A speedrun which is not entertaining is basically worthless, no matter how fast it completes the game, or what level of playing ability is demonstrated. The "speed" in a speedrun is a means to an end, and that end is entertainment.
Choosing to sacrifice entertainment for a very small increase in speed would tend to indicate that you expect your finished run to be so boring that viewers cannot stand to watch it any longer than necessary to evaluate it. And if you seem to feel the run is not worth watching, why should you expect anyone else to?
If you still feel you absolutely must minimize the total time of the run rather than each individual level time, you should waste a few seconds, through the whole level, doing something entertaining before you reach the goal, rather than stopping just before it, and doing nothing (or worse, twitching) until the timer is what you want. This would satisfy most vocal opponents of waiting without compromising the goal.
I agree with you somewhat, but it doesn't apply universally to everything.
1. Entertainment is purely down to opinion, I don't belive speed should be sacrificed for entertainment sake unless its generic throughout the whole movie i.e. Atro's SoR3 run.. How well a run was executed is more well established.
2. Speed is a form of entertainment. I tried to get as much action on screen as possible without adding to the length of the game. I don't know how the assumption could be made that no one would want to watch a run so boring that I would want to minimize the game length. I remember reading various topics beforehand i.e. Sonic 2 thread and someone stated that a run that minimizes the game lenght would be an acceptable run. I would also argue that Sonic 2+3 specials are more boring than Sonic 1's. Like I said in thw commentary people only think they're boring because of the simple graphics, background and music. Of course I admit that there was nothing too surprising about them. I mean what could I of done that would have been surprising although if you watch more closely they are a lot of very neat moves.
3. That was the most interesting point you made because the requests made for that were what influecened this run, someone said that if I plan to do that then they'd rather see me get to the end of the level as quickly as possible and mess around and walk past the signpost, had you said that at the time and justified it I may well have done it. The lesson here is if you don't say it then you won't get it.
Well an opinion is more or less proven wrong/correct over time when you think about it logically.
Although it doesn't always apply to something that constantly adapts.
e.g.
If you were to compare two competing teams against each other over time then you could compare say over a year and say yes.. that was the better team, but not if they constantly adapt and change. Then reasons for good/bad performances is often what normally causes the contriversay.
I don't know much about about codecs, but this TAS is certainly coming along. Woot...
...
..
..
..
..
...
OK. The bible was written about 3000 years ago to show Desert Dwellers how to live their lifes since back then there was no morals. And so it talks on behalf off someone who logically doesn't exist. Much like the Quran and other holy books. The newer testament was based on rumours and historians have managed to come up with a logical explanation for all the supposive miracles that happened. One other thing I will point out is that the stuff about Jesus was written about 30 years after his death and we all know how hazy memories can become. Also take note that people more easily amazed back then through lack of understanding.
So except that you'll die and everyone else around you will die, and there is no afterlife whatsoever, which in affect end any form of disscussion.
BYE BYE >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>ZOOM>>>>>>>>>>>
Is it WDW next, I know you probally already know but don't forget to re-enter and exit the hmc.
I don't know if WDW will be an easy or hard world. Apart from the coin route I don't think too many stars will cause problems, although you have to be certain that you jump in at the right height which might be a pain. Personally I do find swimming levels boring to watch.
BTW is it possible to avoid WDW from the last stair during the BLJ sequence?
I think some of you are making too big a deal of delaying at the end of the stages in order to get a lower bonus. It only affects a few stages early on plus I played the specials as well to get a low ring count and more importantly avoid collecting a continue. Its not like the entire run comprised of sloppely going through the stages and waiting for ten seconds in order to save one frame during the bonus countdown.
I also don't see how slowing down for rings and avoiding damage is a legit argument. Its not a ethical to deliberately compare a 50+ ring attack to a pure speed, its simply impossible to either beat or match the same time (with the exception of 2 stages admitably) . You don't directly compare up+down 3 minute run of LthP compared to a 100% that doesn't use the up+down movement which beats the game in just under 2 hours.
Truncated:
I can imagine voting Yes to an improved all-emerald run also. Just not this one.
I'm confused by this statement, do you mean that you spotted so many improvements that it wouldn't be worth publishing or is it because of the delays at the end of some of the earlier stages?
However, there is one common trait that must be fulfilled: The movie must complete the game without viewer’s intervention. ...
You must complete the game. This includes the ending ("the end") and credits.
The game is complete if the inputs are left alone. Providing left isn't being held or sonic is made to jump off at the end.
Like I just said I was able to prevent JXQ from completing the Final Zone.
It can mean that, but it also means easy.
I guess Atro uses the wrong wording to express his opinion in a way that could easily be misunderstood.
The game does end right the purpose of the movie was to finish it with all emeralds in the fastest possible time by all means neccesary. The movie did end correctly. Of course the audience could quickly mess with the input to delay or even kill sonic, heck I've even made JXQ miss Robotnik and then killed him.
Your standard of play is certainly improved since the beggining, these speacals were a bit beyond me at the time and you can see why. I can't wait to see hyper sonic.
Read title...
I've downloaded Famtastia 6.0.0 but it doesn't have the movie making options and the games don't seem to emulate correctly so...
Where do I find it?
Its only neccsary to make Robotnik jump into his vehicle, because I termitated so early it caused him to enter slower. It wouldn't be even much bother to make sonic run along to the end, it would take seconds for one of the judges to modify it for that purpose.
The exact termination point is subject to debate. We have seen these options:
Ending the movie as soon as possible (when no further input is needed to complete the game).
Pros: Shortest possible movies (as for frame count); easy to compare competing movies
Cons: Aiming for this goal might sometimes cause the game to end slower than with option 3; sometimes, movie is ended before the game is actually over
Ending the movie at the first possible moment where the ending of the game can not be prevented by providing more input.
Pros: When watching the movie on an emulator, accidentally touching the controlling keys will not prevent the game from completing
Cons: Longer movies than “shortest possible”, yet movies are ended before the commonly established “last hit” is delivered
Ending the movie at the moment the player character halts/last shot has been delivered
Pros: Common ground makes it easy to compare competing movies
Cons: Exact definition depends on the game and is subject to debate
Ending the movie when the ending is over (“the end”).
Pros: “Movie end” text will not appear prematurely
Cons: Needlessly long movie files
Its a grey area I'm afraid, if I'm going for the shortest movie time I'm gonna have to terminate as early as possible. If I have to hit robotnik then I won't break 21 mins.
The decision bugged me was not hitting Robotnik one last time at the end.
I take that because you did it and I didn't. I was going for real game time which meant terminating the movie as early as possible and on another note from the very start I wanted to see if it was possible to break 21mins for a movie lenght and I did. I don't know if I'd want to do another run that obseletes yours. I could do a few stages through stage select and hex edit all the rest in. I fairly certain that its possible to knock 2 seconds off yours.
In my defence the bonus levels are much better than Sonic 2 or 3. If you were to take away the fancy 3D tunnel and more updated music, then it wouldn't be much fun. I was strongly consisdering Sonic 2 until I saw quietrust's run, I couldn't think of many improvements to it other than sing tails as an assist and the planning for getting the chaos emeralds was beyond me, and I didn't know whats decisions based on entertainment I could make. The other motivation for doing this run was to encourage more people to do runs where runs where Sonic collects all emeralds.
More re-records aren't always true. Sometimes it could mean the author has a very low knowledge of the game and tested out unrelisitic set of input. Also in my Sonic 1 run there were three to four ocassions where I accidently wiped off a whole load of stuff one time acidently re-recording at the start of the movie. I had to download my own Link, but since I'd remebered what the input roughly was for each section I was able to replicate in fewer re-records. I think my run was much closer to 20,000 that the 13,000 stated. Also sometimes an author might even look for glitches or take several 1000 re-records on certain moves that eventually he/she may give up on. Every time sonic jumps or skids you can be pretty sure that 50 or so re-records had been applied to that, the most I ever spent on one section during my run was about 957 in that swing section in Marble 2. I'm sure what I said earlier doesn't apply to Nitsuja in this case.
I'm sure Nitsuja has more to add to this, but generally I agree the more re-records the better a movie will be on average.
The one that really struck me was at the end of marble zone 2.
There are some platforms hanging above lava, and 6 rings in between them.
You slow down to collect those 6 rings, but there are 14 rings earlier in the level that you didn't get. If you hadn't had to collect those 6 rings, you could have cleared that area a couple of seconds faster.
I thought you might say that, but there were a total of 55 rings I could of collected. Unless you're including the tele ring boxes which are completely out of the question to get. Even If I collected all the rings before then, I still would have needed to take a dip in the lava to get another ring and the other 5 I avoided would have caused sonic to either bumb into an object or to signifcant slow down his speed.
upthorn wrote:
AKA: Though, the least you could do is make Sonic do something random in the idle time.
What do you mean? I thought the time was passed reasonably well. Although I'm in a very biased postion I did do a lot more than what JXQ did. A lot of the stages he didn't do anything other than just remain off screen.
The movie desynced during that first Robotnik battle
This might be a dumb question, but are you sure it desynced? I get hit a lot of times in that battle to save time, it's not a mistake. Otherwise, make extra sure you have a good ROM version and are using the most recent VBA, although if either of those were the problem I would have expected it to desync much earlier.
You got killed and you started doing weird things in the first act, without making any progress through it. Do you want me to post a video of it just to make sure?
Edit: Guano's run of OoT sometimes didn't desync until an hour into the game, late desyncs can happern.
If its a "severe glitch" then I agree with mwl, it should either be included in this run or another run. I would rather see your run get improved without the bottle adventure trick.
But surely the point in making a TAS is to show the fastest possible way to theoretically reach the finish in the quickest possible time?
The route I was thinking of was (starting from the end of Kokiri)
Hyrule FieldSpirit (learn Requiem;get bombchu's; play requiem and kill yourself)
SAVE/QUITKokiriLost Woods
Goron CityDondongo's (get bomb bag)
Hyrule Castle (learn lullaby; this is the greatest uncertainty of the whole run)
Lon Lon Ranch (get bottle from cucco game; this is required for the bottle adventure and to defect thunderbolt to Ganondorf)
Zora's river (blow boulder; use ground jump to skip owl and cucco to bypass waterfall)
Zora's Domain (Skip King Zora and attempt another roll into jabu;I'll have a shot at this when the time comes; then again jumpslash if it doesn't come off)
Jabu (Complete as usual; there should be two bombchu's left although only one is needed since bombs are available; wait you need one to cross the valley when doing Ganon early)
Kill yourself (this can be done with a timed out bomb)
SAVE/QUIT
Kokiri
*
Hyrule
Ganondorf Cutscene
Temple of Time
*This is a suggestion (Lost woods; Death Mountain; Magic Fairy;owl and follow on from there
Last time Guano took by SDA's and TG's timing 1:15:30, I think this time it should take anywhere between 1:05 to 1:10.
Adult Route
Temple of TimeGraveYard (get hookshot; test to see if its quicker to bomb hover up Dampe's roof)
Shadow (Get hover boots and exit)
Kakariko
Death Mountain
**
Goron City
Lost WoodsForest Temple (Complete Forest Temple; getting the bow and boss Key and then glitching into the room below and levatating upto the elavator might be worth trying)
KokiriLake Hylia (going to the domain and glitching under the ice might be worth trying)
Steal RodBottle AdventureTemple of Time (Go back in time and then imeadiatley forward again)
Ganon's Castle (Walk up seam; walk along seam to where entrance is below; Do hover boost then do a backflip and pull out a bombchu, this is what Acryte claims. I've never been able to pull this off my self though; Do superslide and then enter Ganon Castle)
Ganons Tower (enter spirit chamber collect all jewels and kill the beamos to get an additional 5 bombs, hit diamond and collect 20 bombchus)
Ganon's Central Tower (use bombs bombchu's and explosives to beat all three rooms, I suspect this will be hard to do)
Ganondorf ( use bottle to deflect thunderbolt and then pause and equip sword)
Continue as normal after that
**This is a crucial decision - Great Fairy as an Adult
Sorry if that was a bit messy but now I look back at that is skipping King Zora really worth it?
I would estimate the Adult stuff would take about 50mins so
Child + Adult = 1:58 (maybe)
I was never able to get the super emeralds although I was able to do it on the original sonic and knuckles cartridge.What do the super emeralds do anyway. Is it to face that Robotnik thing that flies in the sky with the emerald. Sort of like Moon Zone in Sonic Advance. I would prefer if they were collected, but that bobxp's decision and not mine.
Edit are you definitley going to continue towards the very end of the game. It would be a mamoth task to collect 14 emeralds through a game that double the size of Sonic 2 and thats both in terms of stages and length, I wonder if that can be done in under an hour.
If you want you could always treat it like a real run starting from the mushroom hill and then simply simply start another movie and hex edit in the stuff from Mushroom Hill afterwards its just an idea do what you want.
atro city wrote:
Yeah, I think you have to collect all the emeralds to gain access to Doomsday Zone. Plus having the ability to transform into Hyper Sonic instead of Super Sonic is nice.
Whats Hyper sonic? Is he like twice the speed and double the jumping distance of super sonic (my that does sound scary). Didn't Spint say that there were specific shortcuts and glitches that could only be done with Super or Hyper Sonic.
I remember playing as super knuckles and he was just plain awful.
I've played this game and completed it many times, but it was hard for me to picture where Sonic was most of the time. I'm surprised how slow zipping was. I can think of a few possible improvements but they wouldn't lower the ingame timer since the screen has to catch up with the goal sprite. I know how difficult it is when a character zips so fast that you can't see where he is, but a good job has certainly been done here. I'd much rather see the camera hack version. Egg Rocket 1 was the best stage I thought. Although its a yes its not a seal of approval.
The movie desynced during that first Robotnik battle, this is the worst GBA game in the sonic series but is certainly looked funny up till the point I'd seen desync. I can't properly vote until I've seen it in its entriety. I've never really liked that sound track though.
