Posts for Personman


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Personman
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Joined: 4/20/2008
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Warp -- Yeah, I've always known you felt similarly to me about this. I vaguely remember there being one other regular poster with some related ideas, maybe it was Tub? Anyway, it's nice that it's not just me, but I agree completely that things are unlikely to change any time soon. Still, I think it's valuable to keep putting the idea out there. Who knows what good may come of it in the future?
A warb degombs the brangy. Your gitch zanks and leils the warb.
Personman
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While I am all for posting excessive numbers of words in forums about trivial topics if the poster enjoys the process, I would like to gently point out that if you do *not* enjoy the process, there is no particular need to argue with people like heisanevilgenius. The internet contains people with legitimate opinions that differ from yours, people who are wrong, and trolls. In cases where you are clearly going to get your way regardless, there is little to be gained by attempting to figure out which of these sorts of person you are encountering. Unless, of course, you enjoy it, in which case, carry on ^_^ (I mean, why do you think I bothered posting this...?)
A warb degombs the brangy. Your gitch zanks and leils the warb.
Personman
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I'm going to make the same post I always post (or maybe I sometimes just think about posting and and don't actually): [tl;dr -- It is sad that TASVideos does not have room for quiet archival of things like this, and that so few users seem to feel that such a thing would be of value. Read on only if you really enjoy words.] The current publication model is broken, because it leads most serious users of this site to believe that this is a trivial joke submission with no merit (quite possibly including its author). There is legitimate value in runs like this. Here is the value I derived from it: a) I gained a data point about the aesthetics and contents of Chinese NES games, a field with which I have little experience. b) I was briefly amused by the little dude running around and making his little noise. c) I enjoyed the credits music a lot. Other people might derive other bits of value, like nostalgia, or an unexpected similarity to another game with which they are more familiar, or direct experience of gameplay they have heard described but are uninterested in experiencing (or unable to experience) themselves. There is (or, could be) no cost to the users or owners of this site to publishing this video. Several people in this thread do not seem to be aware that most modern video players, including the one embedded in the first post (Thanks, Flygon!) have the ability to play back many parts of a video without playing back the entire thing from start to finish. One even seemed to be under the impression that watching this multiple times was somehow a good idea(!). I spent about one minute interacting with this video, and I am very content with my return (in entertainment/interest) on investment (in time). Of course, under the current publication model, there *is* a cost to both the users and maintainers of the site: the large majority of the site's users are uninterested in this content for obvious reasons, and there currently does not exist the facility to publish this video more meaningfully than it already has been without forcing it to the attention of the mainstream audience for whom it holds no interest. My vote as things stand should obviously be no: it is clear that having this show up on the front page, while not disastrous, would do little to further the goals of TASvideos. So, there should be a way to publish things without putting them on the front page, or claiming that they are entertaining, or bringing them to anyone's attention who doesn't care to seek them out. Yes, this will be archived in Gruefood, but as a mere forum post it is immune to all of the wonderful features that a publication page offers: better searchability, an obsoletion history, ratings, etc. Okay, I'm done ^_^ Please return to your regularly scheduled not reading long, ineffectual posts by me. Oh, and Aqfaq: Thanks for making this. Keep it up!
A warb degombs the brangy. Your gitch zanks and leils the warb.
Personman
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Joined: 4/20/2008
Posts: 465
For me, this thread is where 90% of the entertainment on this website lives. I've probably seen the 0-star 30 times and I'm still not that bored. The A-less run was one of my favorite pieces of video-game-related video I've ever seen. All the random level improvements and crazy new tricks like this one keep me checking back almost every day. So, thanks guys! Keep it up! I am also curious what factors had to align to get this to work, and whether it could be replicated elsewhere...
A warb degombs the brangy. Your gitch zanks and leils the warb.
Personman
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Joined: 4/20/2008
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Only had time to watch about half, but it looked great! Lots of fun damage boosting. And I'm a sucker for games where different characters are correct on different levels.
A warb degombs the brangy. Your gitch zanks and leils the warb.
Personman
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Joined: 4/20/2008
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Hadn't seen the original; I'm really glad you improved this and brought it to my attention! I love short little runs like this that still pack in a couple really surprising moments (setting the bomb so you could die on it later; standing right on the bomb and not dying) and good variety. Also, your technical improvements sound like they were quite solid too. Easy yes!
A warb degombs the brangy. Your gitch zanks and leils the warb.
Personman
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Joined: 4/20/2008
Posts: 465
I can't say anything about Nintendo, but there have been several high profile cases of companies pirating their own software for later releases. The one that comes to mind is when Ubisoft pirated the Assassin's Creed Brotherhood soundtrack for release with the deluxe version, documented here.
A warb degombs the brangy. Your gitch zanks and leils the warb.
Personman
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Warp: No, see, he said "entertainment/speed tradeoffs", not "speed/entertainment tradeoffs".
A warb degombs the brangy. Your gitch zanks and leils the warb.
Personman
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Joined: 4/20/2008
Posts: 465
Derakon wrote:
There seems to be a not-insignificant fraction of people who find runs less entertaining solely because they know there is a faster run. I don't claim to understand this myself.
There are probably people further along this spectrum than I, but for me at least, that's putting the cart before the horse. The previous run is not in any way lessened for me by the existence of this one. It is totally awesome. It's more that this run is entertaining in part *because* it is the absolute bleeding edge of how far this game can be pushed. I think it's much fairer to say that the entertainment of a faster run is *increased* for people like me than to say that entertainment of a slower one is *decreased*. For many runs, even those that are showered in praise by most of the community, I can't sit through them -- it's just the game being beaten optimally, with no crazy-looking glitches or anything. Even many segments of incredible runs like Megaman 2 are just running to the right and pressing fire really fast, and I often skip around in such runs quite a bit. In these cases, most of the entertainment for me comes from reading the submission comments and understanding how every last pixel and frame was squeezed out. One example of a run I (and I expect most people) find much less entertaining to watch than a previous version is Pokemon Yellow - it used to have the amazing "Go! 999999999999999999999999999999", then after that was gone it had the bizarrely glitched and 9-filled landscape, and now you just walk out the door and win. But nobody voted no on that run because the old one was more entertaining to watch -- the entertainment comes from seeing and reading about and understanding how utterly broken the game is. Of course, that doesn't make the old versions any less entertaining, and as a matter of fact, I tend to show people all three recent major routes. Of course, since the run is only about a minute long, that's less of an issue there, but still... Honestly, while I don't think it's necessary, it would be fine with me if the old version keeps its star and is the version most prominently put forward by the site -- just so long as it comes with a note along the lines of 'there is a slightly faster but somewhat more controversial movie as well, check it out'. Maybe every game that wants to should have a 'fastest' category and a 'most entertaining' category, with both movies embedded on the same publication page...
A warb degombs the brangy. Your gitch zanks and leils the warb.
Personman
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This video now has only 24% No votes, well within reason for publication under Nach's 30% rule. I am very tempted to do a more detailed analysis of the comments left in this thread, as I believe that positive ones now significantly outnumber negative ones, but it would be kind of a lot of work. Adelikat, would you find a numerical breakdown of how many people have expressed positive, negative, and neutral opinions in this thread helpful in judging the movie? If so, I'll do it. I fear that sometimes the vehemence of some comments ends up skewing our perceptions of the actual counts. Of course, the numbers aren't everything, but they're kind of the best metric we have, and it seems good to make sure we actually know what they are. One thing I did go ahead and do was search for posts containing the words 'nauseous', 'nausea', 'vomit', 'sick', and 'ill', as Nach had expressed concern that this run might cause such problems for some viewers. Exactly one post, by Pointless Boy, expressed such a concern. I don't mean to trivialize Pointless Boy's experience; that really sucks and it sucks that he can't enjoy this run. But as he said, he experienced similar nausea watching the film Cloverfield -- some people are, unfortunately, sensitive to fast, swingy 3D motion. I don't think the problem is widespread, and I don't think we can reject a run because such people exist, just as the producers of Cloverfield went ahead and released their movie, and theaters played it.
A warb degombs the brangy. Your gitch zanks and leils the warb.
Personman
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Joined: 4/20/2008
Posts: 465
Nach: I've read How to Lie with Statistics ^^ My overly formal tone about the whole thing was meant in fun; I'm not making any claims that these numbers will be borne out over thousands. However, it seems silly to complain that these people might like SM64 too much -- I'm pretty sure all the people in this thread complaining about the camera angles like SM64 quite a bit too, so if anything it seems like that would be a biasing factor *towards* accepting the hypothesis that people in general don't mind the camera angles. And of course, the voting and forum commenting process are if anything far less scientific than the silly thing I did at youtube, and that's what every judgment ever is based on, so... Baxter: The problem with that stance is that if TASers do in fact have some sort of tendency misjudge what the general public will like, we'd never know -- we just keep assuming that we as the experts know best, and that any public praise for a run we find suboptimal arises from 'not knowing what they're missing'. At some point you have to accept that people actually like what they say they like. Maybe 17 youtube commenters aren't enough to convince you, but consider this: the overwhelming tendency of internet comments is to be critical. Time and again negative comments in forum threads outweigh positive ones, even as Yes votes far outnumber No votes (see, for example, this thread). It's perhaps a corollary of Penny Arcade's Greater Internet Fuckwad Theory. When things on the internet bother people, they complain! Loudly! And yet, of nearly two thousand people who've seen the movie, only one (ONE!) has been moved to say something mildly negative about the camera angles, and no one has clicked the dislike button. I'm not trying to argue that this movie is more aesthetically pleasing than the previous one (I think it is, but whatever). I'm trying to argue that accepting this clear 3-frame improvement over a published run is EXTREMELY UNLIKELY to result in some sort of calamitous mass exodus away from TASvideos by a nauseated public, or to fewer people showing it to their friends, or any other bad outcome from the perspective of the site's reputation or popularity. As Kirkq argued, we shouldn't be publishing what a few people in this forum think looks the best. We should be bringing the latest and greatest SM64 run to an adoring public, and that's what this is.
A warb degombs the brangy. Your gitch zanks and leils the warb.
Personman
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Joined: 4/20/2008
Posts: 465
Baxter wrote:
Personman wrote:
I went ahead and compiled some simple statistics from the comments in the youtube thread.
Getting statistics from youtube isn't very useful as people aren't comparing with the currently published run there. People who mentioned camera angles here are specifically comparing the angles in this run with the ones in the published run.
First, that's not entirely true -- a few of the commenters were explicitly comparing to the previous run, being subscribers to the relevant youtube channels. Second, that's not the issue I was addressing -- Kirkq said
Kirkq wrote:
I personally think the goal of the site should be to feature the best movie to a general audience of 10,000+ instead of presenting something "different" to the 100 or so people who constantly follow the Mario 64 TASing scene. You're welcome to disagree.
which is basically the *opposite* of your point -- the experiment was specifically to see whether a general audience was disturbed by the camera angles in the *absence* of prior experience with the run. Of course, you could argue that viewers with no prior experience don't know what they're missing, and it's our job to make sure they get the very best. But a lot of people have been making very strong claims that the camera is 'nauseating', or 'ruins' the run, or renders it too confusing to enjoy, and I think it's pretty clear from the youtube comments that that is not an opinion widely held outside of this forum. Of course, the run hasn't been well publicized yet, and 18 is an admittedly small sample size compared to the tens of thousands of potential viewers Kirkq predicts. But on the other hand, 17:1 is a pretty significant result, and I see no real reason why this sample, small though it be, shouldn't be roughly representative of the outside viewership at large.
A warb degombs the brangy. Your gitch zanks and leils the warb.
Personman
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Joined: 4/20/2008
Posts: 465
Inspired by Inzult's post above, I went ahead and compiled some simple statistics from the comments in the youtube thread. I categorized each post I could possibly construe as expressing some kind of opinion on the run into one of four categories: Pos-No-Mention: Positive comment on the run; no mention of camera angles. Pos-Mention: Positive comment on the camera angles in particular. Neg-No-Mention: Negative comment on the run; no mention of camera angles. Neg-Mention: Negative comment on the camera angles in particular. All posts observed fit neatly into one of these categories, or clearly expressed no opinion (either argument between TASers, confusion from youtube users who are unfamiliar with TASes, explanations in response to the preceeding, or irrelevant exclamations regarding cake). Here is the breakdown: Pos-No-Mention: 14 Pos-Mention: 3 Neg-No-Mention: 0 Neg-Mention: 1 I agree that wider-audience appreciation is a good metric to go by. I'll let these results speak for themselves as to whether or not this movie qualifies on that axis. EDIT: It should also be noted that as of the time of this writing, the video has 1680 views. If we assume that 95% of those views are unique (I have no idea how good an assumption that is; I know I watched it twice) then 3.4% (55) of the viewers were motivated to log into youtube and press the 'like' button, while 0% (0) of the viewers were similarly motivated to press the 'dislike' button.
A warb degombs the brangy. Your gitch zanks and leils the warb.
Personman
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Posts: 465
This was nice and I'll vote yes. I'm mainly posting to bring your attention to this amusing (and possibly recommended!?) screenshot: After all, shouldn't a screenshot strive to be representative of the majority of the run? :P
A warb degombs the brangy. Your gitch zanks and leils the warb.
Personman
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Warp wrote:
Personman wrote:
Now that this movie exists, I'll definitely show it instead: I loved these new camera angles! And especially the zooming in and out in time with the sound effects! Why on earth do you need to see exactly where mario is going? The point is he's zooming around crazily and beating the game in five minutes.
You make it sound like sarcasm.
I really didn't mean to; sorry it came across that way. I honestly thought this movie was awesome. Maybe zooms in and out aren't for everybody (they worked for me but I understand it might make someone nauseous) but aesthetic movements sync'd to game sound and music is something I *really* want to see more of in TASes. I think this is a huge step in the right direction, and it makes me really sad to see so many people disliking it, as I think it will discourage future authors from trying out creative stuff in 2d runs where it wouldn't bother people.
A warb degombs the brangy. Your gitch zanks and leils the warb.
Personman
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Voting yes, but I think this argument points to an endemic problem with the publication system, which someone brought up already in the context of author attribution: when you publish a tiny improvement, the entire old movie 'goes away' from the perspective of a casual viewer who arrives at the site and doesn't know which of the 17 previous iterations of a run might be interesting to watch as well as the current best. When I introduce people to TASes, I tend to show them the old Brain Age run, and then the three best iterations of the Pokemon Yellow run, and then the 0-star. Now that this movie exists, I'll definitely show it instead: I loved these new camera angles! And especially the zooming in and out in time with the sound effects! Why on earth do you need to see exactly where mario is going? The point is he's zooming around crazily and beating the game in five minutes. But that's my opinion, and clearly not everyone agrees. Therefore, both for purposes of author attribution and to not upset people who liked older versions of runs, it seems like we need some way to make the history of a run more accessible. Maybe the current publication could have a list of noteworthy older versions -- points at which the route or style changed drastically, etc. In addition, I think it would make sense to give a reverse-chronological list of authors who have contributed to the current major version of a run, rather than just listing the authors of the latest improvement.
A warb degombs the brangy. Your gitch zanks and leils the warb.
Personman
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I don't really know enough about this game to do a perfect job of this, but I'm quite good at proofreading and editing English in general. I've gone ahead and gotten started in this here google doc, which anyone can edit. If you know more about this game than me, or you just want to help out, please drop by! I'll highlight game-specific things I don't understand in red. Thanks! EDIT: This is harder than I anticipated! A lot of times I really can't tell exactly what's actually meant, even looking at the video and the translations. Help from someone who knows the game well or speaks Japanese would be awesome.
A warb degombs the brangy. Your gitch zanks and leils the warb.
Personman
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This is awesome! I too would really love to see an encode that shows controller input in a nice way. Also, for the screenshot, I think it would be funny to take one from around 8:20ish, where Luigi is facing to the left in 2, and mario is facing to the right in smb1 (because you already won, and it's the demo).
A warb degombs the brangy. Your gitch zanks and leils the warb.
Personman
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I wish movies rejected for poor game choice still got publication-esque pages and were searchable, but just never listed on the front page. I certainly didn't want to watch this all the way through, but I watched a minute of it, and I'm glad I did. Just learning that the game exists and what it looks like if half of that; seeing for a few seconds the blatant ease with which it is broken is the other half. Of course it's not lost forever or anything, it's here in the forum, but I wish the main site served as an archive for this kind of thing as well.
A warb degombs the brangy. Your gitch zanks and leils the warb.
Personman
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I too would like to see more detailed discussion of the game's compression algorithm and how the gameplay choices were made to optimize for compression time!
A warb degombs the brangy. Your gitch zanks and leils the warb.
Personman
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Henke: yeah I know, but as errror1 one said, it's weird that it writes so much different data to those locations. It would be atrocious style to be using them for something else in between rounds, and I doubt this game is pushing any memory limits, so it is very likely to be garbage... but as a programmer, I can't figure out *why* you would put garbage there, instead of just 0. So, I was curious ^^
A warb degombs the brangy. Your gitch zanks and leils the warb.
Personman
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No, I wasn't talking about the number labeled 'Fractional RED', I understood that. I'm talking about the 'RED HP' number, but in between fights - it always blinks through several values in the order I mentioned.
A warb degombs the brangy. Your gitch zanks and leils the warb.
Personman
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Hey, cool to see a run from you! I've been getting back into Magic, and thinking about returning to MTGS Forum Games someday... you still hang out there? Anyway this was pretty cool! I may have found the explanation more entertaining than the run itself, since I'm not familiar with the series or the game, but the run was short & varied enough that I enjoyed watching the whole thing. I'm curious if you know the significance of the values the red HP address takes on between rounds - it seems to usually go in the pattern Large Number 1 512 0 with I think occasionally two large numbers instead of one.
A warb degombs the brangy. Your gitch zanks and leils the warb.
Personman
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I agree with Noob Irdoh. Actually, we should just set 'tasvideos.org' to redirect to 'mario64withnoAbuttonvideo.org', which simply has this video embedded and nothing else.
A warb degombs the brangy. Your gitch zanks and leils the warb.
Personman
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Posts: 465
Here, have another yes vote. That elevator...!
A warb degombs the brangy. Your gitch zanks and leils the warb.
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