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Slowking wrote:
It really doesn't, imo...
But maybe "have every menu-item and upgrade (outside and inside of dungeons) in it's best form"? That would also solve our map screen dilemma...
Now you're just making it more and more arbitrary.
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I think the better word for "persistent" would just be "permanent".
That's too easy and/or i am retarded. Not sure which.
I really don't see that being neccesary. Really what is ambigous about a maxed out menu?
My issue with it is more that it doesn't include things which i think should be included, such as maps, compasses, and boss keys.
Also, i do not think it is appropriate to ban any tricks outright. If we do not want something to be used, it makes more sense to define the goal in a way that would preclude using them. If that can't be done, then there's probably no good reason they shouldn't be allowed.
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If you want, we can just provide an exhaustive list of every single item that needs to be obtained, then define the goal as obtaining all of those, and ending the game.
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EEssentia wrote:
Btw, how do you define persistent? Is the fairy ocarina persistent? Clearly, it is unique, but it is later replaced by the Ocarina of Time.
No, it is not. Neither is hookshot.
So according to that definition heart pieces are not unique... or rupee chests are also unique. At least the ones with 200r inside, because they only appear in a few locations and once you opened them, they are gone. Same goes for small keys.
I would actually consider small keys unique. However they are meant to be used, then lost forever, so they are not persistent.
Perhaps persistent is the wrong word, but i'm not sure what would be better. To clarify, i mean something that once you obtain can never be lost (except by memory corruption or such).
Though that excludes shields, and tunics, so i guess the definition would still need tweaking.
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Slowking wrote:
RachelB wrote:
- Obtain all unique and persistent items/upgrades
What is a unique item?
Are epona and the cow unique items? Well they only exist once, so they must be.
Are rupees in chests unique items? Well the chests stay empty, so they must be.
Are small keys in dungeons unique items? Well the chests stay empty, so they must be.
I wouldn't consider either epona or the cow an item at all.
Rupees, regardless of where they come from are neither unique, nor persistent.
I addressed small keys already.
Also what does "obtain" mean? How did you not obtain a song when you RBA it into your inventory? You didn't have it before, now you have, ergo you obtained it.
Yes, that's correct.
Sorry but this is just the same as before, where you need 14 different sub-rules to clearly define what is meant.
- Max out the start menu without any corrupted items
( - RBA and item duplication are banned)
- end the game
That is a clear definition.
What constitutes maxxing out the start menu? Does that include things that are only in the start menu when you are in certain areas (such as a dungeon)?
If you want to nitpick, your definition isn't clear either.
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How about:
- Obtain all unique and persistent items/upgrades
- end the game
The biggest difference from what slowking suggested is that heart pieces/skulltulas could be considered 37/100 separate items, where duplicating one just gives you multiple of the same item.
The persistent requirement is there to exclude items that are obtained and then permanently lost, such as small keys, silver scale, etc.
I understand the motivation for wanting to allow duplicating heart pieces, but then, it just seems silly to stop at 20 hearts, when you can clearly get more than that, but then it'd also be dumb to require getting 255 (or whatever the max is).
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Even if we allow heart piece duplication, that raises the question, when is that considered maxed? Because i might have to argue that it's not until just before heart count overflows. If you really want to go that route, i guess i'd be ok with that...
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Grunz, a lot of things won't make sense to the average viewer, without an explanation. That should not affect how we define the goal. The solution is to just explain things to them.
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DK64_MASTER wrote:
Just find out what they did at SDA. At least we have a predetermined baseline and less bickering. I know for a fact that they've had this argument a few times already. And hey, it's always nice to have a consistent run comparison between sites.
We almost certainly will not use the same definition as ZSR does. We've even had one of the people who helped define the current rules that console runners use say that it would not be appropriate to do so.
Certainly we can build off of what they have come up with, but it wouldn't really make much sense to use their rules as is.
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ais523 wrote:
If you're going down that route, may as well just aim to display all the text in the game. (This would require playing on (U) so that it would be readable.)
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evilas wrote:
I like this idea and I agree, but it may be stretching the definition of 100% too far: if you get all dungeon chests, why not all keys? Open all locked doors? I'm not sure to what extent to take this, and how much harder it will make it for the people who do the TASing, since with every new requirement a whole new set of complications arises.
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About the strength/diving upgrades, I'd say get everyone of them, not just the last one. No one outside of the community would understand this.
On one hand, they are unique items which are displayed on the item screen, so it stands to reason that they should be obtained. On the other hand though, it's impossible to end the game with them, unless you skip the later upgrades. I think it might not make much sense to require we have all items at the end of the game, and then start adding exceptions.
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- Is it necessary to obtain Maps/Compasses/Boss Keys? If you argue, that you need most Skulltulas, because your Dungeon Map Screen shows them after you've collected them, then you clearly need those as well. Because of definition 1 it would make sense to get them.
I would say yes. They are unique items, and can be seen on your pause screen.
- Do you have to beat every Boss? This correlates which RBA, so I'll get to this later on
Bosses only need to be beaten to get the heart piece, and medallion. If you can get those without beating the boss, i don't see a need to beat them.
- Are you allowed to Warp to the credits and thus skip Ganon? This doesn't need RBA.
As long as nothing is skipped, it would be silly not to allow this.
What can RBA be used for? Above definitions limit the ability of RBA a lot already, here are the main problems:
* You could RBA most medaillons. Due to having to get the Dungeon Items, losing the Light Medaillon in the process and the cutscene skips this should definitely be slower anyway. Other than that we can even skip the broken Biggoron Sword thanks to being able to get the Eyeball Frog early, so RBAing Medaillons is even further out of the way. This also applies to Song RBAing.
* Would it be allowed to RBA Dungeon Items like Boss Keys? It is very easy to RBA them, so those are not out of the way.
I don't really see a need for artificial restrictions. Many of its potential uses will be impossible anyway, due to interfering with the 100% goal. Everything that doesn't should be allowed, imo.
This makes sense, because a Cutscene Trigger is gone after watching the cutscene.
This doesn't make any sense at all to me. We should be trying to skip cutscenes, not watch them all.
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EEssentia wrote:
If Epona can help, or impact gameplay in any or way or form, should it not be considered as an ability or upgrade? Then, by that logic, Epona should be included in 100% as a requirement.
No? Rupees can help and impact gameplay, but i doubt anyone would argue they should be required.
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AngerFist wrote:
RachelB wrote:
What is the argument of not getting an important object like your horse?
She isn't an item.
I think that is a poor argument. Like I said, just because she isn't an item does not mean she shouldn't be obtained. My definition of a 100% run in general is to collect things which helps your abilitiy and belongs to your repository. Epona certainly helps your ability to travel faster.
Does that mean we should skip things that are completely useless?
Whether or not she can help you do things is completely irrelevant.
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What is the argument of not getting an important object like your horse?
She isn't an item.
andypanther wrote:
Epona can't be skipped, you need her for a heart piece and a quiver upgrade.
She can't currently be skipped, you mean. That doesn't mean there won't be a way in the future to skip her, or to lose her after getting her. We may not need an answer right now, but there's still value in deciding on what exactly constitutes 100%.
