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I'm going to redo World 2 because Genisto's amazing run (which doesn't go for top speed) kicks my ass in speed in several parts of the first two levels. Much to learn, I have, says Yoda.
Edit: Also, does anyone have any tips on duck-jumping through walls besides "fail over and over"? (my current strategy, hehe)
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Cool, thanks Kyrsimys! One less thing to test.
Bag of Magic Food wrote:
Why not?
Even in extreme cases of hammer brother manipuation such as World 2 here, I spent < 50 frames delaying level completion and dying (in total for all of World 2). Using a musicbox takes somewhere around 25-35 frames as well, but saves a minimum of ~40 frames (the length of one hammer brother movement). After seeing what was required to get these hammer brothers to do what I needed, I'm confident that manipulating them into the right spots will not benefit enough from an extra music box that it will save the time required to get it.
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Bag: It is faster to grab the wand higher - I entered World 2 eight frames faster when I was able to jump with super speed.
karlake: Thanks!
Everyone: I haven't forgotten about this run! Worked on most of World 2 tonight. Find it here, or on previous links, or in my signature.
Things I have tested:
It's about 3 seconds faster to die again on the hammer brother instead of getting the music box from him. I don't anticipated 3 seconds saved from an extra music box.
The frames I die on are the earliest frames available to get the hammer brothers to do what they need to do.
Things I haven't tested:
If it's faster to not lose firepower in 2-F.
If it's possible to glitch through the wall on the lower level to get to Boom-Boom. (didn't think of it until after passing the level) Does anyone know if this is possible?
Hit me with any questions, etc.
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Arne_the_great wrote:
If you have any tactics or anything that you think can improve please tell me.
It was mentioned somewhere that you don't need to enter the room with Winky in Bouncy Bonanza to get 101%, so in case you weren't aware, that can save you some time. The run looks good so far, by the way.
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The gold torizo takes around 45 hits with charged ice/wave/spazer, so that is a no go. However, Super Missles are more effective than I thought. He can be hit with 3 out of 4, but more importantly, there are "states" that he can be hit freely without catching the missles, such as when he throws out those balls that can be hit for energy and weapons.
Left to test:
How fast to refill Super Missles?
How fast can Ridley be killed without Space Jump and Plasma Beam?
How quickly can the lava-lowering room be done without Space Jump?
For Ridley first to be faster, the time difference from these must be less than the amount of time it takes to run through the room in Norfair before the Ice Beam and back - which honestly is not very long, especially because you can Mockball back through the gates when going right.
By doing stuff in the more traditional order, there will be 40-45 Super Missles available for the Gold Torizo fight, AND the plasma beam. Both could be used to save more time.
GW, is the run you are posting going to be a 100% run or any%? (or just for fun with no real goal hehe)
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High quality run of a great game. Nice sequence break at the beginning, excellent use of weapon planning, using souls, items, and most importantly, GREAT luck manipulation throughout. Emphatic yes vote.
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I found this, as Truncated guessed, buried in one of the FAQs.
FAQ wrote:
Boss battle: Golden Torizo
Hit points: 13500
Charged Plasma/Ice/Wave: 900
Super missiles: 600
Missiles: None
If the plasma beam isn't an option, it doesn't help that the boss will catch some of the super missles. Since at least 23 must contact him to win, and he will probably catch at least every third one (I haven't tested how many can be shot while one is caught and thrown back), that bumps the number up to around 35, and the maximum obtained at that point if Maridia is delayed is only 30. Plus, unless there is a good way to get these back quickly, it will slow down the Ridley battle. It's seeming doubtful to me at this point but fighting the Gold Torizo without Plasma needs to be tested, so I'll do that soon.
Graveworm, that would be awesome if you found a way to the Spring Ball; it would bypass this entire dilemma as well. If you do happen to get in touch with Michael, could you also ask him what his "platform yank" trick was? It was the only one he listed that he didn't get to in his WIP (I think), and I have no idea what it could be referring to.
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To quote my friend [edited for vulgarity reduction]:
"Anyone who gets offended when I tell them Merry Christmas can [fellate me]. I mean, if someone told me Happy Hannukah, I'm not going to say F%$@ YOUR HANNUKAH! I'm going to say Merry Christmas!"
So, to all, Merry Christmas!
I got Metroid Zero Mission!!
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Graveworm: Ridley before Draygon is very close. It saves a bit of time getting the ice beam later (unless a new way is found to get the Spring Ball (which I doubt, it was crazy to get a second way (third set of parenthesis))), but there are a few rooms in Deep Norfair that will suffer from the lack of Space Jump - the big filling lava room comes to mind.
Hmm...and also the Plasma Beam. Don't you need the Plasma beam to defeat the Gold Torizo(?) (the bird statue before getting screw attack) in a sane amount of time? If that makes a large difference then this may not need testing after all.
Also, I don't know too many names of specific areas of the game (Gauntlet) or enemy names (worm boss, statue boss, etc) so I tend to make up my own. So, if anyone doesn't know what my goofy names are, or has a better name, please let me know, as it will probably make communication about the route easier.
If you do get a chance to type up your route, that would be cool. Chances are that neither of us have the optimal path for every part, rather a combination of our (and others') ideas.
Fabian, this too was a major player in my interest in TASing. That probably explains why we worked well together on SDW! This and Sonic 1 were what I came to the forums for as a lurker.
Angerfist, thanks! I seem to select games that no one in their right mind would do otherwise :)
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Here is what I have accomplished!
My route (subject to massive revision)
When I actually go to start this project, I'll probably make a seperate topic (or continue MF's 100% topic). But I am enjoying working out this route currently, and any pointers or suggestions are welcome.
The main question I have now (taken from that page):
Michael Flatley did not get the Ice Beam. I have no idea what he was planning to do. Is there another way to get the Spring Ball without the Grappling Hook or Ice Beam? Or is it possible to play through Deep Norfair without the Space Jump and saving Maridia for last? (The rest of the route would need revision if this option ended up being taken)
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Walljumping to the wand gives me the height, but having to head to the left from a horizontal velocity of 0 doesn't give me enough height to keep by the time I'm lined up horizontally with the wand, and so it's better to just jump from the ground at super-speed. In some later bosses to airship stages, the ground is higher at parts and I may be able to do more, perhaps grab the wand high enough to skip those seconds when falling.
And I'm not getting any fireworks. I'll also be getting flowers (before the star) instead of mushrooms (after the star) as much as the game allows me to, like I did in 1-2.
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Ouzo wrote:
If I decide to work on this again, I'll just restart it since almost all the levels can be improved (because of mistakes and new strategies found by JXQ).
However, if there's not much interest in a Knuckles version of Sonic 1, I don't think it's worth it.
Well, I'll go ahead and say that there is interest from my direction! If nothing else, it would be a neat comparison to say "Knuckles + spin dash is x:xx faster than Sonic without". This especially applies since you want to take the traditional paths in Marble Zone.
Also Xebra mentioned that I didn't find the optimal path in a few levels of my run, so you may want to ask him for those possible improvements. Of course, with Knuckles and spin dash, these improvements may already be obsoleted.
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Well I am bringing the following things with me out of town, since I'm not going to have a computer with me:
1) Super Nintendo
2) Super Metroid
I will see what I can come up with route-wise. I'll definitely be sharing my ideas, because I know I'll need some help with optimizing macro and micro all over this game.
I'll be back the 24th, so I'll let you know what I've got then!
Edit: I just packed my Super Nintendo into my suitcase and I feel like the coolest person on the planet. End statement.
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I suppose editing a post with an update in the run isn't a good idea. *bump*
I finished 1-6 and 1-C. You can find the progress in my signature or in previous posts. I did 1-6 a couple times and got the same frame at the end of the level, so I don't think there are lag issues. On the airship, I gained super-speed so that after defeating the boss, I could jump higher to grab the wand a little faster. This saved 7 or 8 frames altogether.
Also I played back the run with PRG0 for kicks, and so far no desync :)
Let me know if anyone's got any questions or suggestions. I'll be back on the 24th!
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Baxter wrote:
If I'm not mistaken, you save 1 from on Genisto on 1-1, and another on 1-2...
That's the same comparison I got. However, Genisto could have finished 1-2 earlier, but in his run it is ideal for the hammer brother to move as little as possible, so he delayed it to manipulate that.
Surprisingly, it is 396 frames faster to get the leaf in 1-F and then get the whistle (minus stuff later: minor menu changes, getting hit and getting fire flower) than to wall-glitch to boom-boom.
Method 1: (fire flower) exits fortress on frame 5161
Method 2: (1-F leaf) exits fortress on frame 4767
Method 3: (1-2 leaf) exits fortress on frame 4825 (fortress play is improvable by 12 frames, measuring by Genisto's run)
All three runs (EDIT: now only the last two) can be found where my WIP goes, and that would be here.
For Method 3 to beat Method 2, 1-2 + leaf must be doable (4825 - 4767) - 12 = 46 frames faster, which I highly doubt is possible. Using the goomba to stomp on made it easier to change directions later, and getting the leaf to fall below (to perhaps get it while running instead of jumping) would require jumping on a note block, which makes Mario lose his running steam eventually anyway. The end of the level may be improvable to get super-speed a bit earlier, but I don't see the improvement needed to make it beat Method 2 happening. Plus, with 1-2 changed, I would have 2 star cards now, and that will cause a delay later. So I just went with Method 2. But if anyone has ideas that could improve it, I'm all ears.
I also finished 1-5. I had to take a hit somewhere to lose my leaf, so I picked the beginning of 1-5 to use the getting-hit-invincibility to get super-speed earlier. I think it was my best choice, but I could be missing something. I'll be getting the fire flower on the airship.
This is probably the last WIP I'll have time to do before I leave, so when I don't post or update for a week, don't think I've run away! :)
EDIT: I finished the run through World 1. The link above now includes this file, as well as the 1-2 leaf test.
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Awesome, another double-post! I'm up to 1-5. Here's my progress so far.
Getting the Flower in 1-2 caused the hammer brother to move differently on the map. However, the total squares that he moves before fighting him still remains 5, so I don't think I'm losing time here.
Is it possible to make the hammer brother start on the bottom instead of him jumping up on top of the bricks? I tried this for a while with no success. Also, I still have yet to test getting the leaf in 1-F (or 1-2) and flying to the whistle, so this may or may not be used.
Any questions or comments are welcome!
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Fabian wrote:
No I was the one who voted no. It was a misclick, so never mind it.
I've always thought the order of the choices (with "No" being on top) was unintuitive. Maybe this should be changed to avoid mis-voting.
nitsuja wrote:
I wonder if anyone forgot to use that?
*Raises hand*
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Because of the nature of this game, it's very doubtful this will be published, no matter how well it's done.
krieg747's runguanobowl's run
If you're having fun making it, keep at it! I just wanted to make sure you were aware of the situation.
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4matsy wrote:
I just can't remember the exact location =P
I think I found it. I used a game genie code to force level entry on any space, which puts me in the hammer brother level without the hammer brothers. The spot to the left of 5-5 gives me a 1-up in the top right, a 10-coin in the lower left, and a leaf in the lower-middle. Strangely, the 1-up brick turns into a coin-heaven note block after hitting it, and jumping on it sends me to a glitched version of the same level. Probably a result of the game genie code. I tried to get a hammer brother to walk here but no luck after lots of trying. Ah well, still cool!
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Double post!
I'm wondering if anyone has any random-lag tips for me. I have finished 1-2 and I gained one frame in 1-1 compared to Genisto's play of it, and lost one in 1-2 (making me even with him). It seems that I can play either level in slightly different ways and get a range of about five frames when finishing the level. Are there certain things to avoid that often cause this lag? I haven't found any patterns to anything yet.
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When I play the movie with v3 of FCEU's update (the first one with fast-forward that skips frames), it desyncs in 6-1, jumping over the last plant. By changing the press of A button during that jump to last two frames longer, the run then makes it to 6-3. When running over the one-block-wide pillars, it looks like Genisto got super-speed, but I can't get it to happen no matter what I try.
I also tried hex-editing from the desync in World 5's lava fortress and got stuck after getting the starman. The flight power doesn't act the same.
Harvey Birdman: "Sigh!"
Also thanks for the info on FCEU.
What's Nesmock?
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