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Swordless Link wrote:
So you can please explain these? If you think the 6.2 technical rating is justified then please explain to me what you think is improvable about the run, because I'm very interested in making a new run at some point and would like to take your advice on board.
Swordless, the master of rhetoric. I'm sure you simply want to "take his advice on board" and don't want to make him look like an idiot :P
But I still totally agree with you. A rating like this is everything, but not objective. That's a abuse of the rating ability in its best, which in no way can be protected by the point, that everybody has a different opinion on almost everything.
The majority of the people that voted against publishing the run did so, because it was breaking the rules and also because they were convinced, Swordless wanted to mess with tasvideos.org by submitting his run using the Japanese version. So alltogether, most of them somehow wanted to "protect" tasvideos from getting a worse place.
If you think about this carefully, by abusing your rating ability you achieve nothing but the opposite.
And if it's obvious, that you hate a run out of reasons that have nothing to do with the content of the movie itself, simply stay away from voting. It's better for you, tasvideos and the published run.
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r0bd0g wrote:
The doors lead to different places depending on what dungeon you're in...
If ganondoor were possible in DC, it would lead to the know it all brothers house. Two problems even if that were useful: 1. have to hover all the way up to the door without getting warped out, and 2. have to get the warp to take affect from so far away, once you open it. The Fire Temple boss door actually does lead to tower collapse, funnily enough. To reach it you have to get oob and hover up to the loading zone (which should be possible?) but doing so iirc requires the goron tunic?
yeah, starting the hover requieres the goron tunic, which is quite a big downside and it would also mean that we couldn't skip minuet anymore (The fire to ganon warp would only be used in the MST run).
The fact that it also requieres goron tunic probably makes this slower or at least I hope it does, because I'd rather see the warp to forest being used in a run.
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Hmm, using this route it probably wouldn't be useful. We die to skip the lullaby cutscene directly afterwards and as far as I can tell kokiri sword is automatically equipped after dieing/resetting as child. Maybe Master Sword is an exception, though. Somebody has to check this.
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some thought about MST (medaillons, stones, trials) run:
I guess as long as we still finish all temples and beat ganon we are allowed to use wrong warping. We also planned the use the other wrong warps to forest temple and gerudo's training ground, so the one to ganon's castle seems as fine as the other ones.
As we have to clear the trials anyway, there's no point in doing this warp at the end of the game to skip ganondorf. It probably would be slower than simply beating ganondorf. If anyone wonders, clearing the tower and beating ganondorf costs aroung 4 minutes. So leaving the tower after the trials, then travelling to deku tree and clearing it has to be compared to beating ganondorf.
But here's another idea:
We could do the Wrong Warp to Ganon's Tover as child and then Save+Reset to get to the beginning of the dungeon. That way we could get 20 bombchus from the spirit trial and thus skip the bottom of the well. There's still one thing left you could do as well: by leaving Ganon's Castle Child Link ends up in the normal hyrule castle map directly next to the crawling space, that leads inside of the castle. From there we can quickly obtain Lullaby without any time lost for travelling to the castle. Pretty crazy route, I guess :D
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there's no 100% TAS and there'll never be one. Planning all ingame time related things is almost impossible without many many years of work if you want to do it optimally.
If there's ever going to be a 100% TAS, it'd probably/certainly be pretty bad technical wise.
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The game runs with 20 frames or let's say "pictures" per second. There are 60 input frames per second, which means 3 input frames for each picture. Usually you can only get one effect for one certain picture, but for some stuff like Z-targetting and swimming all 60 input frames give you different results. I suck at explaining, but this is way we usually measure our stuff in 60 frames per second.
In my last post I said 30 seconds, but wanted to write 30 frames. 30 frames are of course 0.5 seconds, so getting 40 rupees take maximal 4 seconds. It can be done even quicker by doing some pro manipulation to cut more than one bush with one slash and you can believe me, you'll get to see the pro manipulation in this run :P
bkDJ wrote:
r0bd0g wrote:
Why are the results sometimes different (say, savewarping after blowing up the wall and then doing DC WW) as child or adult?
AFAIK, they aren't?
There are indeed different results. Like mxzrules has clarified in one of his posts, the last cutscene you have watched before doing the Wrong Warp changes the result. It can't change the area you warp to, but it changes results like freezing, semi-freezing, the position you warp to on the map etc.
That is also why we first assumed that Mupen freezes whenever you try to Wrong Warp using Fire Temple and Dodongo's Cavern. We simply thought Mupen was a piece of crap (which it always has been and always will be :P) and thus the warps couldn't work.
Watching the right cutscene beforehand fixes this. Now we know that all the Wrong Warps work nicely.
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Spider-Waffle wrote:
The route makes perfect sense, though I don't think there's clear winner for rupee collection like I said earlier, pointing out the river rupees, 20,40, and 60 rupee variants on chains, and is there a reason why bug sell isn't included? If you're already picking bugs and getting bottle on B it's 3s extra to pick up another, and 4s to sell since it's on the way to shop. I know 40r from bushes would take on the order of 7s, so this is the only thing I think needs more precise testing. There's certainly a lot of combinations that will work. And I'm pretty sure any tree would be strictly worse than bushes for rupees, unless there's a shortage of bushes somehow.
There's not a single moment in the whole run when we are close to the guy that buys the bugs and all the other stuff from you. So we'd have to drop quite a few seconds just to get to him.
As adult bushes drop 5 rupees. Slashing each one costs averagely 30 seconds. So getting 40 rupees would take around 4 seconds and it can be done even quicker, because you can slash more than one bush with one slash. Slashing bushes is way quicker than almost every other way available to collect rupees. It is even quicker than the rupees in the kakariko grotto or the ones at market bridge.
Although we enter the kakariko grotto as adult to get a fish anyway, the chest is still way slower than slashing more bushes.
The only realistic red rupee, that could be faster than slashing extra bushes is the one under the rock on the way to magic. We usually don't need to blow this rock up, so this would have to be timed by TASing it.
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Come on guys, like a lot of other people I cannot enjoy this drama. It was funny a few weeks ago, but now it is just annoying!
Spider-Waffle wrote:
I'm sure if anyone has verified if Tektite is faster that LLR. Someone did a RTS comparison without any HESS, and tektite was about 17s slower.
So in trying to estimate the difference, I'm going with a day time system. Bloobleibla's TAS has 16s extra between egg hatch and KV, could be 14s if not getting rubies in lake, and spends 30s where sun isn't changing. ZFGs RTS spends 96s where sun isn't changing, make that a TAS and it'd be maybe 90s. So 90-(14+30)= 46s. So Tektite should be about 44s faster stopping at that.
But for TAS with LLR way, you could 15 nuts and a bunch of rubies for free while waiting and skip picking and selling bugs and getting nuts. This save about 7s for bugs+sell, and 3s getting and RBAing nuts, both will be able to throw nuts for free during KD fight.
So tektite is still 36s faster about. Please check if there's a flaw in this estimate.
For bomb RBA, I've calculated for a RTS it should be able 30s faster, for a TAS it would even better since you can check less bushes and get even more bombs and check bushes you do check faster using bombs.
Getting Well chus is another option but I'm pretty sure that's slower, since it takes the TAS about 2:50 extra to get the well chus, where as you can RBA bombs and gauntlets in 30s and pick up drops in 10s or so. I don't thinking having the extra Aslides before cojiro could possibly save 2:10
So If I'm mistaken it's pretty clear what the new any% ganonless route should be?
It has always been clear, that fishing pond is clearly faster than LLR. When Swordless DoT Skip was discovered, which made the LLR route finnaly possible, we all hoped, that going to LLR would save some time over the old route.
After doing some testing and a lot of thinking it was obvious that LLR is definitely slower, because of the damn egg.
Getting bombs from DC takes quite some time, whereas RBAing Cojiro allows us to get bombs earlier and also skips RBAing the normal cucco. And as we've figured out already we want to go to DC after magic, so RBAing bombs is actually the only option.
All in all, there was no real need to time everything once again, because as I wrote in an earlier post, there are only 2 minor questions concerning the route left ;)
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I can't really tell, synx. I'd say, at least 1 one, though, because that way we could do way more ledge boosts and each of them saves at least a second. But then again we have to die very often in this run now due to the Death CS skips after beating each temple, so 3 hearts would make this quite a bit easier.
There's a delay before the blue warp in Jabu is active. You can immediately sidehop to it and it still won't load immediately. Maybe getting the Heart Container there let's us get rid of the delay, so getting the HC would cost only a few frames. Needs to be tested ;)
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Unloading the Deku Tree area as child link is simple and has been known for a long while. The best way to do it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CDmlCoC_g_0&feature=plcp&context=C487de35VDvjVQa1PpcFN6OrKCkjXcKhAW1YECGJ4_g7GQUFwpJX4%3D
this could be one way to do the whole thing. but like I wrote in my long text already, if we did Deku Tree as child, we couldn't do Dodongo's Cavern as child as well, because beating all 3 child dungeons (jabu jabu has to be beaten as child) forces us to watch the ganondorf cutscenes in front of the market.
Not beating Dodongo's Cavern would cost a lot of time due to not having bombs for quite a long time.
Something about the idea to just grab bombs as child without beating DC and only beating jabu as child:
The warp from Deku Tree to Dodongo's Cavern would barely save any time as Adult, because we are pretty close to Dodongo's Cavern after beating Shadow Temple any way. Cutscene Skipping in DC, Deku Tree and Fire Temple always means doing the Wrong Warp as well. There's no way to the CS skips without getting the warp, so whenever we beat DC we'd have to warp to GTG.
This means, that beating Dodongo's Cavern can't really be combined with going to Fire Temple or Magic. You could only do it the other way around, but because Fire Temple warps us to Forest Temple, this wouldn't be really practical.
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The OoB is well known and the idea to warp won't help in any%, but it's definitely worth keeping in mind for 100% (which will never be done, though :P).
It turns out mzxrules was right and the freeze after doing the Death Wrong Warps in both Dodongo's Cavern and Fire Temple can be avoided by watching the right cutscene before doing the Wrong Warp. Just to clarify this directly at the beginning: This only affects the MST / All Temples route. I was able to do the warps by saving and resetting after entering the dungeon. The last cutscene you watched then is the title screen cutscene, which seems to avoid the freezes.
It'd be better if we found better cutscenes to watch before doing the Wrong Warps, though, as resetting costs quite some time.
There are only 2 very minor question about the Any% route left, which can easily be answered by timing it. The timing has to be done by TASing it, though. That means, we can pretty much stop discussing the any% route for now unless some new pro trick or strategy comes out of nowhere.
As the Death Wrong Warp opens a lot of new route possibilites for the All Temples TAS, we should start discussing this now. In fact, there are so many possibilites, that I don't even have a bit of an idea, which probably be fastest. Here's the first change over the old route, which will be done anyway:
Ocarina is skipped now and bottle is obtained again. This will be done before entering the Bottom of the Well to get bombchus. The bottle is needed to execute the Death Wrong Warps.
Here are the possible Wrong Warps. The Wrong Warps work as both child and adult. (Don't suggest Wrong Warping with other dungeons! It doesn't work with other Dungeons, we know why it doesn't and I'm not really keen on explaining it):
- Deku Tree to Dodongo's Cavern
- Dodongo's Cavern to Gerudo Trainings Ground
- Fire Temple to Forest Temple
As we went from Fire Temple to Forest Temple in the old route anyway, this warp works perfectly fine. It also skips Minuet of Forest. Here's an example of the warp:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zoQtZbBy-FQSome pretty big problem right away we need a solution for: Doing the Cutscene Skip in Forest Temple warps you normally back to the beginning of the dungeon. As we warped there using the Wrong Warp, leaving is no real option, because we'd then watch the Minuet Cutscene. To get out a warp song is probably the best option. We could either quickly get Bolero on the way to Fire Temple (Bolero CS can be skipped by dieing as well) or like you'll see later on, we could get Requiem.
Another problem is, that the Forest Temple cutscene warps you to Deku Tree, so beating Deku tree as adult would force us to travel the whole way to it.
Now some basic ideas of what we could do with the warps and also the disadvantages of those ideas:
1. Do Deku Tree as child again either directly at the beginning of the game or after getting bombchus. After Deku Tree we can then warp to Dodongo's Cavern. The main problem about this is, that we have to beat Jabu as child no matter what, so beating both Deku Tree and Dodongo's Cavern as child gives us all 3 Spiritual Stones and thus we have a problem on how to get into the market again after beating the last child dungeon, because Ganondorf and his cutscene would be waiting for us on the entrance of the market.
2. Dodongo's Cavern as child gives us bombs very early and thus we can save quite some time using them. After DC (Dodongo's Cavern) we could warp to GTG (Gerudo Training's Ground) and then go straight to Spirit Temple. We can't beat it as child, though, so all we could do is getting Requiem to warp there as Adult later on. Planting the bean wouldn't help, because riding the bean is slower than simply hovering up to the ledge.
3. We could do Dodongo's Cavern as Adult and then do the warp. That way we could go to Spirit Temple very fast and unlike doing the warp as child we wouldn't need Requiem. The huge disadvantage is, that we can't do Shadow Temple before doing Dodongo's Cavern, because we need bombs to do the Shadow Temple BK skip. This also would force us to do the Mirror Shield from Outside trick without Hover Boots. Other than that having no Bombs for that late into the game would cost a lot of time, because we couldn't slide everywhere like we did before.
4. We could get Bomb Bag as child and open the head and then leave DC again. Later on we return as Adult to finish the temple and do the warp to Spirit Temple. This would add some extra time for leaving and reentering, but it would fix most route problems this warp gives us.
5. We could do Deku Tree as Adult like before using the strategy to beat it in just a few seconds and then warp to Dodongo's Cavern. This would work nicely combined with idea number 4.
This is everything that came to my mind. In my opinion a combination of idea 4 and 5 is probably best, but maybe somebody knows an even better way. Let the discussion begin :)
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mzxrules wrote:
Why is the quick reply box so damn small on these boards...
Anyway, I'm wondering what's going on with the MST route.
As discussed on ZSR, it was discovered that some wrong warping crashes resulted by watching a different cutscene (aside from the intro) before attempting the wrong warp. So I played through the fire temple to check and see if simply playing through the dungeon itself could change the last cutscene played. It didn't, which means that we should be able to death warp to Forest without crashing the game by either save warping as soon as we enter the Fire Temple, dying and returning to the title screen and continuing, or intentionally encountering a cutscene that does not crash the game or replay itself (I don't know if cutscenes replay on death, but they do with FWWW).
This should mean that death warping from Fire to Forest is faster since you end up not only warping directly to the dungeon, but you end up skipping the Fire Medallion Cutscene.
The only issue with wrong warping directly to Forest is that after doing the Forest Medallion skip, the only way to leave is to head out the main entrance and watch Minuet. However, I don't think skipping Minuet from the Forest Temple will be all that difficult. If you were to die and enter the Sacred Forest Meadow trigger, should skip it.
Hmm, so you think that the crashes I got when testing all the warpson Mupen were based on the fact that I watched the wrong cutscene before hand?
I have to try this at first before we can plan a TAS route using the new warps ;)
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Fabian wrote:
If grassini posts bad suggestions and you want to ignore him then go ahead Grunz, but don't stoop to SlowKing's superdouche level and say bullshit like "smartest kid in the thread" when his post is completely fine, wtf.
Nah, I'm not going to behave like slowking. Grassini's post seems to have left a completely different impression on me than it had on you.
Read it carefully again, he put 3 dots at the end of that suggestion, which makes it sound like "uhm, ohm, uhm, what's going on with you guys? just get it from the graveyard!".
I'm probably totally wrong, he wanted it in no way to sound like that, but oh well: I posted my instant reaction and there's no way to go back now.
There's no need to go deeper into this, it's best we stop right here. Like I said already, I'm probably the last person to want people to stop suggesting the stuff, that comes to their mind.
Also I'm sorry, if my post offended you, grassini ;)
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grassini wrote:
BTW,what are you buying besides the hylian shield?if nothing,get it from the grave...
I'd really appreciate it, if you didn't behave like the smartest kid in this thread.
You can be sure, that such obvious stuff has been tested a lot within the last 7 years we've been speed running this game. And no, going to the graveyard, watching the intro cutscene of the area, opening the grave, opening the chest, leaving the graveyard again: All this costs way more time than entering the job and buying the shield.
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The normal Death Wrong Warps like shown give you one specific warp. None of the 3 possible Death Wrong Warp (Deku Tree, Fire Temple, Dodongo's Cavern) warps you to the credits.
And what would the point of beating Deku Tree as child be? You'd still get the same result as before:
We beat the boss of a temple to later return with Farore's Wind on B to do the final warp.
Doing the Deku Tree as child would take way longer than doing DC as Adult. You'd have to watch the Deku Tree CS and all that stuff and the temple itself is also not faster than DC as Adult. Other than that returning to Deku Tree after getting Farore's Wind on B is way slower than going to Dododngo's Cavern.
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Another stick is out of question, the extra 10 rupees are simply way too far out of the way.
Spider-Waffle wrote:
Are we sure there isn't a way to kill KD or finish forest temple with FW on B, such as hammer or skip to warp in forest temple as child? And can you use forest temple instead of DC? Can you get FW on B as child?
We can use either Deku tree, Dodongo's Cavern or Fire Temple. Forest Temple and all other temples don't allow any Wrong Warp glitches.
Fire Temple can only be beaten with the Megaton Hammer (Volvagia can't be beaten without it) and there's no item in the whole game that takes as long to get as the hammer. So getting hammer to either beat Fire Temple or any other boss with FW on B is definitely slower.
Gohma can only be hit with a Deku Stick and one of the Swords. Deku Stick can't be used as Adult and having FW on B also makes it impossible to use any of the swords. And yes, all items including bombs, Light Arrows etc. have been tested.
Same thing for King Dodongo. He doesn't die if you don't hit him with a sword or a stick at least one time.
And think about your suggestion, Spider-Waffle! If there was a way to get FW on B as child it would definitely be quickest and we'd be using it for a while now. So no, there's no way. BA doesn't work for Child Link, because the Kokiri Sword is automatically equipped to the B button when you get child again after being Adult Link. In fact, it is even put on to your B button without having the Kokiri Sword ;)
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grassini wrote:
is getting the red rupee on zora river under that little land bridge an option?how much faster is the other(the blue rupee way)?are there no tricks like deku jumpslash HESS(is that the name for the swimming version of the waterslide,sorry im not sure) available to go faster on zora river,enabling to speed up the red rupee route?
this is actually a brilliant idea. Getting 20 rupees from either the bridge or the grotto takes something around 8 seconds, whereas getting those 20 will definitely not take that long.
There's a problem, though:
Those 20 rupees are pretty far out of the normal swimming way, so we'd have to skip a lot of swimming where we get 13 rupees on the way just to reach those 20. I'll test tomorrow if I can find a nice way to collect both those 13 rupees and the red rupee ;)
We could do lots of slides, if we had the sword like shown here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=86GDhxOzHDI
But like I said already, getting the deku stick instead of the sword is definitely quicker. The sword simply takes way too long to get.
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Phallosvogel wrote:
Acheron86 wrote:
Slowking is a talented TASer(...)
I have yet to see this.
Im with Spider Waffle here. Slowkings attitude is just not right. This is not the first time I notice him flouting people who have not the knowledge he has. I remember his claims that a Wind Waker TAS would just be impossible whilst it is being worked on right now (and don't get me started on the whole J ROM debate. It doesnt matter what side youre on as long as you calmly present your opinions in a respectful order, which he rarely did).
I dont want to get in the Zelda Pros faces. Mr. Grunz for example has a real nice attitude while dealing with people who talk about impossible suggestions. This is not a problem with the ZSR community. This is just a problem with Slowking I have been noticing and Im sure Im not alone with that opinion.
He really isnt helping thje progress for any run around here, as far I know.
If, however, Im wrong about that and people can show me exactly WHY I#m wrong I would be glad if you could point me in the right direction.
Slowking is no TASer, but I still talk a lot with him. We planned the Majora's Mask route and the All Temples TAS route of Swordless Link's TAS together, so apart from the people who TASed the game, he contributed probably most to those 2 TASes.
But I'm still on your side when it comes to the insulting. No matter how annoyed you are about anybody, you should always try to keep calm and especially when we are discussing something you should write in a factual style. This should actually be way easier on the internet than in real life, because usually you don't post here in the heat of the moment ;)
So here some updates on the route planning:
First off Slowking and I came up with a route using Stick on B, which chould have easily been able to beat the traditional route, which uses the Light Arrow CS to BA. One problem appeared, though: We planned to go directly to Kakariko after escaping the forest and get bombchus there. Afterwards we wanted to go Hyrule Castle and get Lullaby. As ingame time also progress during Intro Cutscenes of most areas, which is the case for the Outside Hyrule Castle CS, we cannot arrive at the castle before it gets night.
Avoiding this by changing the route completely costs probably too much time and makes the whole concept of beating Forest Temple to do BA slower. And like I said already, I won't TAS a route using Deku Stick on B when it is slower than the traditional route. Despite the fact it would be super entertaining, the controversies it would cause are way too big to make it worth doing, although it is slower.
So here we are back at traditional route, which is very similar to the route Bloobiebla used in his Any% TAS published on this site.
There's no question on how the Adult route will be done. The whole trading quest will be done the same way and Dodongo's Cavern will be done after magic. We will equip thr Master Sword over Bottle on B again to be able to kill King Dodongo.
After that we warp to Lake Hylia, where we steal the rod once again, and then head to Gerudo Valley to finish the RBA sequence. Watching the Master Sword cutscene afterwards with Bottle on B and 13 Deku Nuts will give us Farore's Wind on B.
It is still not clear how we are going to do the Child Section, though. Just to make it clear before hand, up until leaving Kokiri Forest buying the Deku Stick instead of obtaining the Kokiri Sword is 29 seconds quicker. This is no estimation, I TASed both routes.
How the Child route will be done in the end depends mainly on how we get Deku Nuts. But let's look at another thing at first: Is there really no item than Deku Nuts we could use to BA?
Here's a list of linked items:
Fairy - Deku Sticks
Full Milk - Bombs
Poe - Bombchus
Fish - Deku Nuts
Ruto's Letter - Arrows
Big Poe - Deku Seeds
Looking at this list, Deku Nuts is really the only thing we can easily get. Deku Nuts is linked to Fish and the only nice place to get a fish from is the grotto in Kakariko. The only time we get close to the grotto is when we trade the Odd Mushroom for the Odd Potion. In order to RBA the fish, we have to put it on to c-right and afterwards switch trading items back to c-right again. The goal would be to have the 20 Deku Nuts before fighting King Dodongo, because we can easily waste 7 nuts during the battle without loosing time. Thus RBAing Nuts would be done right before RBAing Poacher's Saw, which would add 2 pauses. Each pause takes 3 seconds, so alltogether we'd lose 6 seconds by RBAing them.
To answer the question whether RBAing them or getting 3 drops is quicker, I have to know from which trees you can get the nuts and if you can get more than 1 drop from each tree. I hope someone can help me on this.
Because getting the first drop from a tree is way quicker than collecting extra rupees and buying them as child, the Kokiri Sword has no advantage anymore when it comes to collecting the extra 15 rupees as child, which it had before.
This means getting just 1 Deku Stick instead of the Kokiri Sword is way quicker, because the sword can't save 29 seconds by doing slides and slashing cuccos.
Now that it is also clear, that we get Deku Stick as child, there are really only 2 questions left:
- Like I said before, we don't know whether RBAing Deku Nuts or getting 2 extra drops from trees is faster (important note: you must have Deku Nuts in your inventory to be able to RBA them)
- We need 80 rupees to buy the Hylian Shield as child, so what is the best place to get them from? There are 60 rupees at the Market bridge (only 40 can be obtained by one jump), 20 in the grotto in Kakariko, 5 on the way too Lost Woods and 13-18 in Zora's River depending on the route you choose. Thinking about it, getting 5 in Lost Woods (costs 0 frames), 15 in Zora's River (should only cost very minor frames compared to the fastest route through the river) and either 60 from the bridge or 20 from the grotto and 40 from the bridge. All in all whether bridge twice or getting the grotto chest is quicker is the last other thing which has to be timed.
If you notice anything that could be done faster than what I said be free to tell me ;)
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that "do it during waiting for the egg to hatch" is one of the things some people are annoyed of, spider-waffle. You've been told to watch Bloobiebla's run several times and if you had done so, you'd know that the egg hatches before arriving at Kakariko, so there's no "waiting for the egg to hatch".
Are we sure, that nuts drop from trees without having nuts? If not, the best time to buy them is definitely as child at the shop in the market. We buy the Hylian Shield at this time and we can simply buy some nuts as well.
And yes, 95 rupees can be collected very easily. there are 60 rupees at the bridge, 20 rupees in the kakariko grotto and the rest can be obtained while swimming down Zora's River.
