the main annoyance of this run: The boss's arms can move in different patterns, despite having the same exact input. I still haven't quite determined what this is based off of, as improving the previous level multiple times still yields the same outcome. It's different from the time I fought him in the file above, as many of my shots miss his arms immediately. Now I don't think it will be too much time difference if I adjust all of my shots, but it would really benefit from knowing how to manipulate him if possible. I assume there's some large frame rule that changes his actions every set number of frames. I don't have anything to base this on, but it's the only way I can explain it. Update #4 Worked out the world 3 boss, total time saved is 218. I actually completed the boss even faster this time by better positioning despite the different pattern. The only thing that really matters is his right arm, it needs to die as close to the central body as possible so that I can immediately fire onto it. Hopefully I'll be done with the last world by tomorrow. Final update: Finished. Here it is, 301 frames faster: http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/49537548110145992
Current thoughts: Hachiemon (J) for GBA.
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World 3 (now without excess desktop sounds....): Link to video Now doing world 4 which will be super annoying without a script.
Current thoughts: Hachiemon (J) for GBA.
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Here's what I have for world 2 at the moment. Perhaps there's room to manipulate the enemies a bit better. The route is pretty much set though. Total savings after this update over the old movie is 1192 frames so far. Not bad, hoping to double it by the end, maybe? Depends if there are transformation powerups still left to discover. New powerup usage in a couple of stages, because I didn't know about them before. In 2-4 it's not possible to keep the powerup because it forces you through a space where you have to duck. And you can't duck with the powerup, so goodbye to it unfortunately. Did find a new way to use that enemy to skip some stuff though. It's probably hard to tell with the jumbled graphics. Anyway, cheap encode: Link to video Like I said: this is probably not the final version. There are a few things that I want to look at, including enemy RNG, and a few nuances including killing certain enemies faster and lag reduction. Or if anyone out there possibly spots something.
Current thoughts: Hachiemon (J) for GBA.
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You're referring to the ones that appear in world 3? I actually didn't know that, but in which instance does it save time? It will be interesting to test when I get to that point. Also, I previously said that every level will be jumbled graphics because of the new ledge trick. However world 2 and 3 look like they have overhanging ledges, and you can't do the trick if the cliff is only one tile for some reason. Turns out you do get the slightest advantage downwards by doing it on one tile ledges, but it's usually never worth the loss in horizontal distance from just running right. May still be useful at some weird instance where we only need to go down though. So world 2 and 3 may be somewhat in tact unless something else is found. I'm wanting to look at the rocket and helicopter transformations a bit more. Edit: I found a pretty decent skip in 2-2, but it requires slowing down a lot to lure the enemy in place. Skips more than enough to make up for it though. Link to video But further inspection upon doing this, it took me to an area where there is apparently a rocket transformation. I did not know this was here and it's making me rethink the whole game. The best possible way to optimize strategies would be to locate where every single transformation powerup is; I'm sure there are some in places I don't know about. Maps of the levels would also be useful probably. Edit again (sorry): Found a pretty interesting way of grabbing the rocket powerup fast. It turns out if have the x-position pixel when you do the ledge trick, you zip back up to the top when you press right. I didn't think it would have a use, but lo and behold. Link to video
Current thoughts: Hachiemon (J) for GBA.
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So thanks to ThunderAxe31 for providing a nice terrain script, I was able to complete world 1 much faster. The frame total is 191 frames over the published run, but like I said before I lost quite a bit at the start from emulator differences, so it's actually around 250 or so. Among the cliff glitch, there were some new tested routes and new places for damage abuse. I'll probably skim over it again, because there were a few places that I feel didn't quite go as planned, but this is what it will ultimately look like (unless some other trick is found): Crap quality encode, because I never do them: Link to video And here's the bizhawk file if you want to watch it with the terrain script: http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/49056146176197175
Current thoughts: Hachiemon (J) for GBA.
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Well I wanted to get back to this game because I was pretty sure it could be improved, especially now that we have TAStudio, which I didn't have back then. After a few minutes of experimenting in the first stage I found a small timesaving "glitch" that screws up the graphics akin to the world 4 stage glitches in the published run. This occurs anywhere there's a right-side solid cliff. As soon as you're about to fall over the edge, press left for one frame and then press nothing for one frame. The game somehow puts you in the ledge (I think) and this game does not zip you out of walls if you are inside them, instead it instantly teleports you to the nearest safe location it can find. In these instances that happens to be as far down until there's another ledge. This is of course what skews the graphics. The only concern is that it DOES skew the graphics, and this DOES save time because this means less time in the air (which is very slow when you're falling). So every stage will be nothing but offset and garbled graphics, even though the overall product will be faster. Here's an example test run of the first 2 levels using the glitch (it's still like 20-30 frames slower than the published run because emulator differences): http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/48946969495222205 [edit]: So this is where a terrain script would come in real handy. I'm in stage 1-4 and doing the trick on this ledge after taking damage also renders tinhead invisible for some reason. I don't have any idea where I'm at relative to the level or where tinhead is. I think in this part I shouldn't use the trick, but a terrain viewer would really help as I'm just now doing it based off of where everything is in the old movie. I'm also trying to figure out why it only works on right cliffs and not left cliffs.
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Just wanted to make a screenshot suggestion that involves intense high-level gameplay:
Current thoughts: Hachiemon (J) for GBA.
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Challenger wrote:
Also, what are the "exclusive" glitches on the SNES version?
Well first off, the game is buggier in general. There's a point in the speedrun of the game (listed at speedrun.com) where you can just jump up through the slope, without a drill. But other than that, in the SNES version if you take damage near a wall you get embedded slightly into the wall, and even clip through a floor if it's thin enough. I think this can even be done from below if the ceiling is also thin. There's also a ladder glitch in the SNES version where if you hang on to the very bottom position of a hanging ladder and go down instead of up, you can climb on "nothing" as far down until you hit a slide or a spike. You ignore all other collisions with walls and such. It hasn't really been tested whether either of these could save additional time compared to genesis version, but personally I don't care. Most of the new wall zips eliminate any possible uses for them anyway. People will disagree but I prefer the sounds and music of the Genesis version more, and the fact that it has less bugs made it more intriguing to try to find flaws in the design.
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Well I figured out something that may be good or bad... You can wedge yourself into any wall whether there's a ledge or not by repeated pressing L+C or R+C at the same frame after jumping next to a wall. This can already be used to skip a large chunk of bell castle 2, as seen here: http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/48056152559379330 The problem with this is that it may make certain levels become boring. I'm looking at Dr Dis Industries 2.. Which will certainly just become Wedging yourself into the wall at the very start of the stage and then falling to the boss room. The wedging will probably take.. anywhere from 800-1000 frames to execute, but will skip the entire level, including the miniboss for this stage. I guess it just comes down to whether you think that's more entertaining or not.. It's obviously faster.
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Yeah my knowledge of the zips is basically what you just posted. We've just generally been chatting in discord about them as to not flood the forums here, but we've pretty much exhausted every opportunity up to disco fever 3 at the moment. We did discover a few throughout the fort redstar levels, which you could see from our latest WIP uploaded by arkiandruski: http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/48030105600892210 That is... if you didn't refuse to use bizhawk :P Anyway, the one thing that's been bugging me lately is the flame powerup in Dr Dis Industries 1. I did some testing and to me it seemed like we were literally 2 pixels away from being able to drill up there off of the moving platform below.. We also can't land in the wall because it is slightly too high... The point of this is that it insta kills the miniboss, but currently the route to get to it would take too long as opposed to just killing the boss normally. As far as the cannon in FR3 I can honestly say I never tested it. In my mind using the cannon is super slow so I just assume it's slower... Probably should be tested though.
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Added your improvement and a couple of other zips I found, improving the level by a bit. http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/47998694164282014 http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/48000058716844575 found a new route that involves us clipping through another slope.. 36 frames at the moment, can probably be optimized more
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Aha, I dunno why no one ever thought of that before. I'm currently working on redoing a small part of of this stage, so this is perfect timing
Current thoughts: Hachiemon (J) for GBA.
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Current thoughts: Hachiemon (J) for GBA.
Editor, Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Experienced player (883)
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Sorry for being such a newb, I can't open that bk2 for some reason. Do I need your savestate file?
Current thoughts: Hachiemon (J) for GBA.
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Posting here just for reference and stuff. Found some locations for some zips and those maps r57shell posted are awesome for finding places to test it. Fort redstar 3 has 3 locations the zip can be used, and only one of them may actually save time, if very little. Here's an example of these zips: Link to video Link to video
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Wow those maps could be really useful, it's nice to see where everything is in context to each other. I feel like for it to really be of use, we need to find some sort of big glitch or trick, because there are a few stages where the exit to the level is very close to a midpoint of the level. This version of the game seems to have much better programming than the SNES version however, but to me I prefer it that way. It makes it more rewarding when you actually do find a new trick. Okay, so looking at the map for disco fever 3, I now see why we're able to get into that gap, and not able to do it with the cymbals. With this particular horn, there is the tiniest gap that's not present in any of the cymbals. [edit]: I've already found several small improvements that were inspired by taking a look at these maps, so they are actually coming in handy.
Current thoughts: Hachiemon (J) for GBA.
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