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NrgSpoon wrote:
At this point, duck and jump to break the bricks above you, then duck-jump again to get on top of the pipe and go down it.
Unfortunately, this doesn't work because the game won't allow you to jump at that point.
4masty wrote:
A prime example: in the sky half of world 5, get the HB just to the left of the lava fortress, then go visit him. All kinds of good stuff will be in the blocks, among them a 1-up... o_O
Sweet, thanks for the answer. World 5 was the one I never found any items in, so now I will go and see what all the fuss is about :)
Edit: I couldn't get this to work in World 5...no items at all, and I tried as many spots as I could get that HB to walk. Any ideas, 4masty?
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My route is basically planned. Although there are a few uncertainties, they will have to be tested individually when I reach the respective places in the game. I hope to have a WIP up before the weekend of the first world (or most of it). On Saturday, I go out of town for a week, with no internet (frown), so there won't be updates during that time.
I had one question I thought someone might know; in hammer brother battles, you can sometimes get powerups from the bricks, for example, a fire flower on the very right(?) of World 1's HB, or a leaf in the bottom middle of World 3's or the bottom right of World 6's. But it's not always there. Does anyone know what the requirements are to make these powerups appear?
Bladegash wrote:
But don't funerals take weeks to plan and stuff? I don't see how dying can possibly save time!
LOL
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FODA wrote:
If they want to make their runs more different than ours, they can start labeling their runs as "legit speedrun" on every avi they make. That's a good solution.
THANK YOU!! I couldn't have said it better.
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LocalH wrote:
I understand that M2k2 is his forum and he can say what he wants, but it's also my right to call him a loony for equating "makes emulated speedruns with slowdown and savestates" with "forcibly having sex with someone against their will".
Indeed. You can definitely tell the difference between the attitude on forums moderated by Bisqwit (mature and open-minded) and Nate (neither of those). I'm very happy to be on this side.
No matter what they are called, there will always be an angry community. Those that don't educate themselves about these TASs (the ones on this site which clearly indicate their intent and origin) only have themselves to blame.
Edit: I predict locking within 24 hours.
Edit again:
TRH wrote:
Graveworm, we banned you because (blah blah blah)
This is exactly the difference in forum attitude I was referring to.
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Well the only toad house is way out of the way and behind a key-door at first. There is a pipe, but I don't think it's possible to die in a pipe by going through the walls (since they are solid). I need a pit (otherwise I'll need to get hit several times to die), and 2-3 has one at the beginning, plus it's at a pretty good spot on the map. I'll try to make it look interesting, somehow. Thanks for the input everybody!
*adds "uses death as shorcut" to list*
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As far as 2-3, I won't be able to glitch through the bricks and enter the pipe because the empty spaces are in bad spots and cause me to fall below the pipe and get pushed through it to the right side of the screen, instead of being right over top of it. So now I'm debating which way to do this:
1) 2-1, 2-2, 2-F, HB (get musicbox), 2-3 (die), HB (get hammer), break rock, 2-P (get mushroom for wall-glitch), 2-C (get flower for boss)
2) 2-1, 2-2, 2-F, 2-3, 2-D, 2-4/5, HB (get hammer for 4-F), 2-P, 2-C
Method 1 would definitely be faster, probably close to 10 seconds faster, but involves dying, and requires playing 4-F (since the hammer will be used here instead). Dying would kind of suck, but at the same time, I'm trying to get the fastest time possible with my only restriction being no using warp whistles. So, what does everyone think of this?
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Ok, a new possibility has been brought to my attention with this hammer brother stuff. In World 2, one of the hammer brothers carries a hammer, but he starts on the right side of the map, since there is a rock that could be broken to skip 2-3, 2-D, and 2-4/5. He is manipulatable to within reach in four moves after 2-3, or five moves before 2-3. There are three levels before reaching 2-3.
One way to do this does, unfortunately, involve a death. By manipulating the second hammer brother into position, dying at him once, then playing him again and beating him, I could manipulate the first hammer brother into position without ever playing 2-3. Then the hammer would skip three levels, in exchange for doing 4-F. However, I tested an idea on 2-3 that saves a lot of time (by passing through bricks), and I believe it could be optimized enough to faster than the death-including alternative.
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Did some hammer brother studying. Their movement algorithm seems to be the following:
1: Move randomly 1 space.
2: If that space is occupied by anything (level, completed level, mushroom house, game, castle, pipe) then goto 1.
I will test more, but this seems to be the case for the entire game. This is great because exiting at different frames affects this movement. I can hopefully manipulate the hammer brothers to avoid ones I don't want to hit and hit ones that carry the clouds I want.
As far as World 1's hammer brother, I need to die twice in order to get him to move enough. One death would have been worth it probably (7 seconds to die, 10 second hammer bro battle), but two is not. Plus I found a spot that will benefit from using the star - the first fortress in World 6. This actually works out for the better because I'd rather not have a death in the run.
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FODA wrote:
hmmm i remember entering the object corners like that, but when i did it, mario got stuck (could only release it by jumping). did you do anything special so he would zip through? or was it because of the pipe? or is my memory just getting worse?
I'm guessing it's because you didn't duck, but I haven't tried this in other places so I don't know for sure if that's the reason. It seems that Mario's "check-if-in-block" location is Mario himself if he's small, Mario's top half if he's big, and his bottom half if he's ducking. This would explain how both that 7-7 glitch worked and how the duck-jump into a corner glitch works.
Tailz wrote:
As for the star, I think the best place to use it would be 7-7 because you could skip the first star it gives you and take off.
This was a possibility, but I just learned how to skip through this level (see slightly earlier post). My other idea was the last fortress in World 7, but I think firepower works just as good in that case.
tmont wrote:
If there is a quick way to die that takes less time than defeating a hammer bro, you could avoid him, providing there is a way to completely manipulate which direction the hammer bros. move.
It's a little faster to enter a level and die than fight a hammer brother - I'll mess around with this (unless I can think of a spot that saves more time than this in a level somewhere, which is doubtful).
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I believe that trick was mentioned in the submission thread for Mario Adventure. It's related to the screen scrolling, so I don't think I'll be able to avoid World 1's Hammer Bro, which is a bummer, and plus I can't think of a place to use that star to save any time at all.
However, I may get lucky and be able to avoid hammer bros in Worlds 2, 3, 4, and 6 using this trick (although I do want to fight the ones that give me clouds).
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Tailz wrote:
That jump glitch is insane! It's going to save you loads of time. How does it work?
(I believe) it works like this: Mario can walljump in this game similar to other Mario games. If you jump at a wall as though you were setting up a walljump, but don't jump, then Mario "lands" in mid-air. When he lands in this kind of spot, he stands up, and now he's inside a block, so he gets ejected to the right.
I tried doing 1-1 today. Lag problems. I tied Vatchern's 1263 once (but he's since improved by a frame), but it was more of a "try the level repeatedly until I got it" technique. I haven't learned much yet. I plan to do a few versions of the first three levels to see which is fastest:
1) Get mushroom in 1-1, leaf in 1-2, whistle in 1-F (and get firepower in hammer brother battle)
2) Get mushroom in 1-1, firepower in 1-F, wall-glitch and kill boom-boom
3) Get mushroom in 1-2, firepower in 1-F, wall-glitch and kill boom-boom
But I got distracted. I accidentally fell through the bricks in 1-1 as small Mario and was pushed all the way through them. This led me to try a different level as small Mario, and found a nice shortcut for 7-7. A sample FCM of the shorcut is here. I do the glitch as small Mario, but it's possible to do when big simply by ducking after getting stuck in the pipe. (I'm using the Game Genie debug code to test stuff in this game, so it can be tested simply by pressing select a couple frames before entering the pipe)
This technique may be possible in other levels, although none come to mind currently.
I also tried the 7-1 wall glitch in 7-6 and could not get it to work despite a lot of different tries. I would think it would have to work, because it's the exact same setup. 7-6 is skippable anyway via P-wing, but if that could be saved for another level, all the better.
Maybe someday I'll actually get to running the game instead of theorizing and planning about running the game :)
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nitsuja wrote:
Yes, it's definitely possible there.
Woot! This changes everything. You don't even have to be at full speed to use that glitch? Oh my. I also wonder if there are places that allow you to use the glitch that Genisto shows off in his Amazing run, for example in the well-known Toad House death, to skip through a level like that. I'll work more on the route tomorrow with this new info. Thanks!
Vatchern wrote:
I think it would be cool if we kept at par with each other level for level so we could help each other if needed. but that means you would probably have to wait for me since i do more levels ^_^
I think this sounds like a good idea too. I would just need to find something to do while waiting (equals another run), otherwise I'd probably get restless and race ahead, as I sometimes (always) tend to do with this hobby.
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Thanks for pointing me in the right direction! I was able to solve the problem.
I'm going to give that second one a shot next week at work. Hopefully it will take a while, that way it will help the time pass :)
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daniayaw wrote:
and what about the toad's houses? arent you going in any of them?
The only one I can think of that will save time would be to get the hammer suit in World 6, if it's fast enough against bowser to justify that time and then some. Can you think of others that may help?
FODA wrote:
all hammer bros move at the same time, so if you manipulate it right (by exiting the level 1 frame later or sooner) you can get all of them to move only 1 square, all at the same time.
Really? Even in the later worlds when they just walk and walk and walk and walk? That would be great. And I just tested, treasure ships do move at the same speed as hammer brothers, just without the shuffling sound. It may be neat to get one sometime in the run, as long as I can avoid it (and it's not a good prize I'd be missing).
Edit: I'm trying to do the duck-jump into a corner trick on a few levels and I just can't get it to work. I was wondering if someone who already can do the trick well could verify if it's possible to use in 7-1, to duck jump into the space with the door and push through the wall entirely to skip the level. Something similar may be possible in 6-5, although there is a middle room to deal with.
Edit #4096: I have mapped out the route's progress so far, it can be found here. Or in my signature for the time being.
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Sorry I didn't comment earlier; it looks very good. I have two questions, both related to the new acceleration method (to which I'm very ignorant):
1) Could this method be used after exiting the pipe at the end of 1-2?
2) Could it be used differently / avoided to speed things up in 1-4?
Hopefully you are able to stick it out with this project; it looks like it will turn out at a high quality.
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Oh man, I would be such an ass if I didn't share some of these glorious quotes from this guide:
SUPER MARIO BROS. 3 NINTENDO POWER STRATEGY GUIDE wrote:
"You have to like the Tanooki Suit. Not only is it cool looking, it gives Mario the power to turn into a Statue."
"You have to act fast on these Donut Lifts. Stomp Dry Bones, collect the item and hit the road! Try not to panic!"
"B Button run and jump over this one. It's easy if you know he's there; that's the beauty of video maps!"
"Go straight down at the beginning of the world to find a Power-Up. You should always collect Power-Ups, because they're worth 1,000 points."
Seriously, I was expecting to turn the page and read EASTMOST PENINSULA IS THE SECRET! But in all fairness, this book has maps of every level, and that lets me think about optimizing while at work. So here's some stuff I've come up with:
There are five Jugem's Cloud items. Two are in Princess's letters, two are from Hammer Bros, and one is from a secret in World 3-7. I determined that it's not worth it to get that fifth cloud from 3-7. Instead I will be using a cloud to bypass 3-6 (an autoscrolling level) when the bridges are intact to go directly to 3-8. Getting the cloud in 3-7 would require beating 3-6 and 3-7, both with autoscrolling parts. As of now, the levels that will be skipped will be 3-6, 5-9, and 7-4 (all autoscrollers), and an undetermined fourth level, which must be in World 6, 7, or 8. I'm unsure at this point which level would benefit the time the most by skipping it.
There are three P-Wings that are gotten automatically when finishing worlds 1, 4 and 6. (There are also more to get from various hammer brothers, but I don't think they benefit enough) Two levels that would benefit from a P-wing are 7-1 and 7-6 - both of the indoor pipe levels where you jump and ride on the light-bulb lifts. Since I'll have a third for free, I'm not sure which level would be best. Perhaps more than one level would offset the time it took to get one from a hammer brother. 3-1 and 4-4 come to mind as levels that would gain a slight amount of time with a P-wing (both levels are mostly water). One other thing to consider when using a P-wing is how soon and without delay Mario can regain firepower (or at least, stop being raccoon).
There is one music box obtained at the end of world 3, and another hidden in a fast exit of 5-1. I'll definitely use one in World 7 to bypass the second plant-level, and the other near the end of World 6 to minimize hammer brother movement (they walk all day in that stupid world).
There is one place to use a hammer - bypassing world 6-7 - and there are three places to get a hammer. I think getting one from a hammer brother in World 3 is the best bet because it puts an extra level between the beginning and skipping 3-6, ensuring that the bridge will be down.
Lastly, there will be one star in the inventory from the unavoidable hammer brother in World 1. Any ideas where it might be useful? Maybe a short mini-fortress where I could kill Boom-Boom immediately with it. (I also may have a whistle from the first mini-fortress in inventory, depending on if it's faster to finish the level that way, or to wall-glitch to boom-boom and fireball him. Not that it matters much cuz it won't be used.)
So...if anyone has ideas on where to use clouds, P-wings, etc. or general map suggestions or questions, let me know, and I'll add it to my list of stuff to test.
Other stuff I wrote down to test:
1) Are treasure ships faster than hammer bros in respect to map movement?
2) How many turns does a music box last?
3) Does less hammer brothers remaining = less overall movement time on map screen?
I'll keep updating with what I find out in an effort to answer as many questions as I can. This way, by the time this is all done, everyone can be confident that the route is optimal. Thanks to everyone for the support!
Edit: DK64 could you possibly shorten your post to avoid side-scrolling?
Edit-squared: I also decided to use PRG1 as everyone else has, because it will make comparisons easier. (Specifically, I'm interested to see how much time difference there will be between Vatchern's run and mine.)
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First of all, I wanted to share this awesomeness with all of you:
Super Mario Bros. 3 Nintendo Power Strategy Guide and Sample page
(If it doesn't load, try again later, stupid geocities..)
I found this at my parents' house in the attic with a bunch of old gaming magazines. I got this back in October of 1990!
Alright, I searched for SMB3 threads and really couldn't find a good one to post on, so I'm making my own for this run. I won't be using whistles, but otherwise I'm going for fastest time. This means I won't be playing every level, unnecessary hammer brothers, or anything else that isn't absolutely necessary to get me to the end of the game as fast as possible.
So first, I'm going to be figuring out my path before I start running the game. I won't be able to determine absolutely everything because of randomness of the hammer brothers moving. But things that I need to consider:
Which levels to take when paths branch. Usually this is a pretty obvious choice, but some decisions are close and need to be tested.
Which levels to skip with clouds. There are five clouds in the game, one of them hidden in 3-7 (which may not be worth getting), and the others from hammer brothers or princess letters.
When to use musicboxes to avoid hammer brothers (or maybe stop them from moving). When to get hammers and use them to skip levels. Figuring out how much I can manipulate the hammer bros. movement on the map.
Testing which levels can be severely skipped or shortened with a P-wing (World 7 comes to mind). Walljumping may work in some cases as well.
I also wonder if there is a reason others have used PRG1 when running this game. I would prefer PRG0 because the names of the worlds in the ending are cooler, but that's my only reason really. If anyone knows of some strange problem with using PRG0 then please let me know.
Once I have a basic route down, I'll post it here and then I guess I'll work on learning this game's engine.
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