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Moi je serais d'un autre avis concernant l'émulateur à utiliser pour ce TAS.
Je dis go BizHawk. Explication...
D'abord, je ne connais pas bien les différences entre BizHawk et Gens, mais je suis prêt à parier que le premier est plus "accurate" (plus fidèle à la machine, quoi). Pour être sûr, vaut mieux demander à un expert.
Ensuite (en considérant que je ne me trompe pas sur le 1er point), Bizhawk est recommandé, donc par principe c'est toujours mieux de le choisir, même si tu pourrais avoir un meilleur temps sur Gens.
De plus, là c'est ce que j'appelle un cas idéal pour faire passer un jeu d'un vieil émulateur à un plus récent en améliorant un TAS, parce que malgré le lag en plus (les chargements plus longs apparemment) tu arrives quand même à avoir un meilleur temps total.
Ça aurait pu ne pas être le cas, même avec un TAS mieux fait que l'ancien, et là il aurait fallu aller compter les frames de lag vs frames de "gameplay" pour trancher et désigner lequel de l'ancien ou du nouveau TAS est le plus optimisé.
...Enfin faut voir, remarque. T'as noté des passages qui sont plus longs sur BizHawk, mais peut-être qu'il existe aussi des moments où tu gagnes du temps grâce à l'émulateur. Les différences dans l'émulation pourraient aller dans les deux sens en terme de temps gagné.
Bref, je vote BizHawk. Mais si tu peux, essaie de bien vérifier où des frames sont gagnées ou perdues à cause de la différence d'émulation. Même si c'est juste par curiosité. Comme j'ai dit, même si le nouvel émulateur te défavorise au niveau des frames de lag, vu que t'as quand même réussi à battre l'ancien TAS c'est à mon avis l'occasion parfaite pour faire passer le jeu sur une plateforme plus récente, et en théorie plus fidèle à la console.
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It was more entertaining than I expected (because of the scrolling and stuff), you did great with this movie. Same thing on the technical level, good job with the RNG, 3rd boss pattern, zips, etc...
You've won another YES vote :)
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Warp wrote:
feos wrote:
Do you mean that SGDQ should be considered, or that the overall TAS block WOW degree could be loosed?
I don't really understand your question.
Anyway, it's just that I was thinking about an alternative that wouldn't necessarily require as much time and resources for the people making it all happen. This showcase was excellent, but as dwangoAC has said, it took a ginormous amount of time, work and even money.
I think it ought to be possible to be a bit more conservative, while still keeping the awe factor of the TAS block pretty high. It wouldn't also hurt to show actual TASes (running on a real console), rather than demonstrations. I think that showing an existing TAS that's impressive (eg. a glitchfest), with someone explaining what's happening on screen, would be good.
After all, the event is "games done quick", so shouldn't we be showing games being completed quickly?
Just to specify one thing that's been said already. I don't think having the TAS running on a console is the only way to show good runs. I don't see any problem with using an emulator running on a computer (and it would allow for any TAS to be shown).
After all, even some speedruns at AGDQ are done on emulators, Symphony of the Night for example, was done on emulator (on console, but on an emulator provided alongside the game when purchasing it). I'm not 100% sure about this one in fact, but it's highly likely (I don't think they completely ported the game). At least it's true for many "virtual console" games, and it's usually ok for the speedrunners to play on these versions.
Running games on the original hardware is obviously a plus and demonstrates that there is no "cheating" involved; it also makes for something interesting technically... But I don't think it's absolutely necessary.
Just having an explanation about how we make a TAS and then showing some runs is already good enough in my opinion.
(all that just to say that the part about running them on a real console is not mandatory in my opinion, yeah I'm nitpicking ^^)
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Asdrien wrote:
Pour la partie reverse engineering, j'ai un peux mis le projet de coté : sa prends beaucoup de temps; bien plus que je ne le pensais.
Sinon voici une première version de mon TAS que je qualifierai plus comme un WIP (c'est encore optimisable).
-vidéo-
On peut dire aussi "test run", vu qu'en plus le jeu est fait en entier.
En tout cas, si c'est ton premier TAS, c'est déjà très encourageant, presque impressionnant.
On voit beaucoup d'actions très précises et techniques typiques pour gagner du temps, même si c'est juste pour un gain de quelques frames. Comme le damage boost n'a pas l'air viable pour simplement gagner du terrain horizontalement (à cause du temps de récupération ensuite), tu l'as utilisé là où ça sert, pour toucher la fin des niveaux, par exemple.
Après oui, vu que c'est pas la version finale, on peut voir (ou en tout cas supposer après un visionnage en temps réel) des petits défauts, je dirais au niveau de quelques mouvements comme des changements de direction, à première vue, mais sans en être sûr.
Mais le truc important c'est que ces apparentes erreurs sont rares vu la longueur du TAS, et surtout, elles sont éclipsées par la fréquence des "bons passages", ceux où on se dit "ah, pas mal, bien joué là!".
Bref, si tout est bien optimisé pour la version finale, ça s'annonce bien bon.
Je parle de l'aspect technique, parce que niveau "entertainment", c'est difficile de juger. Avis perso: moon tier mais proche du vault, histoire de pas donner de valeurs précises ^^. Enfin là c'est à 100% dépendant du jeu lui-même.
Hum, peut-être qu'en essayant d'éviter au max de ramasser des disques en surplus à cause du bruitage... Ou d'en jouer d'une façon ou d'une autre, mais je vois pas comment sans perdre de temps.
Enfin voilà, continue, t'es doué :)
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Fortranm wrote:
scrimpeh wrote:
In my opinion, Enemy/AI manipulation becomes luck manipulation when entropy gets involved, i.e. there is no visible correlation between what the player does and how the enemy reacts. Especially, without TAS tools, an unassisted runner should not be able to reliably get a desired outcome in those cases.
However, games in which you can easily predict an AI's behaviour should not be considered luck manipulation. In the example I used, the enemy's spawning Y position is directly tied to the player's Y position. No entropy involved at all.
I clearly remember I saw the Medusa trick shown in the GIF in a CV1 hardmode RTA; this case is an good example that the AI's behavior is so predictable that the manipulation can even be done in a RTA.
In fact, for that specific medusa head, if you want to save time, it's more important to manipulate its x spawning position compared to its y position. In other words, you want to make it appear while keeping the screen (camera) as far to the left as possible, so that it spawns closer to where you'll want to jump on it; that's because that enemy appears at the edge of the screen, and it's only time-based.
I think the best example from Castlevania is the hunchbacks. They are extremely easy to manipulate even in real time: if you look at them and they aren't too far away, they do a high jump, otherwise they jump lower and faster.
Other enemies are more tricky, like the skeletons, the bone dragons and the bosses. Their behavior can't completely be predicted in real time, if at all, sometimes. Hard to tell how many bones a skeleton will throw (it can be 0), for example, but any good player knows at least that they tend to step back when you approach.
So, to get back on topic with this, my opinion is that we can talk about luck manipulation if it's something that is truly random; and when I say random, my definition is "something that can't be predicted or manipulated by the player in real time".
Ah, now that I've said that, I realize that there are still blurry lines with that notion.
I'll take The Tower of Druaga on NES as an example and hope my memory doesn't fail me...
We don't have a TAS of this game on the site right now, don't bother searching for it ^^.
When you launch the game then press start at the title screen, you're set on the first floor where most of the things are randomly placed (enemies, key, door), but you'll always have the same starting position.
Now if you launch the game, then reset at the title screen, then press start, you'll start somewhere else on the floor, but this "somewhere else" is always the same if you hit reset only once after booting the game for the first time.
For me, it's a case of luck manipulation that can be done in real time, but it really looks like RNG manipulation (the "impossible to predict" kind), even if it isn't.
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Hitboxes, collision detection and physics are just illusions made real by our willingness to believe in them. Thanks for providing a good proof of that.
Voting yes of course ^^.
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Maybe it's time to stop using the term "ACE".
We can just replace it with "Masterjun".
Anyway, nice to see another great masterjuning of a really good game.
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Tub wrote:
There's also a universe where - right at the beginning of every boss fight - ionizing radiation strikes and changes the memory cell containing the bosses' HP value to 0. Let's allow gameshark codes!
No no no, using gameshark codes is clearly cheating, but ionizing radiations can happen naturally.
We should allow ionizing radiations to be implemented in the inputs part of movie files, and of course create a tag and category for runs that use it, to keep things fair ^^.
It would look like that in the end:
SNES Super Metroid (JPN/USA) "100%, IR" in 00:00.016 by Alpha&Omega.
With the tag:
-uses ionizing radiations to save time
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SonicBoom737 wrote:
http://youtu.be/T7tkSMzpUns
That's the real Amy tas strat, I've known about it for a long time, just haven't got round to properly testing what can be achieved with tas, I dare say that my time can go way lower, however this stage is really weird, as sometimes on that platform you can just go flying off and fall to your death, rather than continuing to run on the invisible floor, not sure why this happens sometimes.
Also I found this zip as Amy, dunno if it's useful (I doubt it with amy), if it could be done with tails or knux, then maybe you could jump out of the end wall and climb/fly up, as this zip practically skips the entire stage, as the clip occurs relatively close to the start.
http://youtu.be/SjlJrLuwFbE
I just did a more optimized version of that new Amy route, the final time is 33:58, quite nice :P
Link to video
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Perso j'ai jamais essayé de TASer à la manette, mais je pense que j'aurais cherché un moyen de caler le frame advance dessus, ainsi que les load et save state (et aussi de quoi changer de slot, ça fait pas mal de boutons en plus ^^).
Ou alors la grosse bidouille: utiliser les pieds pour activer des pédales frame advance, save, load, etc... :P
En tout cas, bonne continuation pour ton TAS!
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I learned what TASes were and more or less how they were made thanks to 88mph. From there, I really liked watching each episode, learning some basic stuff, and watching good runs at the same time ^^.
But, it took me a while to really ask myself: "hum, why not play with a TASing emulator and try to do something with it?". Then I started with Castlevania; I was in the middle of a test run in the "minimalist, pacifist" category (because that category allowed me to learn how to TAS more easily at first, removing the need to manage items, for example) when I decided to join this site to get some feedback and also bring a small contribution to the game resources page for Castlevania. I then finished that test run and shortly after made the "real" version of that run. It was before the tier system and I wasn't expecting to have my first TAS published so soon. I guess the game + weird category (yo scrimpy ^^) was a lucky combination.
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I liked it ^^.
Nice glitches, some quite obvious like getting through stuff, and others more "hidden" like the ISG.
I think I remember you said somewhere that you didn't like doing the "waiting" parts in a TAS (I hope I remember right), but you did great on the stampede level.
The speed at which you killed the hyenas near the end was interesting too.
Well done and an easy yes vote.
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And one more yes vote from me, really well done.
And for the screenshot, what about one frame in the gravitron when the timer says 17:33? It would tell viewers that this run shows everything, including the gravitron, and have the time of the movie in it (just for fun)... But there are many screenshot worthy phases in fact.
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Thevlackdemonn2294 wrote:
Update: I think this is more useful with than amy because the amy strats used in the TAS are faster than this new strats.
I finally took the time to test this new route myself in a "TAS environment" and I can confirm it is slower that way. I reached the moving pillar's position (which was on the way, the one at around 0:48 in your video) something like 4 to 5 seconds later than with the other route.
Ok, I didn't fully optimize some parts, mainly starting to run after being dropped by the falling platform, but I highly doubt such small sloppiness costs more than 4 seconds ^^.
There is also the fact that we'd likely have to manipulate that pillar to be out of the way, which would cost time at the beginning.
Anyway, good job for your world record time and discoveries, and thanks for helping in improving the Amy TAS ;).
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I don't usually take the time to watch movies of Pokémon games or RPG in general... But this gen is the one I'm the most familiar with, I also saw you stream some of your work on this one and it's greatly shortened by the glitch.
What I find interesting is that the run starts with a "normal" trainer (with extreme luck due to the TASing, and all the planning), then at some point it goes crazy. The trainer has had enough with all those battles, flies to the end then storms the elite 4 throwing bad eggs at everyone who wants a fight ^^.
And with more content (this video is included inside, too) we have a french TASing guide made by STBM: http://tasvideos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=13224
In french:
gamerretro2, va lire ce topic: http://tasvideos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=13224En entier, vidéos comprises. (bon ok pour commencer, la partie sur l'encodage n'est pas obligatoire...)
C'est un guide qui couvre assez bien ce qu'est un TAS et comment on fait. Beaucoup de concepts de base importants comme l'optimisation, le frame advance et autres outils et techniques...
En bref, ça te donnera des bonnes infos sur le concept du TASing et les moyens employés. Ensuite il faut de la patience, le souci du détail (une frame est une frame, et chacune compte), une bonne connaissance du jeu et... L'envie de faire du TAS, mais ça on voit que tu l'as déjà :P
Le souci c'est que tu fais tes runs bien trop vite, donc avec plein d'erreurs, et en plus tu les soumets les unes après les autres telles quelles; il y a de quoi exaspérer un paquet de membres du site, autant de gens qui ne risquent pas de vouloir t'aider quand tu feras du TAS plus sérieusement.
