This team fight was highly entertaining. Unfortunately, a run like this would be extremely difficult to judge compared to other runs for entertainment as mentioned.
The team combos are also awesome.
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From what I gather this goal of this run was to please the people who complained of repetitiveness in the previous run.
Acheron86 wrote:
would you have enjoyed this run if the previous "speed run" wasn't submitted?
The reason I'm comparing it the the previous run so much is that when I view this run, the entertainment it provides beyond the other run is really not that much more to me than beating it as fast as possible. The excitement of seeing the previous run beaten as fast as possible was not made up for by the somewhat more "entertainment" provided in this run in my eyes. So, yes, I'm using the previous run as quite a harsh standard.
This run provides okay entertainment, but I'd expect more entertainment to make it publishable, especially after (all but) rejecting the previous submission.
Probably almost half of this run had much of the same appearance as the previous run, which is why I'm somewhat "not in agreement" with this run being published over the other one.
Acheron86 wrote:
You're confusing me a bit by being anti-tournament-moves but pro-speed, when they're the same thing in this game.
Perhaps the tournament reference wasn't the best. I guess all I was trying to say is chaining hits together really doesn't really give me the "tool-assisted feel" from the run, because that is mostly what you see in unassisted play from high level players or perhaps my thought is better explained through training mode combos where the opponent doesn't DI. Perhaps this is somewhat unsubstantiated, I feel more strongly about the previous points in this post.
Acheron86 wrote:
would you have enjoyed this run if the previous "speed run" wasn't submitted?
The reason I'm comparing it the the previous run so much is that when I view this run, the entertainment it provides beyond the other run is really not that much more to me than beating it as fast as possible. The excitement of seeing the previous run beaten as fast as possible was not made up for by the somewhat more "entertainment" provided in this run in my eyes. So, yes, I'm using the previous run as quite a harsh standard.
This run provides okay entertainment, but I'd expect more entertainment to make it publishable, especially after (all but) rejecting the previous submission.
Probably almost half of this run had much of the same appearance as the previous run, which is why I'm somewhat "not in agreement" with this run being published over the other one.
Acheron86 wrote:
Getting the computer to do what you want makes for a more impressive-looking TAS for your average viewer
I can agree with this point. Perhaps 1 player vs 3 computers would provide more entertainment? I just don't feel that this run showcased the amount of entertainment that could be provided by a superplay of this game.
I enjoyed this 1 vs 3 by antdgar.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7otagizR3zk
Also, another thing definitely missing in this run is taunt cancelling.
(See 1:10) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tXIFPMb_Rlk&feature=related
Regardless of what I have to say, at this point it appears this run is liked much more than the other and it will probably be published.
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I'm voting No.
I preferred the other run. I think a "fastest" 1 player (as previously submitted), and a multiplayer playaround would make the best runs.
Why publish a slow run through of the extremely limiting classic mode when you could make the much more entertaining multiplayer free for all that many have mentioned?
Most of these comments are directed towards the community's voiced opinions and not towards Blaze's efforts. I appreciate the fact the Blaze has put together two high quality runs to attempt to get this game published, but it seems I disagree on the opinion of what should be published compared to many members of this community.
The stuff done with items was interesting at times. I guess what doesn't really impress me is the simplicity of comboing by one player in this game (especially perhaps with the limitation of using Yoshi).
EDITED OUT A BUNCH OF CONTROVERSIAL STUFF
I don't support this category for a run, and I wasn't really impressed with this run's "entertainment through speed tradeoffs" as compared to the previous run which aimed purely for speed.
The run was somewhat entertaining and somewhat fast, which to me does not make it a publishable "playaround" movie.
As I said, why publish a slow run through of the extremely limiting classic mode when you could make the much more entertaining multiplayer free for all?
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Yes vote.
I really didn't find the run to be extremely repetitive like everyone else says. There were enough variances in the strategies to keep me entertained.
(I have not seen previous runs of this game to compare to.)
There were a couple mildly questionable portions in this run, but I did not find them beyond reason. I believe computers can Smash Directional Influence, which may prevent them from getting knocked back as far in some of the cases specified. (I think?)
EDIT: I came to these further conclusions after more review. Break the targets and board the platforms are pretty boring to watch. A superplay needs to be multiplayer.
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This was at the end of that video description.
"This glitch does not work on the N64 because the N64 can't handle everything being loaded. Do not ask if this is possible on the Wii should it be released, because you can try yourself."
(He did it on one of the gamecube versions.)
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I have finally completed a full test run of this game. It has been my project on and off for the last month or so.
http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1135708483/Kirkq%20Bad%20Dudes%20Complete%20Test%20Run.fcm
Bad Dudes completed in 13:49, 37 seconds faster than TheAxeMan's test run from quite a long time ago.
I believe this is a submission quality TAS, but I know I can find more timesavers if I redo the run. I will start working on another run soon, and I plan to submit the upcoming run.
Comments appreciated.
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I watched some of the run.
It seems you do a lot of "Get from Point A to point B quickly.", whereas the goal should be to get there as fast as possible.
Many notable spots would be highly unacceptable in a run.
- Lining up the Bob-Omb for the Chain Chomp.
- Lining up the jump onto the top of Whomp's Fortress.
- Sliding far past the star in Peach's Secret Slide the second time.
- Going up the slope in Bowser in the Dark World.
If you were looking to do a high quality run, there shouldn't be these visible mishaps.
Also, you absolutely need to play in frame advance if you want a serious TAS. If I had to guess you either rarely used it or didn't.
Other than that, just strive to make sure every bit is as fast as you are feasibly able to do it.
All that being said, congratulations, you have accomplished more than I have using Mupen64.
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I hadn't played board games too seriously until I began college last year.
Favorites among my floor included Settlers and Carcassonne (which I haven't learned yet)
My personal favorite game would have to be Citadels. I suppose it's more of a card based game, but it's conceptually similar to a board game in my opinion.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citadels_%28game%29
Much of the game is based around guessing which character ability your opponents choose. Not all character abilities are in play, but you can target your opponent if you successfully guess which of a few characters they chose.
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I messed around with the save state a bit.
I'm not sure if anyone found this yet, but it's obvious if you were to test a bit. If you go upstairs to the king's room instead of going downstairs, the barrier tiles cause a similar effect. The messages in between steps appear to be shorter as well, but I'm not sure that the memory corruption has the same effect.
Also, most cases of saving/resetting the game turn one of your party sprites into a glitchy flashing TM sign, which I found humorous.
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Very cool find, hopefully there's some new glitches to be found. The teleport to Alefgard is a point of high interest. Good luck breaking the game further, and I await the future run.
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In any non scrolling/slow scrolling area (trains, bosses, etc.) the fastest method of movement is crouching followed by walking on alternating frames.
I remade the second boss fight, but there seems to be some set frame rule as to how fast I can complete this fight. I'm not sure if it's his vulnerability or his jump. I'm getting tired of the fight so I'll redo it if I make a publishable run, which I intend to do at this point.
This also shows off my new movement tactic at the end. ^_^
http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/926274445/Bad%20Dudes%20Stage%202%20New%20Kirkq.fcm
I'm currently at the third boss (not updating the WIP for a while). I will be able to kill him in three phases as opposed to 4 hitting him with dagger-dagger-flaming punch.
Another thing I found on GameFAQs: A charged punch charges while the game is paused, so I can pause with the boss in a better position while still charging my punch.
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Resurrecting an old thread.
I thought I'd have a go at this game since it appears to have been dropped for quite some time now.
I used TheAxeMan's test run and the comments in this thread to produce a test run of the first couple levels myself.
Level 1: I beat the test run to the boss by 25-30 frames, and the boss fight is about 2-2.5 seconds faster with a new strategy, and this strategy allows for far more entertainment.
EDIT: Level 2 Complete
Level 2: I show off a lot during the sidescrolling. About half a second was gained from killing the last blue ninja optimally to make the boss spawn faster. The boss fight is about 1.5 seconds faster with a new method. I actually improved this boss by ANOTHER 1.5 seconds on top of that, but I'll update that once I'm finished with level 3.
Other Stuff:
The run starts with a soft reset, as was previously suspected.
It is really hard to tell the fastest method of movement in this game. Double jumping may or may not always be fastest when applicable, but it seems you can only do it when an enemy is on screen and some other criteria I don't yet understand.
You can also high jump at any time, this seems to be a little slower. When you land from a high jump, you have to walk/stop for 6 or 8 frames before you can do another high jump. Sometimes you can instantly high jump after landing from certain jumps and other hits though, it's really hard to tell, but there's probably a few frame difference in some cases.
EDIT: I found a trick, I'm not sure how useful it is yet. If you high jump, land, and do another high jump as soon as possible, you have to hold up to keep the second high jump in effect. If you hold up for a bit and let go, you jump again in midair, I did this in the train level numerous times to demonstrate. I'm not yet sure how useful it is. It does not speed up time for normal horizontal movement.
I'll probably continue to work on this run.
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May I get opinions on whether I should continue working with this game or move on to another project?
I updated the first post with my latest progress. I'm about 12 out of an estimated 30 minutes completed.
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It's debatable how different the final product would actually look from a 120 star BLJ-including run of the same quality though.
I suppose it also depends on how badly mr_roberts_z happens to break some stages in the 120 star run.
I would enjoy seeing it, and it would possibly be a publishable category if the 120 star run gets too broken by BLJs.
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I watched the entire SDA run for nostalgia.
I think there are good arguments for both a 100% and an any% run.
Much of the SDA run just felt like walking from point A to point B avoiding all obstacles. I personally feel that a 100% run requires more ingenuity.
There are a couple stages that are bad for 100% such as Hard Coaster, but I think the number of improved stages outdoes this personally.
Both runs are worth considering though.
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Kirkq wrote:
A 100% run must take longer than an any% run to exist.
Sorry, you are correct. I meant "for both to exist"
In the case of MMX2 an any% run is a 100% run. The label is simply "fastest run" and no other categories exist. The aim is to beat the game as fast as possible, collecting all items is a side effect.
As with this Super Metroid run, collecting as few items as possible is again a side-effect of beating the game as fast as possible, thus low% is worth noting, but I don't believe it is actually the category of the run.
I personally think it's any% (glitched) with low% as a side effect.
Is this set in stone by the site already and we're all speculating, or is it something that we actually need to find a solution to?
In the interest of not posting too much, I'll add here that I agree with alden's post below this.
Xkeeper wrote:
The fact this argument is still raging on is just boggling my mind.
This seems like one of the quieter and more civil debates going on at the moment.
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I'm fairly certain this is the clarification of what each type of completion is.
An any% run beats the game as fast as possible.
A low% run aims for least items, especially in the case of Super Metroid where this percentage is definable and documented in game. A low% run can only exist if it takes longer than the any% run.
A 100% run aims to get all items, again Super Metroid states this percentage in game and it is a clearly definable category. A 100% run must take longer than an any% run to exist.
As I asked a few pages ago and moozooh responded. 6% appears to be the lowest percentage and fastest completion possible. Therefore utilizing this glitch, an any% run exists. The low% run specification is irrelevant because the game happens to be beaten as fast as possible and collects the least amount of items.
This run can be labeled "any%, glitched. (Going out of bounds was the criteria moozooh suggested to define this.)
As far as I was clear, the following runs could all feasibly exist. The nostalgia of some of these categories may or may not warrant keeping them around.
any%
any% (in-game timer)
any% (non-glitched)
any% (in-game timer)(non-glitched)
low% (non-glitched)
100% (non-glitched by nature)
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Is low%, real time the same as any% real time with this glitch, or can items be further skipped costing time?
Does it seem like going out of bounds will speed anything up in the 100% run?
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Blublu wrote:
It'll be fun to play when it comes out. In the year 2015.
Unfortunately this will be somewhat accurate.
Regardless, I'll buy this game the day it comes out, best news I've heard in days.
Diablo 2 was amazing until mass duping and hacked items a few years after release. =/
Here's the 20 minute video demonstration released a little over a day ago for those of you who haven't seen it.
http://www.gamespot.com/video/930659/6193136/videoplayerpop?
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JNX, I would like to voice that I appreciate the effort you put into this run. I did watch the whole run, and I enjoyed it.
Unfortunately there are many people on this site who have done extensive route planning and enough movement optimization to successfully do this run noticeably faster. They are waiting on the emulator upgrade before they take on the task, as they plan to spend a significant amount of time on it to make it as fast as possible.
I pretty much agree with what AKA posted. Frustration with the emulator and laziness are no reason for sub par execution at times.
As alden stated, the entertainment of the run already suffers from the amount of cut scenes and walking. I was left to look forward to some of the more notable glitches, and unfortunately the Temple of Time skip and the Gerudo Valley bridge trick were both poorly executed.
This site expects that you submit the best possible time using all known tricks and flawless execution. Unfortunately this run doesn't really meet those standards.
Vote: Did you like watching this movie? - Yes
However, I have to vote no on publication.
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Notice:
--- I have dropped progress on this run, most likely permanently.
--- I uploaded a condensed version of my test run here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0RRTGZFgPXY
Spindizzy Worlds is an action/puzzle game where you control a spacecraft to collect gems.
The game is fairly difficult to control in real time, especially since pushing "Up" actually moves you northeast, and maintaining control without abusing the brakes is fairly difficult.
A -"Accelerates"
B -"Brakes"
L and R change camera, it's really annoying, time-consuming, and hardly ever necessary.
Stages may require puzzles, collection of all items, or completion of all sub-rooms.
This game has a lot of opportunities to skip rooms and make shortcuts.
There are 23 levels on the hardest difficulty.
I would estimate a completed run to be about 25-30 minutes.
I have currently completed 10.5 Levels.
I wouldn't say the run is anywhere near frame perfect or submission TAS quality, but it's fairly close. I'm doing levels in order of preference at the moment
SMV (10.5 Levels):
http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/482693612/Half%20Pyramidia.smv
Level 1 - Beginners!
A fairly linear level. The second room wasn't too optimized, my apologies. You die if you fall any further than the two block distance down the tower. Yes you have to complete the bonus level.
Level 2 - Waterworks
To get to each gem you are supposed to go clear each room within each portal. I enjoyed breaking this level.
Level 3 - Tri Path
The weird blue squares are ice; they are hard to maneuver on. I pretty much skipped 95% of the level.
EDIT: Finished another level.
Level 4 - Frigia
The level is covered in ice. There is only one frame I can get on the yellow platform and maintain forward momentum. The bonus level does not end after collecting all the gems unfortunately.
EDIT 2:
Level 5 - Arrow Path
I didn't really spend time optimizing the arrows in the first room, as it will be fairly difficult to turn the corners minimizing collisions and keeping high speeds. The rest of the level went pretty smoothly though.
Level 6 - Roller-ama
This is another level similar to the first stage I chose to play. The room with enemies lags a lot. The bonus does not end after time runs out, so I show off a bit.
Level 7 - Ballrace
Yeah, I did two of the same style level in a row, sorry, my level choice is quite sporadic. This level provides a lot of shortcuts though.
Level 8 - Obelisk Run
A small note - All of the damaging messages only display once per game, I just happen to get a lot of them in this level for the first time.
EDIT 3:
Level 9 - RADIMA
I shouldn't have gone in to this stage after taking so much damage from the previous, but I only had to waste 10 frames or so.
Level 10 - Tower City
The large room lags plenty. If I decide to do a full game run I'll have to work on lag control, especially during wait times for platforms.
Level 11 - Pyramidia
I'm working to see if I can skip most of the second section of the stage.
I would really appreciate comments on my demo run. I'm putting a lot of time into it, and I would like to TAS the whole game if it is interesting to the viewers.
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AKA wrote:
I think SL did some testing on the 50 star door stairs to see if there of use for THI or SmL.
This was my main thought.
Also there are stairs in front of both THI and SmL. Is it possible to do a BLJ similar to the one done after BitDW in the 0 star TAS off of either of these?
I suppose I should get Mupen running on my computer this summer (in 2 days XD) if I keep coming up with schemes like these.
