Aside the already discussed points, something bugs me.
wwmarx wrote:
I am still disappointed that it is the GG version being run.
The Jungle-2 version of SMS is very complicated. The scroller does not follow and have to jump without seeing. I chose the version of GG, which is faster on several points.
I'll quote myself and Flygon in the other Sonic 1 submission:
Flygon wrote:
It is a TAS, jumping without seeing means NOTHING.
OmegaWatcher wrote:
Ah, the eternal SMS Vs GG debate.
Well, the way I see...
GG
SMS
At least you (TASer, player and TAS viewer) can see what is going on in the SMS vesion. The GG screen zooms WAY TOO MUCH in Sonic.
In my opinion, the SMS should be used, instead of the GG one. In the GG, the player is guided by signs with arrows to avoid pits. Sega really should had thought better about the porting of this game to the GG system.
Wonderboy: The Dragon's Trap got a MAJOR overhaul to fit GG's screen. Sega should have did it with all SMS-to-GG games.
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Actually, he doesn't use warps. He just wrote it wrong, I guess.
Anyway, I don't really like hacks that you are supposed to use bugs to finish it, although I like your design choices that doesn''t involve using bugs just to complete the game. Your hack have some interesting concepts mixed with game bugs.
...aaand your run is not optimal, I see you hadn't used the flagpole glitch, for example. No from me, sorry
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Ah, the eternal SMS Vs GG debate.
Well, the way I see...
GG
SMS
At least you (TASer, player and TAS viewer) can see what is going on in the SMS vesion. The GG screen zooms WAY TOO MUCH in Sonic.
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The gauntlet, as far as I know, gives a HUGE damage boost. As swords, it's not mandatory, but the damage may worth it. I'm not sure, though.
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My first language is not English, so please excuse myself if I write something wrong. I'll do my best do write as cleary as I can, so cope with me here =)
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I guess it's my fault for trying to fix the internet, really. I should know better than to try to educate the hyperactive 14-year olds on game forums. I'll just go back to lurking and hope, against all odds, that people will stop flooding good threads with useless posts.
So, you're basically going to "fix" the internet "educating" "hyperactive" members (described as 14-year old kids), just because they're anxious about one of the most expected runs ever?
Isn't that kind of behavior quite rude?
I don't think anyone is demanding the run, sending death PMs to anyone, etc, just the good ol' forum drama. I believe the authors have enough autonomy to decide if they want to finish the run or don't.
The users are just anxious. Calm down people.
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God, I found this TAS exceptionally boring. It pales horribly against dedicated combo videos you can find on websites aimed at them. If you want to see XVSF at its fullest, try wathing the Shidousha No Hyouden video below. There's no comparison.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tHQ_eXFI7rM
This TAS gets a big NO from me.
I do not care if this movie is legendary. I just think is it sucks. The generic electronic music get on my nerves, random anime clips for no reason (even during a COMBO), the horrible effects at the start of the video and quite a lot of infinite combos, the official mood killer in any fighting game.
SDR did only one, and it's quite stylish.
*edit*
Nicos wrote:
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Girls are part of the % count, not sure what you meant
Also after further testings, what determine mainly % is the boss you beat at end of stage (theres generaly 2 choices), the girls like i sayd, and for stage5' theres seem to be no rules since theres no boss there, so you just need to beat the stage
Theres no other character choice than richter or maria, ending with maria is merly what you can call a joke, theres differences with richter at least when you save everybody and have 100%
The difference in a dirty sram run would be you can cut off dialogues, and you can play directly with maria
Also, need to mention, so far dirty sram not supported
I tought JUST THE GIRLS counted for 100%, not only stage completion. Oh well.
Also, I don't really know if you could get them from a single gameplay.
Anyway. Please, please, don't finish the game with Maria.
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Generally, I wouldn't like skipping maxing ammo in a 100%, but...
Acheron86 wrote:
Let me just thank you for not forcing us to endure 10 minutes of tossing money in a pond to talk to some miserly fairy.
But will the others viewers like it?
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...why don't you just make a "new game+" file, with no girls rescued, point in the submission for verification purposes and do the rest of the game?
Besides that, Id prefer Option b
And... is there any other playable character? It would make the run less redundant.
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My first language is not English, so please excuse myself if I write something wrong. I'll do my best do write as cleary as I can, so cope with me here =)
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My first language is not English, so please excuse myself if I write something wrong. I'll do my best do write as cleary as I can, so cope with me here =)
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...and what happens when the boss is killed? the games just keep going?
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On that matter, is it relevant that all emulators used to TASing are open-source?
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Oh.. I'm trying very hard to at least get close from your framecount, but I'm failing miserably. I mean, my last wip goes just before you take damage from the first snake, and it's way slower...
I'm sure I'm missing something. can you please help me?
http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/352055327/wip%205%20t%201.mmv
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Well, the reason why fighting games are neglacted is because with most games you can only choose one character for the whole movie. The movie is trying to finish the game fast with the most amount of entertainment that's somehow still possible. Many people agree that this concept fails to deliver enough entertainment though because it's just one character's moves and I agree too. Shang Tsung is an exception of course.
Ok', I'll quote a bunch of people here, I'm not even picking names, it's not personal or anything ok.
Check this submission: http://tasvideos.org/2262S.html
That movie was tecnically flawed, as pointed in this submission, but tries to solve the "one character" problem.
And check some replies:
Comicalflop wrote:
So both of you quoted me, yet neither of you actually seem to grasp the most important part of my post: I don't find these types of fighter runs to be interesting in the slightest. I watched it, found it to be quite boring, I voted no, end of story.
nineko wrote:
Oh no, not 16 minutes of this.
These replies bugged me. It's like hating a Arnold Schwarzenegger for having too many explosions; yes, it have, and that's the point of the movie. If you don't like explosion, you'll not see a Arnold Schwarzenegger movie.
And then check this one, it is right now in the workbench: http://tasvideos.org/2291S.htm , and some quotes:l
Excelent run.
nineko wrote:
Fighting movies are usually boring but this one somehow entertained me. Yes vote.
RT-55J wrote:
I was entertained. However, because of my unfamiliarity with fighting games, I will abstain from voting.
superjupi wrote:
I doubt this will be published, because it can't be categorized, but I still say it's entertaining.
My point is: TASVideos' users can't stand 15 minutes of combos, but there's nothing wrong about a 2 hours-long RPG movie. There's a "bias" for some genres.
Kuwaga wrote:
I can see how racing games can also be too boring. I suspect some would actually do better with time trails as opposed to full game runs. Mario Kart f.e. is an exception imo because it profits from the entertainment provided by bouncing off from other karts.
Not just that; MK's series engine seems to be exploitable.
Kuwaga wrote:
For the majority of racing games, however, it'd make more sense to me to have every track recorded seperately, starting from save states, and encoded into seperate files then. That way single tracks could be obsoleted by different authors easily. The problem would be how to make this downloadable as it would require an entirely different format than the rest of the content of this site.
That's a great idea, but I don't think anyone will have the patience to code a table for this.
Still, a lot of racing games will not fall under this; Rock N' Roll Racing, for example.
Note that I don't like most racing games at all.
Kuwaga wrote:
For entertainment focused movies, the only valid reason I see for their rejection would be if they fail their goal and aren't entertaining enough, just like speed focused ones get rejected for failing to achieve their goal. Votes would have more influence in the judjing of these. Obsoletion would have to work different, but it would. I can imagine a poll where viewers vote for the least entertaining scenes, then they are redone completely. The most entertaining ones would keep unchanged for the most part.
Judging by enternaiment is hard as hell. Everyone can see why most TASVideos are judged by completion time.
Kuwaga wrote:
As for rejected movies with huge amounts of yes-votes. [...] For OoT there has even been made an exception to this because making a run used to last even longer than it does now. I'd say most of the time, the judges' decision seems reasonable. But of course you can't satisfy everybody.
I used OoT as an example for a reason: the "main" Zelda OoT run is way outdated, faster, but it's not as fast as the "bottle adventure", so any try between these two got rejected. But it got a ton[i/] of votes, being a very popular game.
And "freeplay TASes..." Depending of the genre.
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My first language is not English, so please excuse myself if I write something wrong. I'll do my best do write as cleary as I can, so cope with me here =)
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...yeah, you're right. Sorry.
Let's just ignore this and continue the discussion please.
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Sorry, I'll try to explain.
...thinking about it, both of them =p
I'll quote yourself, hope you don't mind:
mmbossman wrote:
Due to recent topics, adelikat and I have discussed the idea of "unrejecting" a few movies, and returning them to the workbench to essentially get a second chance at publication.
---
Well, after that we had the Saturn Vs everyone yet again.
Please, I'm not trying to revive any kind of drama again.
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You have exactly one example of this, which has been debated into the ground already. Care to provide any other examples?
All submissions resurrected from gruefood and now published. They just got there due drama.
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I'm not. I simply don't people using over-exaggerations and generalizations to try and predict my (or other admin's) actions to events that haven't happened yet. So please stop being so melodramatic about things.
...do you really think we are overreacting? Come on, be rational.
And that's the problem. No one can predict if a different goal should be accepted by the admins, so no "new" movies.
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Maybe it's not official, but it's still a great section--some of my favorite runs were ones I found there. If Alden ever asked for help, I'm sure it'd be offered. I just meant that there's clearly people on the site who appreciate good (or silly!) runs, even if they aren't approved for publication.
It IS. Don't get me wrong. Like I said, Alden is a genius thinking about it. But it IS a wiki, so it woudn't hurt to help him, like some users fixed small things there.
mmbossman wrote:
You have exactly one example of this, which has been debated into the ground already. Care to provide any other examples?
All submissions resurrected from gruefood and now published. They just got there due drama.
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If someone did a "glitchfest" of Super Mario Bros 1, I don't really know if I would like it. I'd have to see it.
But, right now, who is going to try it, just to see his job getting rejected by site politics?
Which is followed closely by....
OmegaWatcher wrote:
Your generalizing is causing contradictions in your points.
Well, taking lines out of context is bad too.
Try this:
OmegaWatcher wrote:
If someone did a "glitchfest" of Super Mario Bros 1, I don't really know if I would like it. I'd have to see it.
But, right now, who is going to try it, just to see his job getting rejected by site politics?
How many threads are being derailed by speed vs. entertainment right now? How many criticism adelikat got for his New SMB run being published? What about all those gruefood resurrections? And that forsaken low% Super Metroid TAS? Not to mention trolls.
Please, mmbossman. I can see you're not taking this "criticism wave" very well. Relax, calm down, no one's here to harm or hurt you. I believe most people discussing these problems just want TASVideos growing stronger and better. Don't be bitter about it.
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1) You want to witness theoretically how fast the game can be beaten, what the fastest known method of input is for beating the game.
[...]
1) This is the entire premise of the site. You've come to the right place.
No. It is not. That's why TAS is Tool Assisted Superplay, not Speedrun, as it used to be.
Examples? Fighting movies. Sport movies. Gradius. Oh, you hate these movies? Super Mario Bros 3's scrolling sections. they aren't about speed,they're about entertainment. If Morimoto's movie were just about speed, no one would get impressed with TASes.
"Oh, he's fast, but I can do that, with training. Wait, what is he doing? How did he do that? Wow, that's impr- wait, HOW he's getting all these lives?"
That's not "icing the cake", this is the cake's flavor.
CtrlAltDestroy wrote:
3) You are entertained by watching flashy and complex colors dance around the screen.
3) Watch a screensaver.
What? Why would anyone watch a TAS for "flashy and complex colors"? Do you hate Barbie games THAT much?
Oh, by the way, this is exactly how I would describe the pokemon glitched movies.
CtrlAltDestroy wrote:
The people who wish to see the "New categories", who think that TASes are not "doing enough justice" to the games, are people who think that there are too many games where objective #1 undermines #2 and/or #3, so #1 needs to be temporarily removed from the picture so that #2 and #3 can be given a fighting chance.
Generalizing is bad. It's not about justice, is about entertainment. Think about "small only" Mario run. Is it about #2 or #3?
CtrlAltDestroy wrote:
The "New Category" proposal was exactly, exactly, exactly this attitude, but applied to movies in a way that doesn't make sense with the purpose of this site.
The problem is, withc criteria will be used to segregate the movies to the "new category"? And what would be the differences? What about the already published ones?
nitsuja wrote:
And it doesn't matter how high the bar is, anyone who actually tries to meet it will learn how to do it and will probably be offered help as well.
Thats a good way to see it. But they need help. It's hard to get used to the TASing tools, and the newcomers need some criticism.
LagDotCom wrote:
I find the SMB1 run quite dull. I think it might benefit from some random walking through walls/jumping up walls/mysteriously dying to a goomba that isn't even on the screen.
That's part of the human nature. We don't have to agree with everything, but we need a consensus.
If someone did a "glitchfest" of Super Mario Bros 1, I don't really know if I would like it. I'd have to see it.
But, right now, who is going to try it, just to see his job getting rejected by site politics?
nitsuja wrote:
And it doesn't matter how high the bar is, anyone who actually tries to meet it will learn how to do it and will probably be offered help as well.
Thats a good way to see it. But they need help. It's hard to get used to the TASing tools, and the newcomers need some criticism.
Kuwaga wrote:
I honestly think that most runs using such concepts would be easily accepted on this site if they were executed well enough. Whether they are more entertaining than the fastest completion would depend on the authors, the game and the viewer.
Or, at least, that's the point of all this. Except it depend of the game, the authors and the viewer, but in a different way.
Take, for example, Phil's Combatribes movie. I really hope this doesn't attract any drama.This movie was published here just because he could, no one actually voted on it.
About the games, some genres are negectled. See fighting games. Some people vote "no" just for disling the genre itself, without even watching the movie. And how many full-game racing games we have, besides Mario Kart and clones? And yet, we have really really long RPGs runs, and no one complains about it.
And the viewers... Well, search for "Ocarina of Time" rejected movies, but with oh so many votes.
Ferret Warlord wrote:
I remember back in my early days of tool-assistance seeing a Super Mario video called "Mario God Playing" or something along those lines, where the creator demonstrated a number of bugs in the Mario engine. It was a pretty fun watch... up until the 50th wall jump.
Well, that's the challenge about making a entertainment movie, right? Specially if you're "god". Quoting Kuraga, "that would be bad execution or bad game choice". It is already on the rules.
Kuwaga wrote:
Warp wrote:
how many of the currently-published runs would benefit from "free play"?
Not many if any. Most of the existing ones focus on speed and adding in a bit of free play would make it half-assed. Those would have to be independent runs.
And that's the gigantic problem this new "category" idea will start. How someone will judge this?
Kuwaga wrote:
Warp wrote:
(In other words, rather than a 20-minute speed completion you get 30 minutes of fooling around; is that really going to be entertaining?)
This is saying it'd be boring because it's longer, I also don't get that argument. Whether it's really going to be entertaining depends on the effort the author puts into the movie.
Exactly. I don't see anyone complaining about the Final Fantasy VI run, which if FOUR HOURS long, and it's full of Vanish/Doom and 777.
Warp wrote:
What I'm saying is that I'm not at all convinced that making a long run (20 minutes or more) even longer is going to make the movie more entertaining. I fear that in most cases it may be fun to watch for the first 5-10 minutes, but after that it will start feeling just like artificial dragging, trying too hard to be "funny" when there isn't really any novelty in it anylonger.
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Because they care too much about their run showing up on a movie list on some dumb video game website.
in my opinion, it's not just that. TASing takes a lot of work, and it's frustrating if your run got rejected for some reason not related to the TAS itself, but to the site's politics.
Acheron86 wrote:
Sad but true. Though it ultimately is and should be up to the runner to TAS for himself, for others, for publication, or for rejection.
I hope we one day see runs of the aforementioned games in these categories, even if TASVideos won't publish it. They'll still have an audience, and there's always Gruefood Delight.
Wasn't the site all about showing the "best" TASes? So, what's the point of limiting the possibilities?
And Gruefood Delight isn't even an official section, it's just a directory made by Alden. It lacks information, most videos don't have encodes or even screenshots. Alden is a genius putting this up on the site, but he has a life, you know. Seeing the page's edit history, no one tried to help him with page formatting, adding pics, encoding...
If people really like this section, Alden should be helped
Mitjitsu wrote:
This thread has lost it's purpose.
Yeah. It's happening a lot lately, almost every active thread in the general forums are getting derailed to arguing about this.
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GG
SMS At least you (TASer, player and TAS viewer) can see what is going on in the SMS vesion. The GG screen zooms WAY TOO MUCH in Sonic.