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Thanks Shark (and earlier, IdeaMagnate) for the support. I seem to have a lot of it, and I feel I'll need it!
The run has been updated to Green Hill Zone 2.
Comments: I ended up gaining a frame by the end, which puts me 2 frames up altogether. I got the speed shoes 2 frames near the beginning by steering left slightly after bouncing off the enemy before going through the wall to increase momentum to the right. One of those frames was lost by the end, I think it was in the segment just before the S-pipe hitting all the enemies. I pressed backwards for one frame just before entering the pipe and it gave me extra speed when exiting.
I'll probably work on Green Hill 3 tomorrow.
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Hey the file is only 1K zipped. I can put it at Geocities. The run is here.
Comparison to Xebra's v3: Two frames ahead at the midpost. I also didn't have to let go of -> for two frames, just the luck of the frame I was on. I enter the S-pipes at the same frame (meaning I lost the two I was ahead somehow), but have a tiny bit more speed, so I exit the S-pipes one frame earlier, and this is the one frame I improved on the level.
Comments / mistakes / info, whatever anyone's got, is appreciated. I'm still a little confused by the physics but I'm catching on. It's more of a guess-and-check each case than a general rulebook at this point. Thanks for the tip Angerfist, I did know that, as you'll see in the WIP.
The next two levels I think will go faster because it appears that getting the speed shoes simplifies things a bit.
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Some of the times would be incredible. The physics are so seemingly random that manipulating them would destroy the game, especially in the lower-gravity levels. Hell, I got 1:45 on the moon (platinum is 2:20) on the console, so who knows how low the times on a TAS could go?
Another thing to be considered is that you don't start with the racing vehicles, and so if certain levels are best played with a certain vehicle that you don't have yet, then adjustments would have to be made.
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Apologies for the double post.
I have finished the first act one frame ahead of the latest run by Xebra (my comparison was between the first frame the sign at the goal started spinning). I believe the end is improvable a bit more, so I will work on it more later tonight. I gained two frames near the beginning, when jumping up to the ring monitor, although I'm not sure exactly what caused it. It pretty much looks identical to Xebra's run, which doesn't surprise me since his run is so well optimized. I think I jumped a bit different in the loop-the-loop, it may be noticeable if you're really looking for it.
The S-curves also gave me problems, but then I read this forum more and I guess they gave everyone problems! So then I didn't feel so dumb. Just guess-and-check until I entered the curve early enough and with enough speed.
If someone enlightens me to a place where I can upload GMV files, I'll gladly share it to see what everyone thinks.
EDIT: Hahaha post 304! It's funny because 304 upside down spells hoe (on a digital clock, for example).
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I think the screen scrolls up because there is only one way Yoshi is programmed to fly, and it makes the screen scroll. When it's tricked into gaining more air, the game still considers it an initial descent.
This trick could work on Bowser Star Road, but I don't get how to start the trick by bouncing off an enemy. The only enemies on that level are Blarggs and Pirhana Plants, neither or which can be stomped - well, they can be yoshi-stomped, but it doesn't kill them. Plus with the nature of the flying constantly turning Yoshi backwards, I don't think it would be possible to fly under the pipes just before the lava hill.
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Thanks, I think I understand. Basically, you can use savestates to rewind, but not to rewind and then fast forward through a different technique.
This will take a bit of getting used to. Lots of backups!
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Wow this is weird!
Demo here.
Left and right do change your direction, but still have flight preserved. You have to change direction enough to be moving in that direction as well, then use the every-other frame trick. If the direction is just held, then by the time liftoff occurs, you are facing the same direction you are holding, which causes you to dive.
What I noticed is that the screen continues to follow Yoshi up the entire time. That might be handy in an extremely specific circumstance.
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Truncated wrote:
JGens does not have this feature, so you have to keep track of which savestate is most recent and in which order to load them.
Hmmm...I'm not familiar with this procedure.
Say I'm at the top of a hill, and there are two different ideas to do the next part of the level. I save state 1, and then I try one idea, using states 2 and 3 to optimize it. Now I want to try the other idea to see which is better. Normally I'd just load state 1, and then optimize that idea. Loading state 1 is "out of order" I think...so what would be done in this case? Loading state 3, then 2, then 1?
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I'd still like to attempt a 100%, but I'm going to try Sonic 1 first. I think a game with a more complicated physics engine will help me handle Super Metroid better - all I've had to do is make Mario fly so far :-P
And thanks for the Ceres Station offer, but what I'll probably end up doing when the time comes is watch yours a bunch, but then do it myself to try and match (perhaps even beat) that time. I learn games the best this way.
I downloaded Red Scarlet's 100% run, I plan on watching that soon. Just cuz I'm TASing Sonic doesn't mean I can't start route planning here!
Oh and guys, my name ends with Q. :)
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I put controller 2 at 3-button (not sure why it wasn't that) and made a third try at GH1 and it did not desync when playing back. Hooray! I'll probably try a few more times to make sure it was this, but I'm guessing it was. Thanks guys.
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I started messing around with recording in Gens for this game. I record Green Hill 1 (and got a laughable :28) but when I went to play it back, it desynced shortly into the level.
I made another and improved to :25, but when playing back, it desynced again, but not until the midpost of the level. This leads me to believe I'm doing something that is bad for this emulator.
I'm recording from start, and obviously loading savestates pretty frequently, and using frame advance at times and 50% play at times (to see if a jump made it, or whatever). I'm also using GENS Test version 9f.
Anything strange I should know about this emulator? I read on some of the genesis submissions that they used Gens Test version 10. Does this exist, and if so, where can I get it? Maybe it will fix these desyncs.
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Hmm.. what error are you getting now? Is the file unzipping correctly, or does it not allow you to play it, or does it play back and then desync after a little bit?
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Thanks for all the feedback! Some interesting choices on these giant lists :)
As far as Mega Man games go, I'm not that interested in TASing those, plus they all have someone dedicated in the game working on them. I thought about doing DKC2 before I started Super Demo World, but I played it a bit and thought the result would be pretty boring, especially for the first two worlds since there are so many shortcut barrels. I personally detest DKC3.
With RPGs & Racing games, I just can't fathom trying to TAS either genre; I think my brain would explode. The same goes for N64 games of the 3D variety - and it doesn't help that I can't get the emulator to work (although I haven't tried much). Plus I'm not interested in 3D games very much. I guess I'm old school.
I'd like to do SMB3 eventually, but I feel like I've had enough Mario for now. So that means either Sonic or Super Metroid. I'm leaning toward Sonic currently, mostly because Saturn is currently working on Super Metroid (except not 100%) and I feel he will discover some good stuff about the game by the time he finishes that will help in a 100% run. Additionally, the route planning for that would be a massive undertaking, whereas Sonic would be more level-by-level (not saying this makes Sonic easy). I know I said I like the broader optimization, but I don't feel I'm up to the challenge of Super Metroid just yet.
So...I think I'm going to spend awhile learning the ins and outs of Sonic, watching existing runs, and learning GENS. I don't want to 100% commit to it yet, but I'll let you all know what I end up deciding to do.
Also Xebra, if I decide to do this, I'll definitely take you up on the help offer because I do not know this game nearly as well as you or several others. Thanks!
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Wow, CC1. That just seems like so long ago...
I wonder if Bowser has a slight randomness to when he stops and throws the Mechkoopas? I guess before I do another Bowser battle I'll have to study them all to try and figure out what's causing the delay.
For my next TAS...well, check this new topic I created.
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As far as another TAS, I'm not a huge fan of doing one that has been done already because the fun for me lies in optimization on a broader scale rather than specific movements, although I do enjoy both - for example, in the SDW 120-exit run, I really liked figuring out which special items could save time in which levels, and when to deviate from the optimal map path to get them, etc. Of course that also took specific optimizations to find when these items could be glitched into a shortcut, but that's all part of the process.
Anyway, I've thought about several different runs, and I'm wondering what is really in demand at this time, so I went and made a topic about it. I've got several ideas in mind here, but more are welcome!
NES Super Mario 3 - no warps (but not 100% either)
Pros: I like this because I would get to optimize which sets of levels would be the fastest, when to get items from mushroom houses to use on the world map (like music boxes and clouds), and so forth.
Cons: I'd need to learn the SMB3 engine much better than I know it currently. FCEU is not as good of an emulator as SNES9x. Seems like most people here want 100% levels rather than just no warps.
SNES Super Metroid - 100% items
Pros: I just think this would rule. Before emulators ever existed, I worked for awhile on optimizing the route in getting 100% items. SNES9x again, which I love. Michael Flatley had a really good WIP going, but it seems to have been halted for some time now. I could learn a lot from that with the "show controller input" option.
Cons: This game is very complicated. Lots of using the turbo function for the L/R buttons, which I have not had success with in the past.
Genesis Sonic the Hedgehog
Pros: A great game that hasn't been fully TASed yet. Not as complicated as the rest of the series because of the lack of a spin dash, although I'm sure it's still an extremely tough game to optimize.
Cons: Many of the levels have already been done extremely well by Xebra, Ouzo, and a few others, so unless I somehow could do better than they did (which I doubt), then I'd essentially be copying their work for some of the levels, and this is boring to me. I don't know much about Gens, but it seems that it's not as customizable as the other emulators.
GBA Castlevania Harmony of Disonnance
Pros: The different movements acquired in this game make for a very fast-looking run, and a fun challenge in optimizing. VBA seems like a solid emulator.
Cons: I don't know nearly enough about this game to make a good TAS.
SNES Smash TV - 2-player
Pros: Man this would be a sweet.
Cons: It would take a million years, and I have no idea how to efficiently do a 2-player run like that. This is really more of a wish than anything.
I don't know if I'll have the kind of time I devoted to SDW for long enough to finish another game. I'd hate to just add something else to the WIP pile, but once I get working on something, I always seem to find time, so I might as well do this while I'm still enjoying it!
SDW-15 and the SMW runs are possible candidates for improvement down the road, but I'd want to try something else new before I think about trying that.
So, what do you think of these ideas? Or do you have a better one? Suggestions welcome; hit me!
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Highness wrote:
But otherwise I think you should not be so super-picky about it. Maby in a version after this if you decide to optimize it that badly.
...
For instance.. When I made my first version of Mystic defender I thought that it was GREAT! It was superfast. But the more I watched it, the more I saw places for improvement. Hence I made a new version and submitted that one.
I'm excited to see the movie too, but personally I admire very much Saturn's dedication at this point. Plus, Super Metroid already has a run that is quite optimized (minus the wiggle-arm and a few other tricks).
Alas it is Saturn's call. I await the first WIP :)
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I'm downloading the SDW file using Firefox, and I consistently get 27,960 bytes for the size of the file. And it works for me, extracting with WinRAR, and plays without desync. I've never heard of such a strange error before. Sorry I can't help more!
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Fabian wrote:
The two additional timesavers I've thought of is to bring a shell in Pipe Star World to throw on the key block, and to duckfly from the raft in Bowser's Star World.
Duckfly = good idea. The shell I don't think will work, because bringing it through that pipe will just kill the pirahna plant inside the top of it, losing the shell. If there's a way to get a shell up there, then I would think it saves time, but who knows with lag.
Also, when spinflying up to the improvable passage in Misty Castle, did you improve the flying in your latest version?
In the 15-exit run, yes the flying up toward that passage was improved by I think 6 frames or so. In the 120-exit run, I fly up there, land, and then use the jumping glitch, but only at full running speed, not full flying speed, so that's where the new improvement comes in.
I just timed my Bowser battle to compare to yours and the SMW ones, and the 120 exit is 61 frames faster, so it'll probably be closer to 6 seconds.
Sweet! I'm going to have to watch the end of our run closely to find out how you improved that.
I have no idea what TAS to do next. I have a few that I think would be fun to do, but I'd hate to get into to one only to realize that I don't want to finish it.
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I'm not sure how quickly I'll get to it, but I'm going to compile a list here of improvements for the SDW-15 run, mostly from strategies learned during the 120 run.
Misty Isle 1 - Jumping glitch saves 33 frames.
Misty Isle 2 - Jumping glitch after shell bounce saves 15 frames.
Misty Isle 3 - Jumping glitch saves some frames - uncertain about the exact number because the 120-exit run got the fire flower where the 15-exit run will not need to. Probably around 30 frames.
Misty Isle 4
#1 Misty Castle - It's possible to gain flying speed in the passage to the pipe, so this is even an improvement over the 120-exit run. Probably another 30 frames.
Misty Star World - Level can be done on a completely different path, taking the top route with the turtles to get extra lives. This way, powers will be switched one less time as well, so a bit of time will be saved, but the beginning of the level will be more entertaining to watch. I'd really like to do a combo of the best parts of the two runs from the 120-exit run (and spell out my name hehe).
Desert Star World
Water Star World
Crystal Star World - There's a tiny bit of lag that could be worked on.
Sky Star World - Sticking to the ceiling instead of slowing down flight for a frame or two will save a couple frames.
Ice Star World
Pipe Star World - Getting the key was improved in the 120-exit run, although there was more lag in that run, so it's tough to tell how many frames are saved. I'd say 15-20.
Bowser Star World - With no vine to use, this won't be as fast as the 120-exit run. However, flying much lower after the raft is possible, so getting a dragon coin and bopping one or two goombas can be added. I'll also see if I can slide-kill a Blargg and not lose my running speed.
Backdoor Star World - The end was improved slightly, saving about 5 frames.
Bowser's Back Door - Around two seconds were saved here from flying much earlier in the level. Additional time was saved during the Bowser battle.
This adds up to just under 5 seconds (0.42%) of improvement.
I don't want anyone to think I'm trying to monopolize this run; anyone else who wants to TAS this, please feel free. I don't mind having my runs obsoleted :)
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That's really strange. I just tested this and only had to extract once. The file name downloaded ends in ".gmv.zip" so I just put it through winRAR and got the gmv file, which I played with GENS version 9f.
Glad to hear you got it working though! This is an awesome run.
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Quite a few of the new items saved a good amount of time actually, for example, the message block in Pipe World 4 saved time in the pipes and revealing the hidden coin blocks, and the vine in Bowser's Star World allowed the raft to be abandoned in the beginning of the level. Then again, some were just to show off the item or strange phenomenon, like the message block at the end of the third castle.
There are more levels that would individually benefit from some of these items, but if the time required to get them was more than the time saved, then it wasn't used in that case. An example of this would be using a springboard at the end of Crystal Cavern 3 to jump from the mole earlier.
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Bisqwit: Wow, thank you!
I noticed on the front page was that it says "SNES Super Demo World by in 2:13:18" without the author names. I'm pretty sure it's intentional (to keep formatting on the main page), but I've never seen that happen on the main page before, so just in case, I thought it should be brought to attention.
Thanks again, this happifies me greatly :)
Scubed: Thanks for the info! I will update the submission with it.
Less Ashamed of Self: That was one of my favorite levels, as well. We didn't mark it as recommended level because the nature of it (giant autoscroller) would turn many people off from it.
Thanks for all the nice comments everyone!
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xebra wrote:
I've never been able to get a CD to break into more than a few pieces before or since then, and I've never been able to get the statue to resonate like that again when struck, either. Very strange!
This puts a hilarious image in my head of someone sitting with a stack of CDs winging them one by one at a nearby statue. Roffle!
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Vatchern wrote:
What is the point? You cant get credit at SDA or TG for it if you speedrun.
Personally, I don't think that is too important, because we aren't "competing" (at least, I'm not) with the runs on those sites, as they are played without tools, and are testing a different set of skills. I always viewed it as - if the result from TASing a hacked game is entertaining, then it is worthy of being published. This rule would catch most bad hacks as well, since it is generally not possible to make an entertaining movie out of a bad hack, although I'm sure there are exceptions, and would still allow otherwise good TASs onto the site. Because of this double-edged sword approach to hacked games, I am glad that they are still given permission on a case-by-case basis. I'm also glad there is a separate section for hacked movies, and I agree that it would make sense to create a separate section for hacked games in the forums as well.
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