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Maybe the subject of this thread should be changed to just "Super Demo World: The Legend Continues." I don't mind having both runs discussed here, as I'm sure we could probably accomplish more by bouncing ideas off each other. After all, the two runs have a little bit in common.
Fabian wrote:
I'd like to make some comments about it. You'll notice I grab a shell in both Misty Isle 1 and 3, losing a few frames. I feel the loss of a few frames here and there is very worth it to keep the movie entertaining.
I agree. I think it's good that it was noticed so early that this movie is going to need some extra entertainment injected into it at the expense of minimal frames. I like what you did with the shells.
Fabian wrote:
After I'd done the last room of Castle #1b as fast as jxq, I experimented 10 more minutes, and in the end that gained me a frame.
Alright! Frames gained are good. Coincidentally, I was watching your first SDW-15 run and noticed that you played that room differently than I did (you didn't let go of A during the flight), and so I messed around with that strategy and also gained that same frame before knowing you did the same. I'm keeping a log of ideas for my next SDW-15 run on a little web page I made here, for anyone who is interested.
Fabian wrote:
I miss out on an extra life, but we've seen Viper7 take billions of yoshi coins, netting him billions of extra life, right?
Good point. I've never been too big on coins or score as much as surprising maneuvers, myself.
Fabian wrote:
I didn't feel like doing any more work on Misty Isle 4 ever ever ever again
I'll take a look at that level to see if I can figure out what's causing the delay. If I can find it and fix it, I'll put up a run for it. If that works, I'll also try to hex-edit in your work on the #1 Castle, although who knows if I can get that to work.
On that note, warning to anyone planning on hex-editing. Make tons of backups. Make a new backup after each level, and make copies of runs before hex-editing them. When all done, replay your movie from the start to make sure there are no desyncs. Once the run worked / didn't, I deleted my savestates and re-saved things from the new movie I was using (whether it was the original or the hex-edited). But maybe I'm just paranoid.
I also put together some information about an overworld map route, which can be found here. I'd post it on the forum, but it's just a long text file. Let me know if there are any questions about it, or anything else.
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flagitious wrote:
I somehow missed all progress on it
I did this run in six days and didn't post until the end of the third day or so, so that's probably why.
Ah where did you hear about this new glitch.
VIPer7 mentioned that I may want to hold off on my run because there was a new glitch you had discovered, but that he was waiting for you to present it. But I already had most of the run done by that point so I just finished it.
I guess it is time I reveal it since it has been a several months since and I have not made any progress in redoing the run with it. I'll do that soon.
Yay!
Anyways very nice run, congratulations. I admit my lack of knowledge about this game prevents me from making any intelligent critique. Infact I feel guilty for not having played this game through because it looks very good.
Thanks! I'm glad you like it, being one of the experts on Super Mario World around here. And yes, this game is great. I suggest giving it a shot, it uses Super Mario World's engine to its full potential.
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TouchOdeath wrote:
I have read all posts and haven't found my idea anywhere. Since this site aims for the fastest possible time while being entertaining, why isnt entertainement measured? The speed of the movie is measured in time, entertainement on the other hand isn't measured at all.
How would you suggest measuring something that doesn't a definite value? As you said, time has seconds. I would say the voting system roughly tries to put things into a "yes" or "no" entertainment-wise, and the stars classify movies as "very yes" entertainment-wise.
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GWing_02 wrote:
if Cisco starts getting boring I might even work on this one during class.
Heh, "if"...
GWing_02 wrote:
That's not true. Bowser's castle has 3 exits. One unlocks Big Boo's world, one unlocks the backdoor star warp, and one leads to Bowser.
Do you mean Bowser's Star Warp? Because I can't find a way to walk from where Mario is to the Back Door without using the Star Warps.
Here's another thought - if Big Boo's world is completed with some of the game left, then maybe it's possible to use the special block that puts a key in the select-box to significantly shorten up some of the secret exits (like the Desert Pyramid, for example). Big Boo's place could be visited near any star road without too much delay. Although this may end up skipping some of the cooler parts of the game.
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From what I remember (thanks to my game genie) there are only 24 levels, and then they repeat. However, on the box to the game, it said 32, so I was surprised. Track 24 is a super-long 9(?) lap race, so it's a fitting finale.
I personally don't think this would make a great timeattack, myself, but you never know.
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Gorash wrote:
Would you at least do a 60 spot completion of the first level for comparison?
Playing on medium difficulty would probably be similar to your run. If I wanted to get the bonus level though, I'd need 85 spots, so then the run would be very similar to the one already there. Which way were you thinking?
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Fabian wrote:
So about the Star Worlds...
1. Finish Bowser Castle c (super secret exit)
2. Take the Backdoor Star to Star World
This unfortunately isn't possible. You can't access the BackDoor star unless you warp to it via that same star because the rest of the map isn't connected to it. You'll have to warp from Bowser's star, but everything else should work.
What I've noticed about this overhead map is that most worlds have two distinct paths to take. It may end up being faster to go through the game, completing only one of the paths (and its secrets), then doing the Star World and Big Boo's World, then warping back via Misty Isle Star and going through the second path of the game. This way would also let you end up at Bowser's World at the end of the run, so it wouldn't be a far walk to complete the game.
Gorling wrote:
Also, flying in castle #4 is prolly going to be a bitch
Yeah and about thirty other levels...yikes!
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Fabian wrote:
I hate flying already. I could easily see me losing interest in this very quickly now that I have that damn cape.
I hear you! As far as cape stuff goes, I'd suggest to check out the Mario Tricks Page to make sure you're up to speed with the goofy physics of flying. However, the jist of it that when taking off, the frame that you let go of -> (assuming that you are facing to the right) will determine your flying speed. One out of every five frames is your best frame, so you must test each of them and fly to a common point to see which one gets you there the fastest, using the frame counter. Things like pulling back to float slowly or bopping enemies will not slow your forward movement down, but diving forward has the potential to do so, since you have to press -> to dive. So, make sure that when diving, you hold -> for a multiple of five frames. This works because the one-out-of-five frame rule is cyclic, and so you are able to keep speed this way.
The best way to see what I mean is to fly at the beginning of some level, save the state, advance one frame with -> pressed, save in a different state, advance another with -> pressed, save a third...make five states in this way, and then fly to the end of the level with each of them. The difference in completion time is very surprising - nearly two seconds of difference between the best and worst frames in an average sized level.
Fabian wrote:
I'm not sure if I should do one or both exits in Misty Star World after that or if I should save all Star Worlds for later or whatever. Brainstorm away!
In VIPer7's SMW96 run, he did all the Star Worlds at once. This cut down on the number of star-teleportations he had to take on the world map. I'd suggest the same type of route here, although it isn't quite the same, since he had the star at the end of the Special Zone to put him back at Yoshi's house. Also, doing Misty Star World twice in a row will probably get very boring. Saving the Star Worlds for later lets you used the forced movement of completing them to play them in order for the regular exits, and then again for the secret exits.
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Wow, a platform timeattack that would be longer than some of the RPGs here. This would be a daunting task.
I'd be around to help with ideas. You've got 15 levels to watch anyways :)
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unless wrote:
I should also point out that both Umihara Kawase and Rygar have far, far fewer downloads than any other game on the starred list (Hitler No Fukkatsu is also an underperformer, probably because it's under the J name).
The downloads shown on the main movie screen can be a somewhat unreliable comparison to how popular the movie is, because when a movie is obsoleted, the count resets. Either that, or only 19 people have ever downloaded a Super Mario 2 run.
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I have watched my own run quite a few times and have made a list of possible improvements I'd like to implement in the next version.
General Improvements
I'd like to get 99 stars, if possible. Some levels give 14 stars at the goal post. If I can get this to work on five levels, then I can get 29 stars on the goal post in Water Star Road. 14 * 5 + 29 = 99.
I will try to get more coins / score in some spots.
Eliminate flying delays.
Add new glitch that is talked about earlier in this forum, once it is made public.
Map Route
It may be possible to take a different route to finish the game faster, but this is untested. The route in question is:
Misty Isle 1
Misty Isle 2
Misty Isle 3
Misty Isle 4
Iggy's Castle
Salty Isle
Desert World 1
Desert World 2 (secret exit)
Desert Secret (to get shell in reserve box)
Desert Castle (secret exit)
Desert Star World
And from here, following the old route.
If this route actually is faster, it would be kind of a bummer because Misty Star Road would be skipped, and it has some of the best stunts in the run. Also there would be new levels to optimize.
Misty Isle 1
Gorling & Fabian's first WIP starts the first level one frame earlier. Find out how this was done.
Possible frames gained: 1Misty Isle 2
Make sure that after sliding, right is pushed at first possible frame after koopa is killed.
I believe it's possible to get 14 stars at this goal post.
Possible frames gained: 1Misty Isle 3
Nothing I could spot at this point.
Misty Isle 4
Try to fly by last koopa and X button him, since stomping is not an option. Maybe with pirhana also, if this doesn't cause any slowdown that is.
#1 Misty Castle
Although I doubt it, see if regular flying is possible up to the gate. Also, try regular flying, landing, doing the jump-skip, and then spin-jump flying (although I don't think this works either).
If possible without slowdown, grab, kick, and re-grab the key.
Compare second room to G&F's run - he never descends during his spin-flight. Find out if this is faster.
Possible frames gained: 3~5Misty Star World
Run up first triangle later to expose a koopa, which can be killed later.
Get starman to bounce one more time by hitting the block at a different frame possibly. Possibly skip that starman and get the next one quickly.
Grab ice blocks after killing Chuck near the Banzai Bills.
Desert Star World
What does everyone think about flying over the whole level? Would this be overall better than stomping enemies and the brick lag? If not, try to stomp more enemies on the tops of the sand hills in the beginning.
Reduce lag in brick portion somehow. Also use lag to advantage. Make sure six actual frames pass before hitting left again.
Possible frames gained: 60~90Water Star World
Try skipping second-to-last star to make it possible to kill every fish, including the goofy sleeping one.
Get 29 stars here if possible to get 99 overall.
Kick P-switch to pipe only to regrab just before entering.
Crystal Star World
Decide whether killing the enemies here is worth the large amount of lag that is caused.
Possible frames gained: 30~60Sky Star World
Hit 2 more koopas in the first half of the level.
Try hitting the koopas just before the hidden coin blocks. (With X-spin if stomping is not possible)
See if it's possible to hit the second flying koopa in the second half of the level.
Ice Star World
See if getting a green shell and kicking it at the other koopas at the beginning will reduce lag.
See if getting a red shell and flying by the chucks, dropping it and regrabbing it on each one, will reduce lag.
Possible frames gained: 50~250Pipe Star World
Jumping out of the second pipe and flying may be faster than running off of it and flying.
Instead of flying up into a pipe, try landing and jumping up into it with flight, and flying after exiting the pipe.
Make sure that the key glitch cannot be done faster.
See if letting go of Y during second to last pipe reduces the lag.
Possible frames gained: ~10Bowser's Star World
So close to flying through the whole level. :(
In VIPer7's 96 exit run, he spin-jump-flies off the skull raft, although I tried and couldn't get it to work. Try harder to see if flying off of platform after pipes is possible. If not, see if jumping off skull raft starting from farther left on the raft is possible earlier.
Possible frames gained: ~2 (~3000 if flying is possible)BackDoor Star World
Try making it past more of the beginning spikes by flying, dropping and regrabbing key, and flying under them. Flight could possibly continue from there also.
A long shot, but try flying under the pathway to see if it's possible to go through the spiked columns.
Possible frames gained: 50~400Bowser's Back Door
Fly under the third jumping bowser statue if no delay is caused.
Do more at very beginning of Bowser battle than fly once and get hit.
Total possible improvements:
Fast flying correction: 60~120
New glitch: 60~240? (depending on if glitch applies to flying or not)
Level improvements: 207~817
Flying through BSW: ~3000
Total possible improvements: 327~1177 frames, which is 5.45~19.6 seconds.
If flying through BSW is possible, add about 50 seconds of improvement to that total.
Although I won't be working on this at the pace that I did the first run (my foot has mostly healed and I can return to the outside world finally), I'm still very interested in it.
Any questions, comments, suggestions, criticisms, compliments, etc. are welcome.
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First of all, thanks to everyone who has given feedback on this run.
Secondly, the run is improvable. (Just about every run here is probably improvable at least a little bit) I wasn't aware of the specifics of flying, which sucks because I read a lot of the forums about SMW before starting this run, yet I didn't check the Mario tricks page. I wasn't aware that SMW was added to it. D'oh!
That being said, I have some very specific questions about flying, and if anyone could answer them, it would be appreciated very much. Please don't point me to the SMW forum or the trick page, as I've read those completely now.
Assume I'm facing right.
I understand that releasing -> on the correct frame will give you maximum flying speed. I'm wondering what actions keep / detract from this maximum speed:
1) How long can I wait before pressing <- without losing speed? In other words, will holding Y and floating without pressing a direction cause my forward velocity to decrease, and if so, how quickly?
2) Will holding <- from the peak of my flight slow my speed? In other words, will holding Y and <- to float down VERY slowly also slow down my forward velocity?
3) How long can I dive without losing forward speed?
4) Does using the fast-dive glitch (pressing -> every other frame for 10 frames) slow my forward velocity?
5) Is there anything else that I should know about fast flying or flying in general?
EDIT: Went and found the answers to these questions myself by testing the game, so don't worry about replying.
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BoltR wrote:
Keep in mind there is a glitch to get extra height while flying, which flag used in the ghost house during his run.
I actually used that glitch almost every time I dove. In Desert Star World however, the repeated presses of right moved me down enough that the lift gained still didn't make it over the hill.
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GWing_02 wrote:
First, you dove a lot while flying - isn't diving slower than flying which is slower than fast flight?
I just did a little testing, and unfortunately this is true, which I was unaware of. Much of the diving is necessary anyway in order to get a high enough lift, but not all of it is. For example, it's avoidable in the first half of Desert Star World, but the level would be very boring. It's necessary in the second half to regain altitude after the bricks. On the other hand, a level like Sky Star World used the dive more than necessary. However, based on my tests, I would estimate the total improvement from this would be a maximum of about two seconds. Still, something to improve upon next time. Is there anything else I should know about the specifics of flying?
Also, to Xebra, is the flying what you meant by inaccuracy? I wasn't sure exactly what you were refering to, so if you could elaborate it would help me on future improvement runs of this game. Thanks.
GWing_02 wrote:
Second, there were some points where you could've easily gotten more coins/points with only minor adjustments, but you didn't, which I think is detracting. The first level comes to mind.
This is just a personal preference of mine that I just don't care about coins or score. Sometimes if a coin or maneuver was hard to avoid, I did that instead (like jumping through the green winged koopas in Misty Isle 2 without hitting any of them). Maybe in a future version I will focus on this more since I know the game better.
GWing_02 wrote:
I also liked the key glitch on pipe star world, mind explaining it?
First of all, to those who have not played this game much, the real way to get through this portion is to jump below to reveal hidden coin blocks that form a bridge, and then enter the nearby pipe to loop back around and walk across. I hit one of these coin blocks when jumping onto the key - they go all the way across.
I tried lots of ways around this, trying to bounce off of enemies, or bringing a shell and kicking it and bouncing off of it, but nothing kept me high enough off the ground to escape the hidden blocks. Mario can stand on a key without it moving from underneath him (so long as you don't pick it up), but the "key" to this was throwing the key at the ceiling so that when it lands, it bounces twice. Standing on the key during that first bounce and jumping at its peak is just enough height to clear the blocks. I grabbed the key while jumping just for show.
GWing_02 wrote:
Also again the controversy with last frame timing or last hit timing
I decided this as follows: I wanted to end the input as early as possible, while still getting Mario to the middle so that the feather would float through him after Bowser was defeated, but I only wanted to do this if it didn't cause a huge delay in the final hit. Bowser can only be hit 6 frames earlier than he is at the end of this run, so I figured it was fine.
GWing_02 wrote:
I expect that this movie can be beaten
Me too :)
Thanks to everyone who voted and commented!
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Sorry about that. Browser messed up the first time so I didn't think it submitted, and then I also fixed my word wrap and re-submitted, only to find that both submissions went through.
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http://tasvideos.org/797S.html
Enjoy!
Edit: Changed link to be correct. Double submission was fixed by Bisqwit and I forgot to change the number here as well.
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GWing_02 wrote:
maybe if you fly close enough to the lava at one point the game will think you're on the platform?
I hadn't thought of this, so I went and tried it out.
I flew as high as I could keep Mario visible on the screen on the lava hill, and went frame-by-frame to try and barely touch the lava, but all I could do was either catch more wind, or die in the lava. Bummer. I also tried somehow getting footing from the Blarggs (goofy red RAAOAOARR guys), but it didn't work, and all of them are at the bottom anyway.
I also messed around with L & R buttons, since they are camera related, but no luck.
GWing_02 wrote:
Oh, I have most definitely been beaten and put to shame if you got that far that fast. Maybe I'm just too much of a perfectionist. =P
Well I had surgery on my foot so this has been my agenda for about six days straight now :)
One level left!
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Here is how the level looks when you can see it.
I tried "landing" on the upper left wall there, and you can do it, but you lose your flying. I also tried walljumping off of it, which is also possible, but in that case, you don't gain footing as far as the game is concerned, so the screen still doesn't move (and I lose my flying).
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Ok I have just finished Bowser's Star World. I won't be putting up a WIP just because I only have two levels left and I'll have this movie submitted by the weekend. It's more exciting to see a run like this all at once, I think. But I'm glad there is interest! More than I can say for my other run so far...
I do have something I'll post. Here is a nice segment - but unfortunately, it's looking like I won't be able to use it in the run. Unless someone knows a way to trick the game into thinking that, while flying, you've gotten some footing without actually having to land or stop flight, which will cause the screen to scroll up to Mario's position. Or if anyone knows any other random way to make the screen scroll up to me, that would be great. There's no such thing as a stupid idea, so feel free to give suggestions.
The problem is that although I can fly above the screen, there is a limit to how far above the screen Mario can go. I can't pass that lava mountain no matter how high I fly with the screen that low. If I can get past that lava, the rest of the level would be a breeze, and a lot of time would be saved.
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VIPer7 wrote:
well maybe "ugly" is the wrong word to describe it :P
it's hardly visible if you watch the end-product... but it's absolutely impossible to recreate in real-time, and I don't really like this idea.
Hmm. Hopefully the new run is submitted soon, I'm curious :) Do you know or could you estimate around how much time it would save in SMW11?
VIPer7 wrote:
but I don't want to reveal it, flagitious found it out so he should also present it :)
Definitely. Respect for being cool to him like that.
VIPer7 wrote:
I guess the answer for the 11/15 question is quite trivial: Gorling accidentally called it an 11-level-run, because the shortcut version of Super Mario World only needed 11 levels :P
Thanks. I figured as such, but I'd hate to do the wrong path optimized the fastest!
I'm finishing Pipe Star World currently. I hope to have this run finished by the weekend.
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I have caught up from yesterday, and finished Ice Star World.
Viper7 wrote:
...a new sensational bug (well actually I find it quite ugly, but it's very time-saving)
Interesting. Is it comparable to the wall-push-through glitches of the Mega Man series? I'm still going to finish this run, but thanks for the heads up. I often enjoy the runs that aren't super-glitchy, if the game is entertaining in its own right - and this game definitely is.
Anyone have an answer to the 11 / 15 exit question?
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I have been working on this run for a few days. I had a pretty good WIP but a bad hex-editing experience has set me back a day's work. Hopefully I can recoup losses by tomorrow afternoon.
Also, I think that on the hex-edit page, it should be noted that loading a savestate you saved with a hex-edited run will reload that entire run, even if you overwrite your hex-edited run with a backup of your original. Stupid me.
Back to the run. It is turning out better than I could have ever expected, or at least it was until tonight's incident. I had just finished Crystal Star Road, but now I am back to Misty Star Road. Ugh.
ANYWAY I just had a question about the title of this forum - "11 exits"?
1) Misty Island 1
2) Misty Island 2
3) Misty Island 3
4) Misty Island 4
5) Iggy's Castle (secret exit)
6) Misty Star Road
7) Desert Star Road
8) Water Star Road
9) Crystal Star Road
10) Sky Star Road
11) Ice Star Road
12) Pipe Star Road
13) Bowser's Star Road
14) Back Door Star Road (secret exit)
15) Bowser's Back Door
Am I missing something?
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Do you mean Bowser's Star Warp? Because I can't find a way to walk from where Mario is to the Back Door without using the Star Warps.
Here's another thought - if Big Boo's world is completed with some of the game left, then maybe it's possible to use the special block that puts a key in the select-box to significantly shorten up some of the secret exits (like the Desert Pyramid, for example). Big Boo's place could be visited near any star road without too much delay. Although this may end up skipping some of the cooler parts of the game.
I tried "landing" on the upper left wall there, and you can do it, but you lose your flying. I also tried walljumping off of it, which is also possible, but in that case, you don't gain footing as far as the game is concerned, so the screen still doesn't move (and I lose my flying).
