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I just watched this run and thought it was very cool how the level-replaying glitch was pointed out with brief text.
In the Mupen64 forum, the idea of "director's commentary" for these runs was brought up. I personally think that would be a really great feature, for both runner and viewer alike.
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When I last watched the run, it was up to World 3, and the only thing I didn't like about the game was the backgrounds (or lack of). Worlds 2 and 3 both look really bad to me...for example in World 3, there can be more than three colors to the level. Well I just watched it up to World 6 and I definitely like the last three world designs and motifs much better than the first 3.
Aside from the look, all the new features make this an interesting hack. Kyrsimys, I like how you keep a feather in reserve to switch to just to get the extra air to make a jump, yet keep running speed. Very nice.
As far as publishability, well...if a run of Air is getting published, then I can't see how this could be denied the same.
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xebra wrote:
I just hate reading meaningless garbage in a forum I usually enjoy, what can I say. And lots of people are spouting a LOT of meaningless garbage.
And this gives you the right to be an asshole? Honestly I'd rather read people's ideas - the only meaningless garbage I see is your animosity.
xebra wrote:
The POINT of BisqBot is to try to get really lucky in situations that are chaotic and unpredictable.
That was the point of Bisqbot in Mega Man. If this is what you meant to constrict the thread to, then maybe you should have stated that in your first post. But when someone else talked about "pruning" the input, you deemed it off-topic "random bullshit". Off-topic? Your topic is "BisqBot Request: Zelda 1", which is exactly what was discussed, but as I have said, the people who don't agree with you 100% needlessly catch the brunt of your anger.
In the pre-Bisqbot Mega Man run, it just looked improvable when trying to manipulate enemy drops, although since it's chaotic and unpredictable, it wasn't obvious how to improve it. But it's not like Phil's Zelda run is sloppy. Yes I know, the game is chaotic and unpredictable, thanks for the buzz words. But there are 37 (if I counted right) enemy encounters, and sword/bombs are being used at about the fastest rate allowed, and not missing, and I also can't find a part where, if he had more hearts/bombs/etc, things could be done substantially quicker. That's not to say it's unimprovable, as Bisqbot can search for things that are (deep voice) chaotic and unpredictable, but I don't see much improvement from this, and certainly not 20%.
xebra wrote:
It is utterly retarded to talk about programming an AI or giving button sequences some sort of fitness score or anything similar. I really wish people would shut up about it. They just sound stupid to people that have any understanding at all of the subject.
If I was as excited about an idea as you are about this, I would welcome others giving input, even if it wasn't exactly what I had in mind. You seem to think that if an idea is brought up that is not exactly what you already had, that it is automatically inferior, and this isn't the only thread I've had that vibe from you on. Also, if something really is "utterly retarded", there are more polite ways of going about saying so. You'll get more people wanting to help with this project if you don't treat them like shit.
I'm sure I'm completely wrong and you'll have a great, demeaning retort for this, but I'm done on this topic, as I have no interest in helping or contributing any random off-topic utterly retarded meaningless garbage when you treat people like this. I probably wasn't smart enough to deserve to help anyway, so no big loss for the effort, right? Get over yourself.
Good luck to everyone involved in this project. Wait, isn't luck Bisqbot's job? :)
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Xebra, you are acting like an asshole, plain and simple. Who are you to command that the people who post in the topic you started must be of a certain knowledge in a subject before they suggest things? It doesn't take a specialization in college for people to suggest things that may be a good idea. Anyone who's not agreeing 100% with you is being met with your overly harsh criticism, demeaning, and taunting. Grow up. If you are "so tired of arguing with people that insist on talking about things they simply don't understand" then stop doing it.
Michael Fried wrote:
Maybe Bisqbot could evaluate each position like a chess program does.
I think this could be beneficial, but there would have to be a reliable way to determine the "point values" for each event. If the priority of those is somehow flawed, it could potentially create equally flawed results.
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xebra wrote:
I think the trick is not to prune at all but to just do what BisqBot does ... try lots of random paths for relatively short sequences! You guys need to stop taking this thread off topic, if you want to argue about random bullshit no one really knows about anyways, there is a thread for that.
I don't understand why you think eliminating invalid key combinations is a bad idea. It only needs to be done once for the game, regardless of how many different rooms you want to optimize, and the amount of processing time it would save I would think offsets the extra coding needed.
I also don't understand why you seem to have such an attitude toward people on this board who don't agree with your ideas. Everyone should be able to ask questions and give input without worrying about if you are going to jump down their throats.
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qbproger wrote:
Generating the entire tree for an entire game... you have what... 8 buttons and the possibility of not hitting anything, so 9 moves each frame. (I'm thinking brute force here)
Unless I'm misunderstanding how you mean "moves", there are more than 8 possible in a given frame, there are 2^8 = 256, since you can press more than one button on a given frame.
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Makou wrote:
Do a run made entirely, or even mostly, by a "bot," and you strip [the human element] away.
I agree, but for a different reason, I think. If I was working on the movie myself and incorporated a Bisqbot program to do as much optimization as is talked about here, I wouldn't be very proud of my result, but that's because to me, it's easy to press certain buttons on certain frames, but figuring out the path (the bigger picture) is what I enjoy the most when doing a TAS. Leave that to a computer to figure out and, well, I personally just wouldn't have as much fun with the process.
Plus, after watching the Zelda 1 movie, I don't think Bisqbot is going to make enough of an improvement to go through the trouble of organizing a big network of continually-updated random-searching optimizing source code.
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Lifted from a different thread:
Bisqwit wrote:
Not to imply anything, but somehow the value of posts like that decreases in my eye when both the praised and the praiser post from the same IP address.
Bisqwit tends to keep an eye out for stuff that could be possible signs of abuse, at least from what I've seen. I wouldn't think there also needs to be such a large hurdle to clear before one can vote (not that I know what it is). However, voting isn't imperative because it's a tool to help the judges decide what to publish rather than dictate it.
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That was a great idea in Shadow Man's level when you used your switch to Magnet Missles to avoid an enemy.
The only thing I noticed was in Spark Man's level, when falling down the big pit, you hugged the right wall. I don't know if this game has momentum acceleration like the Mario games do, but if it does, it may save a frame to stay to the left of that wall and press right as the earliest moment that won't have you hitting that wall.
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Yes, the delay only happens if you are changing into a different Mario form, but in the demos here, the delay is avoided even when going from Fire Mario to Cape Mario.
This tactic wouldn't be useful in a TAS very often, but it really "grinds my gears" that the place I could actually use an obscure glitch like this doesn't help, and instead it screws everything up.
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Here's an interesting bug I've found. Normally getting a feather causes about 30-40 frames of delay while transforming, while the game plays that sound effect that sounds roughly like seven cats fighting each other to the bitter death - reereeREEROEOAORAROAOAAA - back and forth in the left and right speakers. Well, I was playing Cheese Bridge from SMW and collected a feather above the screen and this delay was skipped (the sound effect remained, however). Here's a demo of the trick in Vanilla Secret 1 of SMW.
So on Misty Star World, you need to take the fire flower at least once in the level, and then take the feather back because flying is fast. Since it's an autoscroller, I had plenty of time to set up something, and this was the result - the game froze. Not completely, as I can still pause, and I would assume I could start-select out of the level had I already completed it, but frozen enough.
Why? I have no idea.
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Obviously this required a huge cache of knowledge about the SMB engine. Since I don't have this myself, I don't know what the hell is going on 80% of the time. It seems like many of the levels were designed with these glitches in mind, as I couldn't see a way to pass the levels normally.
Did 3-2 play itself automatically the entire time? I did enjoy that part.
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xebra wrote:
Can't you just dump a crooked cart?
I don't think this would work cuz for the trick, you only disconnect it for a small period of time.
I always wondered how the hell someone figured out that trick anyway.
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It's funny, just yesterday I thought about where I would find a screenshot of this to post if this topic was ever introduced.
Back when Killer Instinct had just come out in the arcades, I got a high score, and I put in J, for my first name, then just hit random buttons and moved the joystick, and ended up entering JXQ, which I thought sounded cool. It probably also helped that those letters are in a vertical row.
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Randil wrote:
If you don't see that box, I guess you still have have lurker status.
I think the requirements for voting rights were increased / changed. One of my friends I introduced to the site now has over 15 posts and has been signed up for over a month, and he still isn't able to vote.
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Spoony_Bard wrote:
Perhaps you could think about creating a seperate category for hacks, so that they're not mixed up with other games of the same system. So that all hacks are under one category, regardless of which system they're for.
I've always thought this is a good idea. It would relieve some of the tension between people who want TASed hacks published and those who don't. It would "allow" for more hacked games, which would make some happy, yet it would not "taint" the list of licensed games, which would make others happy.
I still think that having an "allow" list is a good idea too, though.
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I thought he meant 3 inputs altogether, not three buttons, just as an example.
As far as physics / brute force, an example of something that could throw it off is Mega Man 1. Before discovering all the ways to zip through the game, the solution of a room based on physics may not be even close to fastest. Another small example would be Chip & Dale's apple-glitching, which gains a bit of horizontal forward movement. Anyway, my point is that trying to lower the amount of search space and still have "trust" in the new narrowed brute force algorithm would require extensive game knowledge. Of course, this is the site for that :)
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Well thank you very much!
There's around 5 seconds of improvements that could be done to this video, but none of them are major changes, except for the jumping glitch through the first few levels.
I'd be really surprised if this run got a star, simply because this game is a hack and I'm sure it would put part of the community here in an uproar. The 120-exit run is turning out extremely well - it definitely shows off the game much better.
Thanks again for the comments!
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Some of the carrier levels are just impossible to get platinums on the first time around - the ones where you also have to push cement blocks into holes (that are impossible to rotate, now that makes about as much sense as a sliding dumptruck destroying...oh wait) or other non-building-exploding obstacles.
The level I'd want to see would be the Moon. I had a blast playing that level and I was able to get almost 30 seconds under platinum time after awhile, and I'm sure a TAS could cut much more than that.
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