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Patashu wrote:
OK, let's try this. Let's say next year's April Fools, masterjun submits a "96 exit" TAS that uses arbitrary code execution to do all 96 exits by teleporting to the end. Is this a correct obsoletion of the existing 96 exit TAS? Why or why not?
Well, that's a leading question. You clearly want the answer to be "no", and I suspect numerous other fans of the game do as well. And on the other hand, I suppose you'd want the 96-exit to still remain open to being obsoleted by smaller improvements.
The question is, is there a clear and objective line that can be drawn between those two examples, so that the latter can count as obsolescence and the former as a distinct branch? And no, the word "glitched" is neither clear nor objectively defined, so that doesn't help.
On the other hand, "no memory corruption" could work as a separate branch.
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Patashu wrote:
And it does. It is the 'not glitched' counterpart to the 'glitched' run. Just that currently it is not well articulated how/why they are different/allowed to be different.
Nope, that doesn't work. The run uses glitches, therefore it's clearly not a "not glitched" run.
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Patashu wrote:
My post above should explain what the problem is (hint: the problem is that it shouldn't have been called '11 exits' in a category-labels-are-comprehensive world)
Well, the point is that the existing run must have a non-arbitrary reason to exist as a separate branch, and if there isn't one, then it should get obsoleted. If (if) the only thing that sets it apart from other runs is that "it uses some glitches but not some other glitches" then that's not enough.
Again, I'm not seeing how it's a big deal that finding a new issue caused an existing run to become obsoleted. That happens all the time on this site, even when some people thought the earlier run was prettier.
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Twelvepack wrote:
Either way, this version of "11 exits" with heavy glitch abuse is faster than the published "11 exits" with heavy glitch abuse, so go-go gadget publication.
Yeah, this.
It's hardly the first case that a newer run is faster but shows less of the gameplay than an existing run. That generally results in obsoletion of the slower run; I fail to see why this is suddenly a problem here.
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In this case, a "demo" is similar to having the shareware (free) version of a game instead of the full (paid) version. By precedent, we already allow runs like that, and I see no reason to disqualify this one just because it's a "demo".
(disqualifying it on grounds of quality is another matter)
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In this case, a "demo" is similar to having the shareware (free) version of a game instead of the full (paid) version. By precedent, we already allow runs like that, and I see no reason to disqualify this one just because it's a "demo".
(disqualifying it on grounds of quality is another matter)
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Interesting. So what's the status of this game? As far as I can tell, the prologue is a short demo of the full game, which has been Greenlit on Steam and was expected early in 2013, but I can't find it available anywhere?
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Tub wrote:
In GTA San Andreas, there's a mission where you need to find a person in one of three ambulances. No matter which ambulance you check first, it's always the wrong one. Pretty tame example, but fits your "dead end" definition.
Similarly, but a minor example: in Indiana Jones and the Fate of Atlantis, there's three lockers that could contain a figurine you're looking for. No matter which order you check them, the figurine is always in the last one you open.
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Inzult wrote:
If you just want to call it any% glitchless and call it a day, that's fine. I wouldn't argue that the run has absolutely no glitches in it, but it's a serviceable name in terms of describing what the movie is.
I disagree. The movie uses glitches, therefore it's by definition not "glitchless". It doesn't help to give it a confusing name like that. We might as well call it "the chocolate run" because the author (presumably) likes chocolate.
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Warp wrote:
However, I like your notion that the run jumping to an end routine via arbitrary code execution isn't actually completing the game. I think there's merit in that idea. (It's a big like if arbitrary code execution were to be used to show the "game over" screen of a game. Ok, it showed the screen, but it didn't really complete the game, did it?)
I think this just opens a big can of worms, because a game that skips past the final boss, or glitches through an important wall in level 5, or uses underflow to get infinite boms can also be said to "not really complete the game". It's a large amount of subjectivity that we shouldn't be getting into with respect to getting runs published.
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Zeupar wrote:
feos wrote:
Radiant wrote:
I don't think there's a meaningful difference between a "debug code" and a "cheat code". Both are basically there to make testing the game easier in development, and neither is a part of normal gameplay.
This.
That is a really weak argument because we have hundreds of published movies featuring heavy glitches that aren't part of normal gameplay.
The context is that (a) we all know that using cheat codes is against site rules, but (b) some people argue that using debug codes is fine because debug codes are somehow different from cheat codes. I do not believe there is a meaningful difference.
So in my opinion: if you want to argue that this run uses a cheat code but we should make an exception, you may have a point and we should discuss that. If instead you want to argue that what this run uses is, because of some bureaucratic technicality, not a cheat code, then I'd call that a really weak argument.
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I don't think there's a meaningful difference between a "debug code" and a "cheat code". Both are basically there to make testing the game easier in development, and neither is a part of normal gameplay.
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Super metroid already has seven branches on the site, which is more than any other game on the site. I find it rather dubious to make an eighth branch.
SmashManiac wrote:
Also, I have a question: are the last 2 input frames necessary? Because if they aren't, I think it would be smart to delete them, because they artificially inflate the frame count. (Not that I don't care about saving the animals or 999% completion, but if it's slower it's not worth it in my opinion - even if it's just for 2 frames.)
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thatguy wrote:
Right, should this obsolete Mr Wint's run or not? If you consider enabling arbitrary code execution to be akin to beating the game (because it allows you to do anything), then it does so faster and should obsolete it.
If this run were to use the arbitrary code to warp straight to the endgame movie, then I'd say yes. But it doesn't do that; it uses the arbitrary code to print PI. That's fun, but it's no game completion.
