Posts for Lobsterzelda


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Lobsterzelda
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With regards to the game being a frustrating game, are you talking about Tapper or Road Runner? I'm assuming for the movement that you're saying if you repeatedly press up or down for one frame, followed by releasing for a frame, then you won't lose speed, but if you hold up or down for a certain number of frames in a row, then the road runner does lose speed. Is that what you're saying?
Lobsterzelda
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In response to your shorter reply, I will aim to make my reply even shorter still! As far as Tapper goes, you shoudn't have brought it up willingly if it was a weak example of a TAS. You can't say "This is a good high-quality TAS" and then when told it wasn't very entertaining to watch, just say "I was only joking. Of course the TAS was bad." Also, I told you that I played the game before in RTA to see how difficult it was to a casual player. Actually, before I did the first level of the TAS, I timed a TAS going through the level 3 different times: one with basically just running left and minimal jumping, one with going through the level holding left and jumping constantly. And once with moving up and down around obstacles in lieu of jumping. I got a time that was one frame slower with moving up and down. I figured that moving up or down was probably either slower than running or the same speed, so just in case there was a small time loss associated with it, I decided not to do it. In retrospect, I probably just had a frame of not holding left somewhere in the middle, since that sometimes happens when you try to drag an input over a lot of frames. I'm not really sure what the address of the Road Runner's speed is, and it would be hard to find if the Road Runner moves at a constant speed (since it would basically just be a boolean at that point). Tbh, I think this game as a whole could possibly make it into moons, the more I think about it. However, to be a moons TAS, it would probably have to be a playaround rather than aiming for fastest completion. In the meantime, i'll incorporate the level 6 improved movement and the jump at the end of the game to save input frames, and then i'll see if people like this TAS or not. Mainly, I want to find out if people would prefer a playaround TAS or a fastest completion TAS. I could also aim for high score, though I doubt anyone really cares about that. Once I get some feedback, i'll adjust accordingly. Either way, with what I know now, I could add in grabbing the bird seed without losing time.
Lobsterzelda
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What a wall of text! Where should I even begin? Let's see... For one thing, Tapper is hardly a good example of superhuman input. It's a boring to watch TAS, which is only superhuman because of the fact that it moves up and down faster than a real person with an atari 2600 joystick could. By that token, a game that was just 10 minutes of frame perfectly alternating up and down would be a technical masterpiece and a super human TAS. With regards to you calling me darling, its not doing much to show that you aren't condescending, but I don't have more to say in reply to that tbh. I'm not really sure what you're talking about when you say that this is static. Frankly, I don't know what that means, though it sounds like a subjective scale that you're describing. Possibly it means something like how much movement there is, but i've never heard anyone use that term to describe a TAS in either a good way or a bad way, so i'll ignore that for now and wait for you to explain what that means (as I assume you probably will in your next post, since this thread is showing no signs of dying). As far as the game being hard goes, that is based on what I have gathered from watching other people play the game and reading reviews of the game, which list it as a relatively hard game. Playing this RTA on my own also showed that (with the exception of the first 2 levels) the game is somewhat hard to play fast. A TAS makes it easy since you know where all obstacles are, but in RTA, you have to keep slowing down to avoid Wile E. Coyote entering his roller skate mode unless an obstacle is near, or you can go fast and hope that you land in a perfect path to an obstacle, which is easier said than done. When Wile E. Coyote catches up to you, the only way to avoid dying is to run circles around him to try to create seperation between you two (provided there is no stage hazard or bird seed nearby) Ex. see 7:00 in this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JhQgEarNiMc Personally, I consider it to be entertaining to see how little a TAS can do to beat the game in the fastest time possible. I suppose you could call me something of a minimalist (though I'm sure you're just going to reply saying I did that because I'm either lazy, rushing, bad at TASing, or some combination of the three). If you want to see somebody run all over the place to beat the game, you can watch a real person play the game. A TAS is a machine. It should be able to be perfect. I admit, this is somewhat of a subjective thing, and some people might prefer for TASes to instead be more complicated. I consider it a difference of opinion, and truth be told, some games sit at different ends of the complexity vs simplicity tradeoffs in terms of what makes for the "best" TAS. When you say I learned something the day I submitted the game, I'm really not sure what you're talking about. What's "It"? What did I learn? You say that I lied because I called this an entertaining TAS, which I find kind of funny for something so subjective of an opinion. Also, if this is being accepted to the vault of Atari 2600 games, trying to compare the entertainment value of this game to that of the moons of Atari 2600 games is irrelevant. With talking about the game having a TASvideo publication on it, I'm referring to the fact that this game deserves to be on TASvideos. I'm not claiming that my movie is the only possible movie from this game that could have been on the site, or that the movie I made was low quality but should be accepted because the game is good. You talking about me canceling two other TASes is somewhat of a low blow, which doesn't relate much to this TAS. The first one I canceled (Pitfall!) I canceled because the amount of time it would take to simulate through all outcomes in a run with deaths (which was different than what I had originally intended to submit) would be so long that I'd probably need to make a program to simulate it, and with how long that would take, there's no need for it to clog up the workbench in the meantime. As far as the Smurfs TAS goes, I canceled that to make a collaborative TAS with ViGadeomes, who was coincidentally also working on that game as well. The TAS is actually pretty much ready to be submitted to the site tbh, but at this point were waiting to look for further optimizations. After this, we'll submit it. Well, that just about wraps up my wall of text. My hope is that your reply will be shorter than this, and then my reply to that can be even shorter still, because these replies take way too long to write, and on a site dedicated to TASes, who has time for that? :P
Lobsterzelda
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Spikestuff wrote:
Ok if you're going to play like that. Level 1 - Just tap up left for 2 frames to avoid all traffic. Level 2 - Play as normally, jump when needed. Level 3 - Avoid Traffic as the norm and direct Wile E. Coyote into the mines/traffic. (btw you show the line to take) Level 4 - Jump over instances of Bombs and Bullets. Direct Wile into them. Level 5 - Copy and Pastes Level 3 Level 6 - Take your time, back up a bit... also your input is slow here. <3 -- Distance yourself correctly from the boulders that impede your path and get the optimal movement to not stand there for too long. Level 7 - Copy and Pastes Level 3 Level 8 - Copy and Pastes Level 4 Very simple stuff for a speedrun, and RTA. And thank you for telling me to go over the input and checking it myself, it was great to find out that your input is suboptimal on something that's basic for a TAS level. Really, thanks for that. Here's what it looks like (Left is adjusted, Right is you): (Focus on the mountains in the back for position location, if you can't spot it I have uploaded the higher rate version, as the gif above is half the rate.) Or do you want me to push further and go through every, single, boulder, you stopped for and see how many frames were wasted?
Lobsterzelda wrote:
Why do you care?
Spikestuff wrote:
The input shown is something so basic that a casual player can do it, go for the Jazz of grabbing those Bird Seeds.
You asked for enjoyment in your submission text, I told you why it's not enjoyable and the chance for a little spice up, a little zest, but you pushed. Have a nice day~ ❤.
I've still yet to see either a speedrun from you beating the game in under 7 minutes or a video of somebody else beating the game that quickly. As such, you still haven't established how feasible this is for a person to actually do in real time beyond just listing a route through the game. With regards to the level 6 input, I can improve that section to remove the time loss from it. Personally, I think that you don't think this game is suitable for a TAS anyways. If it were accepted it would be vault only, which renders picking up the bird seeds a null point. I'm not really sure why you feel the need to be so condescending and rude. With the exception of level 6 (which I can and will fix within an hour or so after I wake up tomorrow), the run contains no slow sections or timelosses. Besides, as far as Atari 2600 TASes go on this site, I find this pretty entertaining. Compare this game to, say, Riddle of the Sphinx or Frankenstein's Monster. Does this game deserve to have a vault TAS made of it less so than those games? Would you prefer playing those games to playing this game?
Lobsterzelda
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Spikestuff wrote:
Lobsterzelda wrote:
Also, grabbing the bird seeds would slow me down because I would have to move up or down to grab them, which is why I don't bother to grab them.
I'll let you on this little secret. I wouldn't write something unless I attempted it myself. I exited the first level the same time you did, whilst going for bird seeds.
I suppose that depends how out of the way you are going for each bird seed. Regardless, you wouldn't have enjoyed this TAS even if I collected all of the bird seeds in the game, so why do you care?
Lobsterzelda
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feos wrote:
This one? http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/55268028583567066
Yes, that's the new movie. Sorry I forgot to post the link to the userfiles video.
Lobsterzelda
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Spikestuff wrote:
>Literal Auto Scroller >Doesn't Put Effort in grabbing the (Free) Bird Seeds. This TAS has so much down time, almost 6 minutes and 45 seconds (yes) and you did nothing with it. I'm voting No, even if there was effort to actually grab Bird Seeds, that'd at least change my vote from No to Meh. The input shown is something so basic that a casual player can do it, go for the Jazz of grabbing those Bird Seeds. Edit: Also here's better ending input that incorporates jumping at the end to save more frames than what the author provided. (Sub: 149 frames | Userfile: 28 frames)
This isn't an autoscroller. The screen doesn't move until you reach the left end of it. It only looks like an autoscroller because I never stop moving. Also, grabbing the bird seeds would slow me down because I would have to move up or down to grab them, which is why I don't bother to grab them. This game is not at all easy to run for a casual player. In fact, it's one of the harder games on the Atari 2600. It only looks easy here because of the fact that this is a TAS. If you believe that this TAS is something that a casual player can easily do, then I implore you to try beating this game in under 7 minutes (or even under 7 and a half minutes for more leeway) and see how that goes.
Lobsterzelda
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Whoops. I accidentally uploaded the version of my TAS that I used to make my encode, which has blank frames at the end. I've uploaded the correct version of this TAS to userfiles here http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/55272429385645741 . If a judge could replace my submission with this movie (which has trailing blank frames removed), I would greatly appreciate it.
Lobsterzelda
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I uploaded a fixed input file to the userfiles section of the website which ends on the last input.
Lobsterzelda
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I finished making an updated TAS that includes dying twice to skip waiting. However, the two points I chose to die it were different than in FractalFusion's TAS, which I thought would let me save time over his TAS. However, to my surprise, when I finished the run I finished again with a 1:42, except that this one was a few frames slower than my original TAS which had no deaths! The reason for this is likely due to the fact that dying in one screen at a certain point can cause an unpredictable amount of time gain/loss later on, since its possible that a certain death could save 10 seconds at the time compared to not dying, but within 5 minutes could be 10 seconds slower due to missing several cycles on vines as a result of the death. As such, of the 30 or so possible spots where Pitfall Harry is moving to the left and has to wait for a vine or hole to dissapear before continuing, some combination of 2 of those deaths will be faster than all the other ones. To actually figure out definitively what the fastest places to die are by trial and error would be extremely tedious and error-prone, since it would involve dying on almost 30 screens, playing through most of the remaining game, and then dying in one more spot, which would take 30 squared (or 900) total attempts to find. In order to find the optimal solution to this problem without spending 8 months TASing this game, I have come up with an idea. My plan is to make a program that simulates the physics and movement of the game, and then allows for different routes to be tested to find the fastest route through the game. This would be similar to what was done for the TASes of Arkahnoid and Kuru Kuru Kuruin. The rough outline of the program that I am planning to build is as follows: 1. I am planning to code the program in C++, though I could also make it in Java or Python if other people want to contribute and prefer coding in those languages. 2. The program will have an object of type room, which stores a pixel map of the layout of the room, and the locations, types, and numbers of the objects in the room. The room object will also have variables that keep track of how many exits the room has, and if the room has a below-ground portion or not. Additionally, each room's exit will have a link to the room that it leads to. 3. There will be a Pitfall Harry object that has certain basic attributes, such as the pixels that make up his position, what screen he is on, where on the screen he is, and what state he is in (ex. jumping, walking, taking damage, falling etc.). 4. Each of the hazards will be represented by a 2D array of pixels representing their collision, and in the case of the vines, where they can be grabbed from. Each object will store its starting location/state on power on, and will move according to the properties of that type of object. 5. An array of 255 rooms will be used to simulate the game's map system. 6. A PlayGame object will be made, which will contain functions to try to find the fastest path through the game. There will be a fastestRoom() method which finds the fastest route through a room at a particular moment in time. This function will need to have certain logic programmed into it, such as jumping off of ladders being faster than jumping over them, stopping before a pit if there is no way over it instead of running into it, and running forward when it is possible to do so without hitting a hazard. 6. A PlayGame object can also have a route selected, whereby a user selects what order they would like the rooms of the game to be traversed in. 7. PlayGame will call fastestRoom() for each room once a path is selected, and will test through all 900 or so possible iterations of places where Pitfall Harry could die, and will return which 2 rooms should be died in to yield the fastest time for the route. For some of these things, I will be able to program them on my own. For other things, there are certain pieces of information that I would need to get from someone else to be able to simulate it properly. For example, I would need to know how many pixels wide each screen is, what the dimensions (in pixels) are for each object, what speed Pitfall Harry moves at (for each of the possible states he could be in), and what speed each object moves at in each point in its cycle. However, I think that doing this is the most logical way to make an optimal TAS of Pitfall!
Lobsterzelda
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Based on what I saw in that thread, I'm going to update my movie to incorporate these new strategies. I should have an updated movie finished sometime later today.
Lobsterzelda
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Looking through Douglas Korekach's (the person who claims to have gotten a 1:42 in Pitfall!) scores, a few odd things jump out at me. For one, in a lot of his games, he sets a world record that is 5 times more than the next closest person to him. For example, in the game BeamRider, he claims to have gotten a score of 999,999, which puts him well above the next highest score someone has gotten in the game, which is about 200,000. It's worth noting that Todd Roger's was tied in first place with him for this game until Todd Rogers was banned from Twin Galaxies. In Solar Storm, he has a high score of 12,620 points, which is more than 6 times higher than second place. This is not to say that he couldn't have finished Pitfall with a perfect score and 1:42 left, but with no video evidence and so many claims of extremely high world records, I am taking his claim with a grain of salt until I can see a video of somebody beating the game that fast.
Lobsterzelda
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DrD2k9 wrote:
I was wondering when someone (besides me) would get around to doing this game. I had started a TAS of it a while back and, frankly, got bored making it so I gave up. As far as entertainment....it's too repetitive to be entertaining to watch. Pitfall was always one of those games that was more fun to play than watch, so moons/stars is out of the question in my opinion. While I feel this run could potentially be matched by a human, I feel it should still be vault eligible. The game has, in fact, already been beaten with a final remaining time of 1:42 by humans (see here). These runs also include perfect scores, not sure if the actual gameplay is slower than this submission or not.
Is there still a video of that run? I want to time it to make sure that this run is faster. Also, it strikes me as odd that he finished with both a perfect score AND 1:42 remaining, since this means he would have lost a half second every time he went down a ladder, but still finished with the same in-game time as me. I wonder if there's a different route that he used for his score? To my knowledge, this is considered the fastest route through the game, but I'm no Pitfall! expert, so I could be wrong.
Lobsterzelda
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I just watched the longplay play through. Having seen that, I would say that this TAS shouldn't be published just yet. The game contains 4 loops, with increasing difficulty per loop, but this run only shows one loop. Also, the first loop has almost no enemies compared to the 2nd 3rd or 4th loop, meaning that skipping them omits a huge portion of the content that this game has. I think this is a good game for a TAS, but I don't think it should be accepted until all 4 loops are TASed.
Lobsterzelda
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I voted yes for this one. I think that as far as Atari 2600 TASes go, this is relatively entertaining. Most Atari 2600 TASes are just the same 7 screens repeating over and over for 10 minutes. I like that this game cuts to the chase by just going through 7 screens and then beating the game, while also being a platformer. I think this would make a good addition to the vault's small collection of Atari 2600 games. Btw, on the second screen of the game, what's the purpose of the first jump you do before jumping over the fence? Is that faster than walking forward and jumping over the fence?
Lobsterzelda
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So I just played through the game on easy mode. There are two important differences between easy mode and the other 2 modes of the game: First, the hyenas in easy mode die in only one hit (which is one less hit than it takes to kill them in normal mode). The second difference (which is more important) is that when you beat the third level of the game, A message pops up with Scar's picture in the background which says "Very good little cub, but that was easy!" The game then proceeds to the credits, which ends the game. As such, you can't play the last three levels of the game if you play on easy mode.
Lobsterzelda
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I just posted an updated movie to the userfiles which reaches the credits (from normal mode). I would prefer that this movie replace any earlier versions of the movie that I have put out. Link: http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/54821801656656910
Lobsterzelda
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Personman wrote:
Since this is likely to be a vault run anyway, I don't see a reason to violate the general site guideline of playing on the hardest difficulty. I hope you can figure out, or someone can help you figure out, how to incorporate Tompa's improvements. This is a very impressive first TAS, and I'd like to see it published soon!
I'm glad you enjoyed it. In the second version of the TAS I made, I incorporated all of Tompa's optimizations (that was the video link I posted to the normal-mode version of the TAS). Realistically, the main spot where time could probably still be saved would be the waterfall section in level 6. The time when the blocks spawn seems to be based on what frame the game is at in its frame counter (the frame counter is a 2 byte number stored in memory addresses 0560-0561 in hex). Additionally, if Simba is in a spot on the screen when a block is going to load, the block always loads from the top of the screen. The fastest strategy would then be to delay moving for a few frames to get a good frame before entering the waterfall section, and then jump so that Simba scrolls the top of the screen at just the right height to spawn the block so he can reach the next platform without any delay. With regards to what difficulty this TAS should be played on, I'm waiting to hear what Memory and the other judges decide, since I haven't heard much overall feedback on the preferred difficulty for this run.
Lobsterzelda
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Hey everyone. So I have a quick update on the TAS. I made a new version of this TAS that plays the game on regular difficulty, which finished the game in 5:28. I made an encode of it so that people could watch it, but the sound is extremely out of sync with the video, so I recommend watching it with the sound off (if someone could make a better encode out of the movie, I would greatly appreciate it). The link to the encode of the movie is here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=78vWX83a6_A I also uploaded the fm2 of the run to the user movie section, which can be found here: http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/54399221857418348
Lobsterzelda
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Tompa wrote:
You can open up the .fm2 file in a text editor and simply copy and paste inputs from one movie to another. It won't display frame numbers however, so you'll need line numbers to keep track of where you are. It's also possible to open up the input file from a .bk2 file as well. They are zip files, so you can open it with Winrar or whatever and then open the input log.txt. As the two are in a slightly different format, you can't directly copy inputs this way from .bk2 to .fm2, but at least you can view the input presses if you are unable to open up the run in Bizhawk.
Is the movie file you made the encoding for from the input movie file you linked above? I got the movie to run in FCEUX, but it doesn't sync. More specifically, at frame 401 in the movie you posted on youtube, simba jumps up to manipulate the position of the cactus enemy. However, in the user file you listed Simba wouldn't jump for the first time until frame 499. Consequently, when I play the movie back, simba just runs into the cactus enemy and the movie desyncs. I tried manually changing the input, but I can't seem to get it to line up.
Lobsterzelda
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@Tompa Ah ok. So I see where I lost time. Instead of just trying to move as fast as possible, I could have landed on the edge of the platform two times and rolled through the cactus-looking things, which would save about a half-second each time (since I wouldn't go into the slow bouncing off of an enemy animation). The other big difference is that you delay climbing up the platform with the porcupine to avoid getting hit, then jump over it and then past it. I'll have to test this out to see if its faster than my strategy for that section, although the other 2 parts definitely represent improvements over my run. I think the reason why I didn't think to do that was that I tried rolling through the first catctus enemy in the game and took damage, so I just assumed at that point that I had to jump on them to kill them, when in reality that's not the case. As an aside, do you know how to combine input files in FCEUX (to take parts from multiple movies and combine them into one movie)?
Lobsterzelda
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Tompa wrote:
I did some work on this a couple of years ago, though only finishing the first level. My WIP is is 111 frames faster up to the Hyena http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/18420659661250028
I'm curious to see what you did. Unfortunately, I can't install BizHawk on my computer, so I can't play that video. If you or somebody else could make an MP4 recording of the user movie, an fm2 version of the file, or show me a way to view the movie without BizHawk, I would greatly appreciate it.
Lobsterzelda
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Sorry, I just wanted to make a quick update. I re-tested roaring at the porcupines, and I was mistaken. You can run under them if you roar at them and then immediately run. However, this is one frame slower than taking damage and running through them.
Lobsterzelda
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Doomsday31415 wrote:
Wow, I had no idea Europe got such a garbage port of the SNES game. They really got shafted on this thing. Graphics and controls aside, you don't even get the second half of the game! I did have two concerns with the TAS itself though:
    - In the SNES version, you can roar next to those porcupines to flip them over. You can also roll through them if they're facing you. Does neither work here? - I can't say I agree with doing hard mode here. All it seems to do is make fights take more hits and that stampede take even longer.
Just for the novelty of seeing such a bad port, I voted Yes.
Hi Doomsday. In this version of the game, you can't roll through porcupines no matter which direction they're facing. However, you are correct that you can roar to flip the porcupines over. However, it takes a minimum of 30 frames to do one roar, and after you flip the porcupine over you still have to jump onto it or over it to avoid taking damage. Getting hit by the porcupine causes you to be in a state of taking damage for only 20 frames before you can start running again, making this faster than roaring. As far as doing the game on a different difficult setting, I am open to the idea. I could basically transfer the input file to a new TAS, and there's very little I would have to change to make it sync (mainly, the hyena fights, the waterfall section in level 6 and the stampede level). Although before I do that, I would like to get a consensus as to what people would prefer to see for this game. In particular, would people be more interested in seeing the game run on easy mode, on normal mode, or on hard mode?
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Yeah, I'm gonna have to agree with Bahamete here and vote no. If you TAS a hack of a game, the hack is supposed to be either more complicated or longer than the original game, but this hack is much simpler and shorter than SMW (no water levels, no underground levels, missing a lot of the enemies, etc.) The overall entertainment for the run was meh. Having the enemies auto-die would have been cool for 15 seconds, but having it for the whole run makes this run seem kind of dumb, since it effectively makes this a 4 level hack of SMW where there are no enemies. However, this is much more optimized than your previous two TASes, so that's a plus.
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