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Nahoc wrote:
MrGrunz wrote:
TAS Competition has been started once again. Bloobiebla and Sam will definitely enter, so I'm certain we will be able to see some very good submissions.
Would be cool to see some new people joining as well ;)
We might start doing the 100% run as a collaborative project soon, so if anyone is interested in taking part at that, he could use this task as some kind of warm up or practice for it.
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TAS Competition has been started once again. Bloobiebla and Sam will definitely enter, so I'm certain we will be able to see some very good submissions.
Would be cool to see some new people joining as well ;)
We might start doing the 100% run as a collaborative project soon, so if anyone is interested in taking part at that, he could use this task as some kind of warm up or practice for it.
Edit: Link to the competition:
http://forums.zeldaspeedruns.com/index.php?topic=1250.0
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Any% should ALWAYS refer to beating the game as fast as possible without any restrictions. This is the only clear category we have for every existing game in this universe.
For other categories you can add extra restrictions (like banning glitches etc.) depending on the game you play. Not even 100% is a clear category in every game (just look at the mess with OoT 100%).
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I doubt this new version will be anything special, but I'll still buy it anyway. AOE2 is one of the greatest games ever, so whenever something new about it is released I can't resist and have to get it.
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DK64_MASTER wrote:
To expand on my point as well as cafde_'s...
Let's play devil's advocate and pretend we define 100% as something drastically different than what has been agreed upon as 100% by SDA or Zelda Speed Runs or #zeruda (I wonder if anyone would get that reference). Now you might start a debate at one of those sites... And we all know what happens when the proverbial shithits the fan.
Dat last link:
What the fuck was wrong with those people back in 2006? :O
As r0bd0g mentioned, warping to the credits is not possible without RBA in the definition I posted of a 100% run.
Yet I'm still against banning RBA. It really couldn't be used for very much using the given definition, I don't even know if it would be worth it setting RBA up anyway.
If we force the runner to get Map/Compass/Boss Key, we could also allow RBAing some of them. Those items are used to RBA dungeon items:
Prescription-Great Deku Tree
Eyeball Frog-Dodongo's Cavern
Eyedrops-Jabu Jabu's Belly
Claim Check-Forest Temple
Fire Arrow-Fire Temple
Ice Arrow-Water Temple
Light Arrow-Spirit Temple
Using Bugs you you can get the Boss Key and Map. You'd still have to get the Boss Key in Ganon's Castle normally, so Warping to the credits might very well be slower anyway.
Allowing both RBA, while forcing the runner to get the dungeon stuff makes sense to us, but it will certainly not even make a bit of sense for the normal viewer. We'd suddenly get the Map in Shadow normally, but nowhere else etc.
If we want to avoid this, we either have to ban RBA or not force the runner to get this stuff. I'm definitely against banning any type of Glitch, so RBA should be allowed, the current definition restricts already a lot. Because of this, I'd prefer it to not include Maps/Compass/Boss Keys, although it would probably obsolete warping to the credits (for now), because of what I've written above.
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Epona has to be obtained or else Epona's Song has no effect when you play it. It clearly changes what you've obtained and what you haven't.
The following stuff is something that has been used this way for a long time and should be kept this way, simply because it has been an a general agreement for a very long time, so there is no need to completely revolutionize the definition of a 100% Speedrun (at least I think it applies to all this stuff):
1) You have to have a maxed out Inventory Screen (outside of Dungeons) when you reach the credits (yeah, reach the credits, not beat Ganon). This means upgrades can be skipped as long as you have the highest upgrade. "Max. Upgrades" also applies to the Biggoron Sword Sidequest, so you have to have claim check at the end of the run.
2) Your Inventory mustn't be fucked up in the end. Even if you have the power of the Gold Gauntlets while you Inventory Screen is fucked up due to RBA it doesn't count as having Gold Gauntlets.
3) All Fairy Uprades have to be obtained.
4) All Heart Pieces have to be obtained.
5) All Items (Hammer etc.) have to be obtained (No need to discuss this, because there is currently no way to RBA any items into your Item Menu).
6) There is no need to do all Mini Games (OoT doesn't even keep track of your records AFAIK). Most Mini Games have to be played to obtain upgrades or Heart Pieces anyway.
7) All Songs have to be learned the normal way during your speed run. In theory you could RBA Songs to save time, but you'd still have to learn them at some point in the game. This makes sense, because a Cutscene Trigger is gone after watching the cutscene.
8) You have to collect all Golden Skulltulas the normal way.
9) There is no need to plant every Magic Bean in the game.
10) There's no need to open every chest in the game, neither do you have to get every single dungeon key.
11) There's no need to buy all bombchus in the Hyrule Bombchu Shop (You can only buy each set once if I remember correctly)
12) The Mask Sidequest has to be completed.
13) Epona has to be obtained.
14) The bottles have to be obtained the normal way. In theory you can RBA the bottles before hand to save time, no idea how it would save any, though.
Now let's get to the grey areas. Thanks to the above definitions, many grey areas are already gone or became a lot smaller. If we set above definitions as general rules, then stuff like "all keys" doesn't have a place in the following list:
- Is it necessary to obtain Maps/Compasses/Boss Keys? If you argue, that you need most Skulltulas, because your Dungeon Map Screen shows them after you've collected them, then you clearly need those as well. Because of definition 1 it would make sense to get them.
- Do you have to beat every Boss? This correlates which RBA, so I'll get to this later on
- Are you allowed to Warp to the credits and thus skip Ganon? This doesn't need RBA.
- What can RBA be used for? Above definitions limit the ability of RBA a lot already, here are the main problems:
* You could RBA most medaillons. Due to having to get the Dungeon Items, losing the Light Medaillon in the process and the cutscene skips this should definitely be slower anyway. Other than that we can even skip the broken Biggoron Sword thanks to being able to get the Eyeball Frog early, so RBAing Medaillons is even further out of the way. This also applies to Song RBAing.
* Would it be allowed to RBA Dungeon Items like Boss Keys? It is very easy to RBA them, so those are not out of the way.
* Would it be allowed to RBA stuff from the Equipment Screen? As there are 2 different ways to obtain Tunics (you can buy them as well), I can't see any reason why RBAing them would be banned. I also don't know what exactly can be obtained via RBA and what items you need for this.
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We're handling this completely wrong. Right now we are discussing more or less on the base of which tricks should be allowed to be use and which tricks shouldn't.
Let's try it a different way:
We travel back in time to the year 2005, when there were barely any glitches for this game. Now we should try find an appropriate way to define 100% on this base and nothing else. Even without paying attention to the entertainment value, simply find a way that makes sense in every way.
After this has been successfully done, have a look at all glitches again and try to see if it really makes sense to ban any of them, but for this you first need a perfect definition, which has to be based on more or less glitchless terms. The only reason we have to do this discussion right now is because nobody did a TAS of it back then and set the basic rules.
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The collected skulltulas (their location once you collectedc them) appears somewhere on the map in the inventory (maybe only in the dungeons) when you've collected them. So Skulltula duping is definitely not an option.
There are 2 basic entire different ways to define 100%:
1) Collect everything collectable
2) Make your Inventory Screen 100%
In both cases you have to collect all skulltulas due to what I said above. In definition 2 we could RBA a lot of stuff, like all medaillons and later on use a Wrong Warp into the Light Medaillon cutscene to get this medaillon back. We can dupe hearts, so collecting heart pieces wouldn't be nescassary either. The Child Dungeons and a lot of Songs could be skipped as well. So all in all all temples apart from one would be skipped. This one temple would be used for the Wrong Warp to the Light Medaillon (As far as I can tell Fire Temple has to be used for this).
You could also RBA Tunics and some stuff using RBA with some Masks on c-right, but I can't remember what exactly gives you what stuff. Of course you would also have infinite bombchus resulting in a bombchu madness all over the place.
I guess using this definition and a shitload of RBA it should be possible to beat the game 100% in around 2 hours.
One problem, though:
I remember trying Heart Piece dupe in Lost Woods using Mupen and it crashed for me. Maybe this is impossible using the brilliantness of Mupen, who knows.
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AngerFist wrote:
Wow that was absolutely beautiful. I think that is the closest we will get to a 100% run :) Unless this sparks interest for Bloob to start working on a full run. Is Mupen friendlier towards Ocarina of Time compared to Majora's Mask?
OOOOOOOOH Yes my friend, it is. Route planning OoT 100% would also be a lot easier compared to MM, but OoT 100% in general shouldn't be as good as MM 100% especially due to the lack on bombchus you have in OoT, but at least it's more realistic.
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I'm not sure if it is really a good idea to have so many labels on the publication page, it starts to get pretty confusing if some movies have 4 labels at once.
if we keep this label up, we should probably revise the list a bit. It indeed seems rather randomly chosen, for example did both SM64 120 stars and Majora's Mask not get this label, although they definitely fit into the definition mentioned early in this thread.
If it is really only meant to show the visitor, that a new run, which he might not regard as very special, is worth worth watching then it makes sense to list stuff like SMB1, but why's Ocarina of Time Any% on the list then? That category was more than halved, so there would be no need for such a label in order to bring attention to the run.
If this is the case, neither MM nor SM64 should get that label.
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I still wonder if it is actually possible to set up a way to donate for such a run while the TASer only gets access to the money when he really does the run.
A 100% TAS would probably take something around 4:00:00 to 4:30:00. Planning the route would be a massive pain in the ass, because planning out the perfect route for the any% with all the "where use how many bombs/chus" already took a few months and many test TASes. I guess planning the 100% route out this detailed is even impossible, you'd have to write some kind of concept route instead, which always has some alternatives you can do at certain parts if you finish something earlier or also backups routes if you need more ingame time for something than expected.
You'd have to ignore planning the "where use how many bombs" part and simply put a bomb route together while TASing.
You see, due to the ingame time system of Majora's Mask together with the limited amount of explosives planning a decent route is already a huge obstacle for a 100%.
Add in the fact that Mupen sucks (averagely you get a desynch ever 5-10 seconds in laggy places and believe me, almost every place in this game is a laggy place) and we come closer to the reason why this is most likely never going to happen.
I worked on the any% for 2 years (route planning excluded). Of course I did not work on it everyday and always had a few days in a row at which I did nothing at all, but for one person this would simply take way way way too long. We'd need a team, that is a fact.
For now there are 3 people, that are capable of coauthoring such a run:
Swordless Link, me and Sam
I'm actually not really motivated to start another full game run within the next months and I guess Swordless Link is also not a huge fan of Majora's Mask anymore. Sam would probably be up for a shorter run, but certainly not for a 100% TAS.
There's also Bloob, but I'm not sure if he would want to TAS Majora's Mask, because I think he has ever even touched this game. Mitjitsu could probably also be part of such a team, I'd simply have to teach him a bit new stuff :P
Oh and TylerArtrip should also have the skills for this, so we'd have 6 potential people at the moment.
Maybe we can get a hype for this run somehow in the future and gather a team, but for now it's not looking too good.
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120 Stars TAS, everything else would be joke. There has never been a TASing project like this and there will probably never be a project like this again.
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Meshidaru wrote:
Is there any news about the Majora's Mask TAS? I mean, the one of ~1 hour and a half...
uhm, ohm, ehm, ahm, what do you mean? It has been published 1,5 years ago already....
http://tasvideos.org/1851M.html
maybe you were talking about something else, if so, sry.
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grassini wrote:
Patashu wrote:
I think for a run of such ridiculous complexity to route and optimize, an exception should be made to the 'TASes should be PERFECT' rule and it should merely be incredibly, incredibly, incredibly awesome to watch. :D
This.
Still way too much work to be worth it in any way for me as a TASer.
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yeah of course, you'd have all the necessary items at this point. But no need to think about this anyway. Unless we get payed for doing the 100% TAS or unless we manage to gather a team of like 10-15 skilled TASers, a 100% is sadly never going to happen.
The amount of work and time necessary is simply way too huge for it to be worth it.
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Nahoc wrote:
Really awesome, such a good TAS! Voting YES.
TASVideoAgent wrote:
After each attempt I had to play the run back from the very beginning which takes ultra long with the framebuffer option enabled (used to skip the pause delay). Using this option my Mupen only runs at 30 frames, so it each playback takes years!
Can't you just load a state while using read-only?
As I've never TASed any other games than MM and OoT I wasn't even aware you could check synching by loading a save stat in any game. This doesn't work for OoT/MM, because it often happens that a movie synchs using a save stat, but not if you play the movie back from the beginning. Even creating a save stat during a play back from the beginning, loading it in read-only mode and then going on with your TAS on a later frame can cause trouble. For MM it's just even worse.
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Is this one 5 second ad after the Wrong Warp really that annoying to you? It's 5 seconds, you are an experienced TASer, so you should have learnt to have enough patience to wait 5 seconds by now :/
In case this is very very very annoying to many people here, I will get rid of this ad. I simply put it there, because I thought one ad at almost the end wasn't that annoying for anybody.
Btw, you should never go to the channels of people like Swordless Link or Sonicpacker. You'll find videos with 5-6 ads.
And no, I'm not requesting to remove MrGrunz's encode either. I meant having 2 links instead of how the 100% SM64 run doesn't.
I would prefer it, if I my encode stays the only one on youtube, simply because I'm a partner now and this gives me a chance to make a bit of pocket money as a little reward for the work I invested into this run. I also added a link to the official tasvideos.org youtube channel in the video.[/quote]
Thanks Tompa! That cutsceneless encode you linked to is pretty bad, though. Did they actually mention my name somewhere in this video? I actually wrote in japanese in the description of the youtube encode, that they are supposed to credit me and link back to the original video. Is that really so hard?
andypanther wrote:
Grunz worked so hard to make that collapse cutscene shorter, but we're editing those out anyway :P
I agree, that collapse CS has to be in every encode. It's just wonderful watching an almost lag free tower collapse CS :)
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Side by side comparison between my and Swordless' run:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Zu4zowaukk
Sadly, the difference isn't reset to 0 after each section is over, but still an interesting watch especially the difference in the cucco collection.
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Patashu wrote:
(Is it standard to notate 1 frame in a 20 fps game as 3 frames?)
I think it is. Mupen only counts in 60 frames per second while TASing those games. There's also a lot of lag in some places, so counting that way is a lot easier to understand.
