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again, I'm not caring about the language at all, I just want to answer Nicos ;)
the language saves all together 4 minutes of the whole TAS. Aleckermit timed this a while back
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@limne
finally, finally someone that is able to write normally. I totally understand your point, but still, when I'm TASing, I'm aiming for perfection and usually while aiming for perfection, I always try to see, whatever I can do to make the TAS look also really entertaining.
the problem might be, that I've only TASed MM/OoT and for those games it appears, that speed brings the entertainment you want, especially when TASing MM, which is what I'm currently doing. you'd have to watch my WIP to understand what I mean. the kind of art I'm usually using is, that I try to come up with weird and shocking strategies to clear every section as quickly as possible. this might also make a fully optimized OoT TAS ultra entertaining, but OoT is more limited than MM when it comes to this
and @sonikkustar
I'm glad, that you are normal again, because I was very confused from the things you wrote. of course I forgive you^^
and yes, I agree, that publishing this TAS will motivate the great 3 of OoT to make their TAS now, but not everybody would react the same way, when this gets published
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@sonikkustar
I read your nice little comment. you deleted it a bit too late ;)
so you are saying, that I brought 2 completely different opinions (no need to say something about the thing you wrote afterwards).
so read this topic again. I clearly wrote:
"I somehow changed my opinion now, I'm not against publishing this run anymore, because you brought good points"
forgot what else you wrote, only remember the insult thing. you called me racist out of no reason. I wrote, that language doesn't play a rule for me and then you call me a racist.
I should be allowed to call you ignorant then ;)
let's just stop this, it's pointless.
sonnikkustar, please calm down again and don't take this here to serious ;)
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does anyone have a gun for me?
@sonnikkustar
how ignorant are you? seriously, that's close to insulting me
I clearly, fucking CLEARLY said, that the language doesn't play a rule for me.
I wrote that in my posts <_<
I even said, that I'm not against publishing this run, I just listed all the possible improvements and said, that this run isn't greatly optimized, so I wouldn't be happy about publishing this run ;)
and now you tell me, that I'm racist? god, this pisses me off
why can't I come here and list my opinion without getting flamed from every site?
am I in the right position to critize this TAS or not? as a TASer of this game I am and I should be allowed to say, that this run isn't well TASed <_<
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Limne wrote:
in my opinion it's just not ok to publish such a run, because people, that are not really experienced with speed running zelda (not actually TASing) will think, that this guy did the most optimized and best TASer ever.
The hell? So, it's specifically because the average viewer will think this is such an awesome TAS that you're wanting to block it? Head. Desk. Head. Desk.
Is this really what TASing is? An esoteric software engineering exercise for a small clique of elite gamers to enjoy amongst themselves for their towering achievements in practically applying technical expertise and knowledge? Honestly, in some ways this site is like an academic symposium full of professors droning on endlessly about their thesis research, and I mean that in both the most complimentary and the most derisive sense possible. Yes, the technical prowess of a competent TASer inspires me with both respect and awe, but on the other hand, I've never much cared for the frame-count dick measuring contest so many of them seem fixated on.
If a fully optimized run were to beat this one by a full 5 minutes, how many times more entertaining can you promise it would be to the casual TAS watching public that this run is somehow going to ruin them? Honestly, I think you're more afraid that you don't think that a fully optimized run can actually squeeze any more entertainment out of this game. Faster it might be, but will it be that much more amazing to the average viewer? In other words, it sounds like you're saying your anxious over whether this run might be everything a Zelda 64 TAS needs to be. If not, prove me wrong not by trying to sabotage this run, but by amazing me with your own.
you might have realized, that my english skills are ultra limited, so I'm not really able to get what I actually want to say on to paper
I just mentioned a huge problem when it comes to TASing in general. now that I think about it again this can't be an aspect not to publish this TAS, because it appears for every game
the thing is, the lazy TASer is always the winner. the average viewer doesn't notice wether you saved the 6 frames you worked 5 hours on or not ;)
this also appears to this run. it isn't greatly optimized, but the average viewer won't notice a huge difference between a fully optimized run and this one.
In other words, it sounds like you're saying your anxious over whether this run might be everything a Zelda 64 TAS needs to be. If not, prove me wrong not by trying to sabotage this run, but by amazing me with your own.
I'd have done a new OoT TAS already, if I didn't work on a new Majora's Mask TAS. As I'm focusing on Majora's Mask you have to blame swordless and AKA for haven't done the TAS yet :P
and no, I'm not trying to sabotage this TAS. I just list facts. fact is, this TAS is not very well TASed. you can't say anything against this statement.
you are actually also not able to tell me, wether this is greatly optimized or not, because you aren't TASing this game ;)
other than that, I somehow changed my opinion. this site is about competition and what will motivate swordless and co. more to do this TAS than publishing this run?
I said my opinion and my opinion is, that I don't like the run. you guys might think differently, but you aren't TASing this game, so I see it from another point of view, but I'm actually not that much against a publication like slowking or swordless link ;)[/quote]
Limne wrote:
If a fully optimized run were to beat this one by a full 5 minutes, how many times more entertaining can you promise it would be to the casual TAS watching public that this run is somehow going to ruin them? Honestly, I think you're more afraid that you don't think that a fully optimized run can actually squeeze any more entertainment out of this game. Faster it might be, but will it be that much more amazing to the average viewer?
oh shit, I've never seen such sentences, that made me want to TAS OoT more than this.
go watch the WIP of my Majora's Mask TAS then you'll see how ninja link can get in this games, if you do it right <_<
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hmm Raiscan, to me this website is about TASing a game to its limits, so saving every fucking frame possible, while still trying to entertain.
in most cases and also in OoT perfection brings the entertainment value you want. speed leads to entertainment, that's my opinion ;)
and yes, tasvideos is about obsession with optimizing or what do you think do TASers try to save every fucking frame possible? This whole website is build on the competition between the many TASers trying to beat the games faster and faster
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well, no need to actually care about the language, because a really well TASed OoT run on the US version is still able to beat this TAS by a well amount of time ;)
if you care, I want this run not to be publish not because of the language, but because of the low level of optimizing. the runner was just not experienced enough to be able to do a fully optimized run. he also didn't aim for optimizing in most cases as he admitted in the TAS description, but I must say, he did an amazing job for this being his first TAS he ever did, though (someone told me, that this was the first TAS he ever did, not sure)
as I'm an OoT TASer myself, I just can't stand all the sloopiness shown in this TAS. bloobiebla set the level an OoT TAS must have and this TAS is far away from reaching the same level. in my opinion it's just not ok to publish such a run, because people, that are not really experienced with speed running zelda (not actually TASing) will think, that this guy did the most optimized and best TASer ever. it's sad enough, that most people on youtube still think, that guano's TAS is the best TAS ever made :/
when I or anybody else works on a TAS he works hours and hours on every little thing to really optimize it, but when you then read people calling this brilliantly played you start to think:
"why am I actually trying to optimize? it's pointless, the average viewer won't notice, so let's just make a quick TAS without trying to optimize at all"
I hope you understand, what I've written the right way. I'm not trying to say, that I could easily beat this TAS within one day of work, because I'm so awesome, I just want to say, that publishing this TAS would be a step back into the wrong direction ;)
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sgrunt wrote:
Since it seems to have gone un-noticed, I'm going to draw attention to MrGrunz's list of flaws again:
MrGrunz wrote:
- first off, the author used a bad route. he also didn't include some of the new tricks. he should have skipped the hookshot and got magic bean as child instead via my zora's river early trick. going to lake hylia to get a bottle is also not the best option for a bottle.
- bad luck manipulation overall. he could have saved a shitload of time at the rupee route. then the peahat superslide was also really suboptimal executed. he even used normal walking in this place
- many bad angles
- even some unoptimized sidehops
- should have gotten more bomb drops in the adult route, so he could have add some crazy stuff like my new "semi-Hyper Endless Superslide" trick or just some more superslides
Can you give a time estimate for how much time could be saved with each of these, and perhaps some specific examples on the "bad angles" and "sidehops" points?
Also, I will point out that it seems to be those people that are most familiar with the game that are picking out flaws of this nature. I'd raise the question of how obvious these are to the average audience; if they are highly visible, I question whether the quality of this is sufficient to meet the standard of publishability. The MM4 case was one where that threshold was obviously met, and it's not 100% clear to me yet that that's the case here.
hmm, I'd say we could save at least 4-5 minutes of this TAS. By using the optional child route we can save alone 1-2 minutes. hookshot skip makes up for another 1,5 minutes and optimizing combined with better bomb uses in the adult route can save another minute ;)
well, the major problem with noticing it is that some people didn't even know of the tricks like RBA used in this TAS.
All people in the zelda irc wether TASer or not noticed most of the improvements, that could have been made, so let's say the problem with not noticing all that stuff is having not enough experience with the tricks we have nowadays. most people are not up to date when it comes to this ;)
of course all those minor improvements only occur to experienced TASers. but just one example about how unoptimized this TAS is:
the rupee route (obtaining sword and shield) of the all temples TAS I started back in august is already 8 seconds quicker than the one of this TAS, which is huge!
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sgrunt wrote:
I'll add that in the case of MM4, much of the controversy could be attributed to there being known improvements (additional glitches and the like that were not taken into consideration) despite the general standard of play matching or exceeding that of its predecessor.
This is why I'm keen to hear specific criticism of this run; how good or how bad is it in terms of stock game play than Guanobowl's old run?
look at the things I posted above ;)
it turns out, that not just swordless knows something about OoT TASing, so there are other people, that can criticize a TAS of this game :P
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seriously, I don't know, what to say about this TAS. it has 200k rerecords, but it obviously is not really optimized. from watching it, I was able to see many many improvements. even some sidehops are unoptimized ;)
the route is always far away from being optimal. he also seems to ignore all the tricks, I've discovered like hookshot skip for example.
yet alone by using the optimal route he could have saved 3-4 minutes
200k rerecords tells me, that he at least tried his best to gives us a fucking awesome run. he had just not enough experience to fully optimize this game ;)
it's of course way better than guano's run or JNQ's run, but it is also far away from being 100% optimized.
EDIT: as I've read sgrunt's message to swordless link, where he says, that he wants to hear, why someone could vote no, I'll list some stuff here:
- first off, the author used a bad route. he also didn't include some of the new tricks. he should have skipped the hookshot and got magic bean as child instead via my zora's river early trick. going to lake hylia to get a bottle is also not the best option for a bottle.
- bad luck manipulation overall. he could have saved a shitload of time at the rupee route. then the peahat superslide was also really suboptimal executed. he even used normal walking in this place
- many bad angles
- even some unoptimized sidehops
- should have gotten more bomb drops in the adult route, so he could have add some crazy stuff like my new "semi-Hyper Endless Superslide" trick or just some more superslides
I could list some more stuff, but this should be enough
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adelikat wrote:
If someone knows and/or can contact the author. Tell them to please submit to our site.
I don't want this run to be published here. it is far away from being optimized. even some sidehopping is unoptimized and the most important thing is, those japanese guys just don't want to watch my youtube videos. I have new tricks for the any% run there, which could have easily saved 1-2 minutes
the route he chose is also ultra suboptimal. just a few examples:
- old forest escape via hover is way quicker than new one, because it skips the ocarina. could have saved 1 minute here
- going to lake hylia and getting golden scale is one of the slowest ways to get a bottle. without using my trick to get the magic bean and skipping the hookshot, coccu bottle is by far quickest
this TAS convinces me, that even without the japanese version a sub 55 run is definately possible ;)
and I've read someone writing something about tricks he used, we don't know of. I've watched the movie and there's nothing new in this TAS.
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we have also a new deku palace strategy :P
will save another 3 seconds, a bomb and is way more entertaining
I actually planned to upload a TAS of this new strategy. worked 8 hours on it to finally overwrite the TAS by loading a bad placed save stat <_<
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hmm, while waiting for the bomb shop keeper
you have to understand something first:
speed > entertainment
so the goal was to get the perfect angle and positioning before starting to talk to him. the roll gave me that angle and positioning
but you're right, I could have done something there, didn't thought about this ;)
but seriously, that is a 2 second section, so this shouldn't matter at all. will remember this for the second time we visit him
but there's one problem, though. someone, who doesn't know everything about MM and watching this, will think, that I wasted a lot of time. we had the same problem already at my old MM TAS. while waiting for the blue warp after odolwa to get activated, I did some weird playaround, which confused a lot of people, even a lot of experienced players ;)
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Mitjitsu wrote:
Nobody wants to make an encode :'-(
nice timing ;)
when you wrote this, I was making the encode
http://www.mediafire.com/?mviwyi5ljyd
the file is pretty big, although I cut out all the longer cutscenes. I just suck at encoding, but it's better than nothing :P
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oh well, expect an avi tomorrow
for everybody watching, I've discovered a bunch of new tricks I have only published on zeldaspeedruns.com yet, so don't be confused, when suddenly something crazy happens you've never seen before ;)
one example is a trick, that let's you skip many types of cutscene via playing SoDT 3 frames before the cutscene starts. I do this to skip the "Mikau walking out of water" cutscene
expect a few other new tricks, too. Slowking and I also figured out some new strategies and changed the route a bit ;)
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ZFG, the most significant timesaver is not planting the bean, it is indeed buying the bean, because if we don't buy the bean, we can use the shortcut from lost woods to zora's river
also nice idea with the bean thing, but that is unlikely to be quicker, but it is something, that has to be timed ;)
it would probably take like 1:20 from the main room to the mirror shield and I'd gain another 15 seconds advantage, as I can skip the small key after the mirror shield.
we have to make a TAS of the new spirit temple route until the boss room and also time, how much time the lost woods warp saves etc.
it's one of those really complex things, that requier a shitload of testing, sadly
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I'm pretty sure that that's just a rumor and no fact at all.
we also have no real 100% route yet. the one we have is far away from being optimal, so before someone does this run he has to time a lot of shit first ;)
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at the moment the only OoT/MM TASers, that are able to create TASes of those games on the highest level are bloobiebla, swordless, AKA and me and nobody of us can't even think about doing an OoT 100% run. it's just a too long and tough TAS ;)
but you're right, such a big TAS can probably be only done by a many different people TASing it together
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indeed it is, so this means, that this trick can't be combined with bottom of the well bombchus, because you have to do child spirit to make this trick useful ;)
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here's a new nice trick for the spirit temple:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vjbh9Upbc2s
the point of this trick is to clear the spirit temple as quickly as possible without using the bean. the reason why not using the bean might be quicker is because using the mirror shield early ledge and planting the bean takes a while.
getting the bean also takes a nice amount of time, because we could actually skip most of zora's river by using the lost woods warp. this means, that we only go to zora's river to get the bean.
so we have to compare:
spirit temple without bean and new trick vs. spirit temple with bean + planting bean + getting bean
