Posts for Saturn


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Fabian wrote:
So there is a drawback (slightly slower realtime completion) and there are upsides, which you listed. In your opinion, the upsides outweigh the drawback. Right?
That's a matter of opinion of course. For TASvideos general rules surely not, but if you had to choose one run to represent maximal moving speed and entertainment level in Super Metroid, you'd surely do better with taking this route for reasons stated before. Comicalflop and Lag: Keep in mind that I didn't compare Hero's and Cpadolf's runs with all their individual stylistic choices during the waiting scenes, but "only" the routes of them in general. If you think standing in a corner shooting a charged beam towards a boss for almost a full minute longer is more entertaining than showing off more crazy moves in additional rooms instead, while still ending up with a faster ingame completion timer at the end, then you probably don't understand what entertainment is. It's all about the realtime completion timer for which Hero's run is superior here, nothing else.
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RT-55J wrote:
I found this to be more entertaining than hero's run.
It is, objectively viewed, more entertaining than the realtime oriented run, because it not only looks faster and more diversified in rooms where you benefit from the HJ-Boots or Space Jump, but cuts the last 2 boss figths immensely, and for that shows more action in the additional rooms you have to pass to get the additional items like Plasma. The one and only drawback of this run is the slightly slower realtime completion. Every other goal is achieved as best as it can be with this route.
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Ahh, that could be it. Especially the delay when Ayla checks him from all sides wondering why he looks different. Deeeeeep planning = inichi. Always forget that. ;-)
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The reason he could do multiple CWJs was the Screw Attack. All other things (blue suit, room conditions etc) are irrelevant for this tech. For some reason your momentum won't get cancelled as it should be when you release the jump button after the 1st CWJ, if you have it equipped. EDIT: Simu post.
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No, immediate upward CWJ is not possible after a door transition. You need at least one frame of "warm up" to make it work (the release frame), but it gets cancelled during a door transition, so a CWJ is only possible on the 2nd frame there. This however makes catching the wall impossible unless you slow down your jump momentum to a minimum, which in the end will surely result in a bigger time loss than the CWJ would save.
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Awesome testrun, inichi! I really like how many of the smart tricks you use to save even slight amount of frames. Good examples are the Trial, where you intentionally let Crono be guilty to save a few additional dialogues at the supervisor. I'm also glad to see that my theory to sometime collect Power Tabs despite a small delay is still worth to speed up the future fights a bit due to stronger hits. Your new boss strategies were also very good. Especially the Slash fight kicked ass, beating him with the last character standing. The de-equip trick is simply amazing. I was very surprised to see that Magus' killer attack "Dark Matter" only did ridiculous ~40 HP damage instead of 400. I bet you will save alot of leveling up time before Lavos if the defense will be like that at his fight. The only thing I wonder is, why didn't you use Robo during the Reptite fight right after you visit 65000000 B.C. the first time, to kill them all with one single Laser Spin attack? Not using him there required you one more round in both battles, which is a time loss of a few seconds. Any reasons for this? Other than that the run seems flawless and very well optimized. Good luck with the later quests, and I'm looking forward to see more crazy boss strategies and especially what completion time you will manage to get. Tristal: I'm not sure, but I think the key to make the de-equip trick work is to quick-switch between characters with the L or R button when in the menu, and in the same time open the equip window to somehow fool the engine and allow it to equip nothing on a character. But there is probably more to consider than that, so let's see what inichi can tell about it.
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Not bad, mmbossman. Nice poet skills. ;-)
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Kriole wrote:
Furthermore, why didn't you just savestatify it. Does your any% even exist? Or do you just create randoms smv's on things other people have found, record them as AVI's and give them to us as 'rewards' for countless hours of TASing?
Wow Kriole, so distrustful? Of course my any% exists in one full and legit smv that goes till Draygon and was to 95% done in late 2006 (a time where almost nobody worked on a SM TAS), and all new things in the run were done entirely by me. The reason I do vids off it instead of smvs is because they can be watched by many more people who otherwise aren't into emulation. I have enough proof because there are videos available that show the Botwoon and the Torizo fights of this run, with all their unique item drops that can't be reproduced with a better possibility than ~1:100000000^99, so when you see the smv with exactly the same refills, you'll know to 100% it's my old any%. Keep in mind that I still didn't quit the any% project yet, so posting that run is too early as of now. When I finish it, or decide to give it up, I will post the old any% without hesitation for comparisons sake or those who just are curious to see it.
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If that's so, I wonder why everybody preferred to use 30+ frames slower strategies in this room. Stylistic choices of course, how could I forget that. ;-)
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Tonski wrote:
Saturn wrote:
Their latest WIP (with full support of my one)
I think they would've achieved this level of optimization even without your improvable movie, just because Taco won't move ahead until he's tested all the possible timesaving options in one spot.
Thats exactly what I do as well. The only main reason they improved my demo was because of the new momentum boost tech I didn't thought could ever be of benefit, and some uber crazy Taco-subpixel optimizations even subpixel-master moozooh failed to get. Other than that it's basicly the same thing. But don't worry, we will get the answer whether my demo was of benefit or not when we see their independent progress in the past Torizo parts of the run.
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Poking holes into things only works when the holes are available in the first place. Their latest WIP (with full support of my one) very likely doesn't offer this feature anymore, at least not until pre-Torizo. You are always welcome to prove the otherwise though. Anytime. :-)
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moozooh wrote:
Kriole wrote:
[new skip stuff and WIP]
I will improve even this WIP further, I promise. :)
This is a very risky statement. The only possible improvements that can happen would come from the new momentum boost tech, and it seems that Taco and Kriole already used it on every possible spot until pre-Torizo. Good luck to try anyway.
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Awesome run and a gigantic realtime-improvement I didn't expect to be that high! It looks very well optimized and shows some new and really cool stuff. The Red Brinstar shaft on the way down, where you managed to completely avoid the last platform before falling into the ripper area really surprised me. I didn't manage to do that. Also I especially liked the completely different and crazy Lower Norfair strategies. The way you manipulated the last Super Missile refill before Ridley was very clever, and saved far more time in the fight than the slowdown it required to get before. The other highlights are surely the crazy Draygon fight and the completely new CWJ+mockball strategy in the MB room, which was very unexpected to see. And of course top ammo/health management here once again. The only minor mistakes I could see:
  • Of course the Ridley grab. However you got really excellent Super drops for that, so it probably isn't much of a loss due to less forced refills in the end.
  • The WS lake jump + CWJ was executed with a slightly slower momentum than possible. This loses like 2-4 frames I guess. See Cpadolfs version for the optimal way here.
  • The mockball before WS entrance indeed is 2 frames faster. Just compare the frame counts of your v1.51 run with this one to see.
  • And congratulations to find the direct jump into the shot hole after WS lake before falling down to the Red Brinstar elevator room. I actually used this tech in my any% as well. However if you don't need a refill from the crab below, then my falling technique saves ~30 frames compared to what you did there. As a reward for this nice run, I decided to make a demo vid directly ripped from my any% to show everybody how it's done: http://www.freewebs.com/saturnsmovies/SM%20Tech%20%2D%20Saturn%20Fall.rar
This is all pretty minor though, so I still have some doubts whether a 0:23 will ever be possible with this route. Your run is very tightly optimized already, and I just can't see more than at most 10 sec improvements in it. Voting YES on a really huge improvement to the previous run. Very well done, hero!
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Cpadolf wrote:
I think you where faster here only because the morphball jump in the begining.
Right, thats the key move to get the needed position before the jump through the exit-door.
Cpadolf wrote:
Saturn wrote:
Use a damage boost from the flamer instead of the unmorph tech when passing the PB-shortcut in the green bubble room after LN.
Nope, I tested this in my last any% run and I tested it again here, no matter how I took the damageboost I ended up on the floor slower.
Well, I never tested that myself, but I think one of the SM-TASer mentioned it to be faster in your previous run, so I just assumed it was true at first.
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Thank you for clearing that up, Taco. It's always good to know for sure. :-)
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Damn, this is incredible. I never thought the momentum boosts and the Taco-subpixel optimizations allow for even more improvements. And the Torizo skip, just WOW! Moozooh and I knew that you can save many wasted frames during the high jump before picking the bombs, by unspinning right before them to land on the ground immediately even with a much lower jump, but neither of us managed to have the needed subpixel position to exit the room after that. I thought it's only possible if not using the unspin method, to gain the needed subpixel when landing due to the faster horizontal movement of the spinjump. Seeing you found a way to circumvent that, is just fantastic. Hats off to whoever of you found that at first. Also, did you test if abusing the subpixel momentum boost can get you to land more inside this platform and eventually allow to jump onto the next one a frame earlier there? It probably won't be enough anyway, but I just want to make sure, as it's the only theoretical improvement left to consider in the escape. Other than that, good luck in the further progress. It will be interesting to see whether you can keep the speed-level of my any% from 2006 in the past Torizo parts of the run. Tonski: Morphball falling is only faster if you jump into the door leading to pre-Torizo room like they did. I intentionally didn't do that though, because this strategy makes the door transition a bit longer and in the end is ~10 frames slower in realtime while only gaining 2 ingame frames. If you don't jump into the pre-Torizo door, then the morph fall and the early unmorph fall strategies are exactly same fast in the end, so it doesn't matter which one you use.
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JXQ wrote:
Saturn wrote:
Indeed. It's hard to believe there were no possibilities to get them even with using the scroll glitches. At least on the first look it seems that by better analyzing and planning of the multiple rocket jumps during the autoscroller, it should be possible. Sorry if I'm wrong though.
The reason it is not possible is because Mario's P-meter will be instantly killed off if he is in the air for too long (256 frames). The memory address for this is 056E. For example, the best we were able to get on 8-Tank2 before losing P-meter was 2000 points (the 6th consecutive stomp).
I didn't consider the P-meter fact into that. Seems like it's indeed impossible then. Thanks for clearing that up.
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VolcanoStormWind wrote:
Why aren't you answering clearly to Saturn? Can't you say "no it's undoable" or "it would require too much frame-precision"? You look like you have a little something against him.
It's JXQ. Nothing to do here, unfortunately (PM failed as well). Just get used to that.
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Simply amazing run! It's extremely well optimized, entertaining during the waiting scenes, very creative and fast during boss fights, and what especially shines in it is the excellent ammo/health management over the entire run. The only small mistakes I could see so far:
  • Botwoon exit is 2 frames slower than what I did in the any% (wonder why you didn't use my strategy from the vid there).
  • In the one-way exit of LN, it's a bit faster to not use the morphball jump on the last platform before the crumble blocks, but do it like I did in the RBO demo. I too was suprised that one jump is slower than 2 smaller there, but my tests confirmed that.
  • Use a damage boost from the flamer instead of the unmorph tech when passing the PB-shortcut in the green bubble room after LN.
Other than this minor things, there is nothing to complain about in this run at all. Very good job Cpadolf, you truly proved to be a top SM-TASer with this. :-) As for the future of this run, it obviously shouldn't obsolete a realtime-oriented run hero will finish in a few days, but it achives a 0:23 the first time a SM run ever did, and on top of that shows more variety due to more new items that increase Samus abilities, which basicly makes this run as entertaining as a 100% one, but with a much faster completion time. Also, it doesn't use any pause screens at all, making it a clean one to watch, without any flow interruptions. I will in any case encode this run to a vid and post it online if nobody does it here, but I really hope this could be accepted as a concept demo. This run would definitely deserve to be published at least there, as it represents the highest SM-TAS level ever seen so far, just with a different goal from the standard here (ingame time over realtime), which however is even more appreciated for most other Super Metroid fans. I vote YES in any case.
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Well, PRG1 clearly has better name choices to describe this worlds. We too called them all like that during the early 90's. PRG0's aren't the official names, but as upthorn said, have more variety. Good ROM choice IMO for a more stylish change here.
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Incredible! But don't rush too much to finish it. Let you time for the last parts, to not risk unnecessary mistakes in them. It doesn't make a difference whether you finish it 1 hour earlier or later now.
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Well, in every ship of the first 7 worlds, and in at least 3 autoscroller of the 8th world. I realize that without racoon mario it might be more difficult to do, but it's hard to believe there is no possibility left during so many autoscroller you pass in this run.
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JXQ, you seem to have missed that:
Saturn wrote:
...and especially why you didn't got 99 lives having more than enough opportunities to do so during the 8 worlds.
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Cpadolf wrote:
I got a damn close to perfect KO grab from ridley after a lot of hard work, there is basically almost no room form improvement. Between his hp reaching 0 and the first small explosion on him getting visible it takes only 59 frames (would be interesting if Saturn could check how long it took in his RBO).
Saturn could check how long it took in his RBO run. It was 54 frames. Doing it with Plasma is more difficult though, because you have less time to manipulate Ridleys position before killing him due to the much stronger shots. 59 is really really good in this conditions. Respect.
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Indeed. It's hard to believe there were no possibilities to get them even with using the scroll glitches. At least on the first look it seems that by better analyzing and planning of the multiple rocket jumps during the autoscroller, it should be possible. Sorry if I'm wrong though.
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