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moozooh wrote:
I guess I don't have anything left to suggest because this looks perfect.
Thanks. The only thing I'm gonna do different this time is that I'm gonna try to get my hands on a Bone Pillar soul, which will be equipped when changing to Disc Armor.
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I found a 20 frame improvement on the Bone Pillar fight in the Study, so I decided to redo from there, given that the Lightning Doll got me nowhere. But I also noticed some errors in the Creaking Skull fight and was generally discontent with the level of luck manipulation in the earlier parts of the run, so I redid the entire run. I have saved 50 frames until the first Graham conversation, with a massive amount of tiny improvements.
Here's the WIP:
Pie
The bigger improvements really stand out, so hopefully I don't have to point them out. The smaller improvements consist of better stairclimbing and massive amount of glitched backdashes (not really sure if this is the correct term... maybe a slightly higher speed was intentional during a weaponswing).
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moozooh wrote:
Wow, glad my suggestion proved useful. Looks a lot more fluid now!
I expect over 15 seconds' worth of saving over Yrr's WIP by the time you finish Death. Can't wait. :)
Indeed, I never thought Disc Armor would save so much time O.o. The improvements are pretty apparent though, which is really cool.
It's really close to 15 seconds, assuming perfect delays for Lightning Doll and no improvement on Death, I will be 885 frames ahead. But Yrr did a slight mistake in Death's 2nd phase which hopefully might save a couple of frames.
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Finally got around to get the Disc Armor, the elevator was an excellent place to manipulate RNG. I'm currently 233 frames ahead of myself when entering the Lightning Doll room. Unfortunately I wasn't lucky this time around - the soul is nearly 40 random numbers away, which sucks ass. Gonna see if I can't do something about that without wasting too much time.
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moozooh wrote:
Is there any soul on your way that could kill the Kicker Skeleton faster? There should be enough time to get any if that allows you to kill it in time.
I ran a quick test and it is possible to have Werewolf connect with the breakable wall - it requires some very risky jumping at the spikes, but that's just funsies. Gonna check how much time it saves with the Werewolf soul overall.
I also found a funny route-change in the Floating Gardens. It saves 5 whopping frames. The downside is that you can only kill 1 Imp, meaning you lose 60 experience for 5 frames. Definitely not worth it. This demo is only 4 frames faster since I was lazy on the 2nd transition. And you can't kill the Cockatrice before the 2nd elevator, I checked.
Edit: Going for Disc Armor instead of Werewolf. Disc Armor is ridiculously fast and hits 3 times for higher damage. It's way better for breaking the wall aswell. And the Disc Armors can be petrified, saving atleast 70~ frames. Definitely the better choice.
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I just reached Death, 640 frames ahead of Yrr. I lost about 830 frames on the Kicker Skeleton, I wasn't strong enough to kill the Skeleton in time for the elevator. I also stopped to kill 2 Bomber Armors, to get level before Death.
WIP - Die
Backdashing up stairs is slightly faster on longer stairs, but slower on the shorter ones.
Starting to think that my 100% really needs a remake, there are seriously a buttload of improvements. Probably gonna do that sometime after this run. Also, getting Battle Axe is not faster on hard, since you have to pause one more time. I completely forgot that...
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Yrr wrote:
I meant that yellow Str +4 soul (Skeleton knight). Sorry, didn't remember the exact name.
- The first place which seems a bit unoptimal is the room, where you fall down (before the first Graham encounter). I think the horizontal distance travelled could be higher, if you jump a bit later, so you could leave the room sooner. Not sure about this one, but it seemed faster for my run.
- The other room is the one with the first Catoblepas. Again, not sure, but you leave the room by falling, so if you jump higher, your vertical speed is greater, making you reach the ground of the next screen earlier. Did you test that?
Oh the Skeleton Knight. Completely forgot about that one. Funny thing actually, I toyed around with the first Skeleton Knight for about a week, but eventually gave up - I never had the soul drop once. Then on the second encounter it dropped on the first try. Oh, the irony. Pretty sure it is slightly slower to kill this Skeleton Knight, but you get the extra experience for the exchange of a big heart, and I really didn't need it at the time.
I rechecked the fall before Graham quickly, both methods are actually equally fast. Originally I thought mine was slightly faster, but apparently not.
I also checked the Catoblepas room, any additional airtime only causes you to land later.
EDIT: I just finished everything up to the warp room. I'm now 687 frames faster than Yrr, turns out taking a left turn is much faster than going right after leaving the Study.
Pie
About the Winged Skeleton. Assuming perfect conditions (as in, no Winged Skeleton), it is actually equally fast to throw a spear on it as opposed to hitting in the air twice. Landing after a spell allows for a hit on the first possible frame, meaning you can turn around and hit at the same frame and then cancel it with a glitched backdash which is roughly 8% faster.
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Yrr wrote:
Some (relatively insignificant) stuff I noticed:
-A very minor thing: You equip Baselard before backdash. Why? Going to menu stops your movement for like 1 frame (but it doesn't really matter anyway).
-Wouldn't it be faster to get Skeleton soul at first occasion possible? You could move through the room where you finally got it faster. I am not really sure about this one though.
-You don't seem to optimize the go-up-stairs-technique, like I did. However, since you are ahead of me, it doesn't look like it made a difference...
-Few places seemed a little unoptimized.
Indeed equipping baselard outside of a backdash wastes 1 frames of movement, but it only sacrifices a small distance, not enough to warrant a full frame. I thought it would be fun to kill Zombies.
Skeleton soul? I assume you mean the Catoblepas, getting it on the second one is easier, since it leaves so much time for manipulation and getting the first one does really no difference - you still have to wait for the Minotaur soul so that you can enter the pause screen. The small distance traveled is not enough to warrant those frames back.
I'm not sure to what you are refering to regarding the stairs. The Merman Room might seem a little confusing, but I'm actually 1 frame faster there compared to my 100%, disregarding the first half of the room.
I use the same stairclimb as Klmz and it indeed is slightly faster than the 3 jump/3 wait climb.
Would you mind specifying the places which feel unoptimal? I would like to recheck to see if there are any loose frames. Although I have this awkward feeling any single frames will work against me on Great Armor.
Also, I redid the Great Armor death scene, and saved another 8 frames. Apparently, doing backdashes causes huge amount of lag, so I avoided that as much as possible.
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Well, the soul-collect message is up for around 60 frames, and switching to imp takes 60 frames. Well, given that we are switching to the Imp, we have to switch back to whatever guardian soul, so yet another 60 frames. So unless it saves more than 180 frames, I believe we won't see this happening. Sadly, the drop rate for Laevatain seems to be roughly 0.2% or something like that, so saving 180 frames is not impossible. Still, there is really no excuse to get imp just because the manipulation is hard.
Anyways, I redid the Great Armor fight, and saved 15 frames, putting me 242 frames ahead again. That means I gained back all the frames all lost while gathering experience and a little more. Awesome.
There is little to no delay - I noticed that you can manipulate Great Armor decently with backdashes. He is still pretty damn random.
The inconsistent movement after his death is to avoid lag, which saved a lot of time, gonna toy around and see if I can't avoid more lagframes.
Pie
It is unfortunate that you cannot finish your run. Luckily, I'm a very bored person, so I should finish pretty soon. Sadly.
Anyways, it seems that Kicker Skeleton is about 45% faster than the backdash cancel. It takes roughly 630 frames to get the Kicker Skeleton, so yeah, definitely worth it.
I'm also thinking of killing the Flame Demon twice, for a Laevatain. I doubt I'll ever be lucky to get it with awesome delay, it was extremely hard even with the Imp, but let's see what I can muster. Revisiting the room is faster than getting the one in the Arena, no doubt.
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moozooh wrote:
Ah, so it wasn't for the fact of extra experience but rather because you just shuffled the RNG to a more acceptable number?
Pretty much. I believe entering the room ~70 frames later, due to the level up screen, made him very happy or something (entering rooms later can sometimes change the loottables). Great Armor has always been a major pain in the ass - he never really seems to make any sense. Sometimes when adding hits, the soul drops later, or even sometimes not at all. Here, by adding 1 hit and moving backwards very very little, I managed to save 3 frames. But when adding 2 hits, the soul doesn't drop at all. Makes perfect sense.
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klmz wrote:
Joking aside, have you ever seen the mysterious "shortened invulnerability" glitch mentioned in my post? I can swear that I once recorded it occurring, replayed the movie to verify it, but then overwrote the only movie along with the relevant savestates by mistake.
I have not. I once thought that wobbling removed single cooldown frames, but it turns out I was hitting a monster with 2 hitboxes and the weapon was just connecting on different parts.
Regardless, I redid the whole Study to get some extra experience to get level before Great Armor. It payed off nicely, I got his soul after very little delay. In the end my 241 frame gain turned into 227. :<
Well, the extra experience I got set me about 10 frames back. I got the soul from the 2nd Catoblepas instead of the first one, to avoid delaying for the soul-travel.
Battle Axe is not better on normal difficulty, it does 51 damage while Combat Knife does 31.
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klmz wrote:
You almost woke me up.
Well, almost good morning to you :3. Though I have to say it is a little peculiar that you typed this in your sleep.
The idea was to check if Yrr was still working on his warpless any%, he does not seem to be, but one can never be too sure.
At the moment I'm working on Great Armor, I enter his room 241 frames ahead of Yrr. Gonna WIP as soon as I get his soul with acceptable delay.
Also, I'm wondering if Kicker Skeleton is worth getting as early as I do in my 100%... I'm gonna check and see how much faster it is compared to the Catoblepas movement, it does allow for a different Guardian soul, which is always a huge bonus.
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I've casually started toying around with the warpless any% and I just finished Manticore. I'm roughly 160 frames ahead of Yrr, many of which come from not using a third pause-screen - there is no need to equip Combat Knife so early.
Here's the WIP:
Pie
I recorded it on VBA v22, but it seems to sync on other versions aswell.
This is more of a wake-up call, really. If Yrr is still working on this then I'm going to do a Dawn of Sorrow all-souls run instead.
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You have roughly 120 frames (time it takes to switch to Arc Demon) to manipulate 10 Mind Ups from I believe 11 enemies (cannot remember if there were 3 or 4 Tiny Devils), 7 of which are Bone Pillars, with lower than average droprates.
You still have to take damage from Legion, even if you're using Mind Ups; you somehow need to make it through Legion, or else he will start moving upwards along the wall.
But assuming 5 Mind Ups makes it a little more plausible. Although you will only have 60 frames to toy around with. Call me pessimistic, but I'm really not sure - never seen any of the said monsters drop a Mind Up during the making of this run.
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I've actually had half a mind improving the old warpless any%, unless Yrr is still working on it.
Also, it has come to my attention that VBA v20 kinda fails when it comes to emulating the introlag... the VBM seems to sync fine on other versions though, luckily.
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klmz wrote:
* You neglected some flaws that had been spotted back in your WIPs.
* Luck manipulations in this run were not optimized. For instance, you should have manipulated Legion to get close to the door (I'm sorry about having failed to spot it back then).
I wonder whether you could have got a sub-27-minute movie if you hadn't "traded speed for entertainment".
I re-read all the messages we exchanged, and I could not find any examples regarding the first point. Although you did mention something about a different backdash movement in the Buer-shaft, which I failed to pinpoint.
Indeed, manipulating Legion closer to the door would make me reach the door faster - I still would have to wait for it to open :3.
Not sure about getting sub 27... the Claimh Solais costs about 2300 frames to get, but we're forgetting that it does save time in Chaos.
gocha wrote:
According to the movie's timestamp, you made this run in two months, right? I'm so surprised :o
Indeed =P. Progress fueled my motivation, I thought this run was extremely fun to work with.
About the cutscenes - they vary in length but you could say a cutscene is about 1500-2500 frames long. This is indeed _extremely_ boring to watch, so playing this from SRAM was a natural choice. I'm not quite sure how many cutscenes there were... there were a few short ones, especially the ones during Graham and Julius, but I believe they should rack up to about 12000 frames.
Edward_Tohr wrote:
Getting the ghost soul.
...
Getting three souls in one attack.
Indeed I believe we all have this one soul we spent a really long time on. I believe mine was Axe Armor, unassisted that is. The really cool thing about the Creaking Skull swipe that got me the Ghost soul is that the Zombie Soldier also drops a Combat Knife, but weirdly the item-get screen disappears awfully fast - I believe this is because the Ghost soul drops.
I'm not sure about this 3 souls in one attack thing. Are you refering to Altair/Ripper, since that's only 2 =P.
arflech wrote:
Anyway I hope the submitter can hex-edit the submission to start from power-on instead of reset
I'm not really following here, playing from SRAM is the one of the fundamental ideas behind this run. Unless I've overlooked something?
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Eye Of The Beholder wrote:
Also it will create a lot of confusion if a glitched obsolete the 100% run, people will say that if that happened so the Glitched any% have to obsolete the genuine any% too.
Hopefully not. There is a difference between a 'Glitched' 100%, and the NBMB; the NBMB falls apart completely without the Mother Brain skip, while the Mother Brain skip in the 100% is only there to save time.
Also keep in mind that a 100% needs to fight all statue-bosses, making the Statue Room skip pretty useless.
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I vote yes for X-ray.
All 100% runs thus far have already shown how the game is supposed to look, why bother doing it again. Following this logic, skipping the Spore Spawn and Torizo should not be allowed, and rescuing the animals would be mandatory.
Tourian has, due to it's endless amount of waiting scenes, always been a huge turbobutton-fest. None of it is actually fun watching. X-ray would most likely change this bad trend.
Let's be rational. X-ray has only 3 _very_ useful applications, and none of them are that terribly long, compared to the Statue Room skip anyways.
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NameSpoofer wrote:
Demented rabble
If you don't understand the question, then don't answer.
You managed to completely avoid all the points I brought up by spouting meaningless self-glorification. Seriously, what are you doing?
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NameSpoofer wrote:
Comicalflop wrote:
The only noticeable difference in this compared to other runs is the boss fights, and this contains the slowest boss fights of any run. I had to hold turbo throughout the entire ridley and mother brain fight just to get through them.
Yes, you had to hold turbo. I didn't.
Please realise you created this run for others, not for yourself. This is in no way your achievement alone; your work has been derived from someone who has done it before, thus the list of people who have helped you create your run, without actually working on it, is pretty long. Try to be humble.
NameSpoofer wrote:
Comicalflop wrote:
The game all looks the same! I have never played it before! I can't tell if you did one segment 1 frame faster!
Why exactly would the general viewer care about 1-framers..?
You're forgetting the fact that we're all TASers, not just the ones who play Super Metroid. We all strive for perfection; single frame timesavers do matter.
NameSpoofer wrote:
This run is the most optimized run created so far, with no known improvements
That is to be expected, so I doubt you need to include that in the submission text. I even told you to remove this line, considering that people will be bothered by it.
Also, did you test the improved Phantoon fight with just 1 missile pack? And what about the new Big Metroid skip? I think it's very arrogant to say that you're going to skip testing it because you don't think the run will be published, especially when stating that this is the best optimized run so far.
NameSpoofer wrote:
While they did an amazing job, they rushed the last part of the run, leaving quite a number of frames behind. The route flaw is also worth mentioning here.
You rushed your run too, leaving 'quite a bit of' frames behind in the escape.
This 'route flaw' is just a blind assumption, without any regards to refills. I'm willing to accept this improvement as soon as I've seen it in action. Other than that, we did assume it to be slower because of several slowdowns in both LN and Norfair. Saying that it's 3.5 seconds faster not regarding other factors is just stupid, and I'm surprised you even mentioned this even after we've talked about it on MSN.
Cpadolf wrote:
Comicalflop wrote:
So the power ranger's recent any% doesn't deserve a mention?
No, this run is faster in several comparable places.
No? Why, thank you.
Did you even read our submission text?
Cpadolf wrote:
I think every TASer has shared all his finds with the rest who have had use for them.
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A new strategy for the Big Metroid has been found, skipping the spark and using a new method by running inside the Metroid without getting caught was abused. This new method has yet to be optimized fully, but it has saved 77 frames thus far.
Pie
Requires the Wave Beam and the Speedbooster, needs to be tested if it is possible without the Wave Beam. And if that works, without the Speedbooster.
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Tub wrote:
Could you please explain why your strategy is faster?
Sure.
If you check regular Kraid battles, just when Kraid is shot for the first time, you can see him open his mouth slightly, then close again, and reopen in about a second. This was probably added just for the looks or something. Weirdly, in this little 'state', it still counts as if his mouth is 'open', thus making him vurnerable to damage. Initially we thought this would only save the time of firing a missile/super missile, but Kraid reacted in a very weird way when he was shot during this 'state'; instead of reclosing his mouth to reopen in roughly a second, he went on to open it completely. That's the idea behind the improved kraid fight. I haven't checked, but it might be faster than the plasma beam version aswell.
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Nach wrote:
I have a question regarding the route. Has the difference in time been tested between getting the energy tank outside the speed booster room and getting the energy tank by Ridley?
I realize getting the energy tank by Ridley means you can shinespark through the next room, but it does mean time wasted just waiting until the doors can be opened, and going into the next room, and then scaling the wall, instead of just shooting and jumping up by the speed booster.
While it is a good idea, sadly the energy tank outside of the speedbooster is a missile pack =/
