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Lord_Tom
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The above discussion is just too intriguing...will have to try some mucking...
Lord_Tom
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I can't watch this yet, so all I can say is holy effing, effing crap...I can't believe the previous submission was improvable by so much. And I much appreciate the more congenial tone for what continues to be an amazing competitive/cooperative effort!
Lord_Tom
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Highness: Thanks, fixed it.
Lord_Tom
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I may have explained things "sub-optimally" ;) As it turns out, with the technique I'm referring to, the in-game/realtime distinction is not important. To illustrate, here are the 2 simplified scenarios: Finish Track 2 as fast as possible: Track 2 (real): +0 frames Track 2 (in-game): +0 frames Track 3 (real): +3 frames Track 3 (in-game): +3 frames Total: +3 frames Drop a frame in Track 2: Track 2 (real): +1 frame Track 2 (in-game): +1 frame Track 3 (real): +0 frames Track 3 (in-game): +0 frames Total: +1 frames Two conclusions from this: 1. Overall, time is saved by dropping a frame in track 2 BOTH real and in-game 2. It is not possible to get the fastest possible in-game time for both tracks I do agree that in-game time makes the most sense for this game since that's what flashes up on the screen (and to follow precedent).
Lord_Tom
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Pause/unpause takes a long time in this game due to the annoying sound effect, so it can't be of practical use. Also, just found that I can, in fact, drop a frame in track 2, letting me start track 3 3 frames earlier, so it should be possible to achieve a (tiny) net benefit from the annoying counter behavior.
Lord_Tom
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Ok, figured it out. Just as Randil said, there's a 0-255 counter at 3f which drives the speed counter (0-3 loop). When a level starts, another counter at 7e5 is counting down; after it reaches 0, there's a set number of frames before the in-gamer timer starts, BUT a variable number of frames before the engine starts depending on what the speed counter is doing. Optimal behavior occurs when, on the frame 7e5 wraps around, the speed counter is going from 2-->3. In the worst case scenario, 7e5 wraps when the speed counter is going from 3-->0, resulting in the loss of 3 in-game frames. Looking at tracks 0-4 for my and JXQ's runs, we're even overall in terms of this effect. However, JXQ's run has the best possible outcome for track 5 (I'm not there yet), so my run will end up 0-3 frames down because of it, without any obvious way to avoid it, though I'll check if there are cases where losing 1-2 frame in a certain level gains >1-2 frames in the next one. This run should hit the workbench in a week or so...
Lord_Tom
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Thanks, Randil, will give it a look. I suspected something like that was going on, but was hoping for a (manipulable) alternative. Unfortunately for Excitebike there doesn't seem to be a way to drop frames during the transition between tracks, meaning the only way to get the best in-game time for track n+1 may well be to lose time on track n. On the happier side, it looks like I actually benefitted from this effect on an earlier track...:)
Lord_Tom
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I'm 2/3 done with an improvement to tracks 0,1,2,5 that will save a bit over a second overall. Unfortunately, there seems to be some laxity between optimal real-time and track-times, as well as seemingly arbitrary frame gains/losses between tracks. As a result, the timer for track 3 starts 2 frames later relative to when the bikes start in the published run, giving me a slower in-game time despite completing the level at exactly the same speed. Anybody know about this behavior? It seems to me kinda frame-rulish...
Lord_Tom
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Impressive new glitch! SMB must have a lever you guys keep hitting to pop out new time savers whenever you want...HL must be winding up about now. :) Too bad about 5-4, that must've been frustrating as hell...
Lord_Tom
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Got 36:19 on track 0; comparable improvement should be possible on track 1. Should be a couple weeks to get this run together. :)
Lord_Tom
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Andrew: I looked at it and don't think facing left can save time; reason is that the published run lands at speed 33 and releases B for a frame, instantly slowing to 24. The segment does not appear to be limited by ability to slow down, but rather by the speed at which Mario can get to the ground after the pipe...
Lord_Tom
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I've had my eye on improving this game for several months, and when I saw this post I figured if I could find even 1 improvement myself to go along w/ xkeeper's, I'd do a run. Happily, I have done so...as JXQ suspected, there is indeed a way to take (at least) 1 jump with less slowdown. xkeeper: I don't know how you figured out the "delay to advance" thing, but...whoa. Nicely done!
Lord_Tom
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Simply amazing achievement! I'd followed this thread way back when and thought 'Well, there's no underlying game logic reason that says it has to be possible, maybe it just isn't.' Kudos to MUGG for never saying die. I would vote for a no-warps walkathon to get published, though it would end up being quite long for an SMB run. If, as andrewg suggested, however, there were to be an 'all known SMB glitches run,' I'd definitely vote for 4-3 being done as a walkathon to show this off.
Lord_Tom
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First off, I've looked into this glitch pretty extensively now and join the crowd in congratulating HappyLee on apparently perfect execution of a new SMB glitch. Second, I'll build a bit on KirkQ's work and try to give a nice explanation of how this glitch works, as exemplified by this simple demonstration. 1st, a few memory addresses: 86 - x location, pixels 400 - x location, sub-pixels 57 - x speed, pixels/16 705 - x speed, subpixels 73f - camera x location, pixels As most will know, getting the pipe in 8-4 to take Mario to the water world requires the screen to be advanced to a certain point, after which Mario can go back to the left and enter the pipe. SMB screen scrolling behavior when Mario moves right changes depending on where Mario is on screen (x location - camera location): 0-79: no change in camera 80-112: camera advances 1 pixel each time Mario's x pixel changes by 1 or more 112: camera advances the same number of pixels that Mario advances The result of the behavior in the 80-112 range is that if Mario is moving more than 1 pixel/frame (i.e. speed>16), he will slowly advance on the screen until he is 112 pixels ahead of the camera, i.e. 112 pixels from the left edge. Further, if Mario is >80 pixels ahead of the camera, he can scroll the screen without net movement by simply walking back and forth by 1 pixel over and over again; this works until Mario gets back down to 80 pixels ahead. The problem, TAS wise, is that walking back and forth like this is quite slow. One can get a bit faster by carefully setting Mario's x subpixel wiggle back and forth a minimal distance, for example for x location from 103.240 to 104.0; even so, each pixel scrolled takes a minimum of 3-4 frames; very slow since at max walking speed Mario advances 1.5 pixels/frame. Why is it so slow? Because Mario's normal acceleration is fairly pitiful: less than 1 pixel/frame squared. Thus, the following is what happens with x speed when Mario tries to wiggle w/ x location starting at 104.0: frame 1: 255.104 (moves 0.16 pixels left) --> 103.240 frame 2: 0.152 (no movement) --> 103.240 frame 3: 1.48 (moves 0.16 pixels right) --> 104.0 (scroll 1 pixel) frame 4: 255.104 (moves 0.16 pixels left) --> 103.240 Enter the moon-walk. If Mario is walking and holds left+right, rightward acceleration is increased. In a narrow range of x speed sub-pixels, this results in Mario being unable to stop himself despite being on the ground with no input! frame 1: x speed = 2.48 frame 2: x speed = 1.0 --> 0.16 pixels right frame 3: x speed = 255.208 --> 0.16 pixels left frame 4: x speed = 1.0 frame 5: x speed = 255.208 frame 6: x speed = 1.0 ...etc Since Mario's acceleration is 1.48 pixels/frame squared, it is possible to set up such a loop where x speed is never set to 0.xxx, which would stop Mario's movement. However, such a loop only scrolls the screen in the following conditions: 1. Mario must be >80 pixels ahead of the camera 2. Mario's movement must take him across a pixel boundary Number 1 sets a limit on how much scrolling is possible without Mario moving: about 32 pixels. Number 2 makes it so that the behavior is very sensitive to Mario's x subpixel location: essentially, it must alternate between n.240 and n+1.0. As shown in my demo, no jumping is required for this trick, though it does make it easier to set up the right pixel location since speed remains constant in the air with no input. As KirkQ and my demo's also show, it is possible to scroll the screen either standing on the ground with no input or jumping in the air and alternating left-right-left-right. A couple final things: 1. Getting Mario's x speed subpixel correct to perform the trick requires him to max out his speed for a while (or possibly press against a wall) and let the x speed subpixel overflow into abnormal values. Simply starting from a stand still, moon-walking, and then stopping will result in normal deceleration back to 0. The target x speed is between 24.192 to 24.232. 2. Intentionally walking at speed 16 (slower than max walking speed of 24) keeps Mario only 80 pixels ahead of the camera and prevents the need to scroll the screen back. Alas, for the distance that needs to be covered in 8-4, too many frames are lost staying slow for it to be worth it (but it's pretty close!) I hope this clarifies things for ppl in a way that was interesting; it was fun figuring all this out, even though I didn't find a way to get in the pipe any faster. [/url]
Lord_Tom
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I found a novel key combination which appears to make an improvement to HappyLee's movie possible. By pressing left and/or right, while holding the round button next to A, Mario seems to accelerate beyond his supposed max speed of 1.5 px/frame all the way up as high as 2.5px/frame, a 67% speed boost! No idea why this happens, it's as if the programmers left a special key-combo in the game to speed things up for testing. My results are still VERY preliminary, but I suspect the time for this run could go as low as 4:58 were this technique fully implemented!!! </kidding>
Lord_Tom
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klmz...care to share what your improvement is to 8-4? I've never TAS'd this game, but I wondered if a few frames could be sacrificed to maipulate the pirahna out of the way instead of barging through it. I enjoyed both adelikat & HappyLee's submissions. Maybe HappyLee overdid his jumping a touch, but hey, all Mario can do is walk and jump, so what do you expect?
Lord_Tom
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If you're referring to the jump onto the ledge above the Ice Beam, no; I was referring to the technique of morph jumping by stopping just at the edge of a ledge (without morphing). BTW, if you haven't seen it, the 100% is published now...:D
Lord_Tom
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The metroid source was decompiled some years ago by SnowBro, and partially commented. However, sections pertaining to enemy decision making is completely uncommented, so I wasn't able to decipher much (read: anything). With respect to the dragons & boss routines, I will check into it. Based on what I know, I'm fairly certain that such things are triggered somehow off the game timer (which is also used to determine how long Samus has been playing, and therefore which ending to show, but it's also possible its pseudo-random based on when rooms are entered.
Lord_Tom
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CtrlAltDestroy wrote:
Also, I've always wondered why some of the lava dragons spit fire, when others don't. I'm still convinced there are many more screen scrolling glitches in this game to be abused. If you look closely at this movie, you can see a moment where the room scrolls both horizontally and vertically! Granted, it's severely corrupted, but still... it shows the engine is capable of that.
They're sea-horses, not dragons. I'd also wondered about that, but never really put in an effort to figure it out. If it were somehow manipulable it could provide a small time savings. My sense during the run was that early on, none of them fired, and later, all of them did, so I thought it was possibly item-driven, but I just don't remember and am too tired to check right now. :) I like the youtube video, esp the iteration where the beam sprite is replaced by Samus'! Would look even cooler with the long beam! $49 (0-3 for up, down, left, right) is the scroll direction address; one could obtain such behavior by modifying it manually. I agree there may be more ways to make use of this type of thing in-game for the 100%, though I wouldn't say this video provides much evidence, given its bizzarity. EDIT: Ok, according to strategywiki.com, they ARE dragons. BUT, they look like seahorses. From the same article: "The source of their fire comes from a rare plant that only grows in Norfair at certain times of the year. When the plant becomes scarce, the dragons lose their ability to blow fire, but this does not happen very often. "
Lord_Tom
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Good find...you just hug the right hand wall while falling?
Lord_Tom
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Interesting. I tried the conversion in 2.0.4-interim on Windows, and it desynched about 10 minutes in. I wanted to submit an .fm2, but didn't think trying other versions had much likelihood of success. Shows what I know. I'll give it a try, and if successful will throw in some subtitles and ask for the file to be updated. Sorry for the hassle.
Lord_Tom
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ugetab wrote:
The only possible item that could have looked confusing to me(not familiar with NES metroid quirks) was that in one of the hallways where both doors were shot, it looked like there was a wasted frame. My only question is if wasting the frame(assuming I saw it correctly) was just sandwiched between something of slight interest.
Both doors were shot to reduce lag during the transition to the next screen. Not sure about the "wasted frame," but if you're referring to a case where I shot both doors and then morphed, there is a slowdown associated with morphing, which was outweighed by the lag reduction of being in the ball form.
Lord_Tom
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Nice subject line, Arc, were u on IRC earlier? ;) Glad you liked it. Yes, overjumping is frequently used to optimize the door-transition vertical scrolling. I don't specifically recall if I used that technique to manipulate luck.
Lord_Tom
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I would have to agree with most of the above. It's flattering to have my run be the inspiration for a 3rd party commentary, though the content could have been more accurate/insightful/relevant. I think both audio commentary and subtitles can be cool. I'd tend to favor subtitles since they can (usually) we watched the 1st time one watches a run, without detracting from it, whereas I think an audio commentator best serves motivated viewers who've already watched the movie and want more info/detail. ...and this is the 2nd YouTube modification of this run I've seen (the 1st was w/ subtitles) stating that I use a "frame glitch" to kill Kraid, which is not true as stated in the run comments. I just fire every 4th non-lag frame, corresponding to the length of Kraid's stun period; no glitch is required or used.
Lord_Tom
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Interesting challenge and a nice effort. With respect to improving the current run (now the eldest published run on the site), I think the only way to go is a run that uses 2 players and warps to the max. This game is way too repetitive, with too much transition time between levels to justify a full run. Failing that, or in addition, I can see supporting a play-around for this game that uses 2 players, does all/most of the levels, and focuses on being entertaining w/ big combos, Bub/Bob interacting or performing synch'd movements, etc.
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