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Looks great, Cpadolf. 183 frames is surprisingly much, and there are chances that even hero didn't come up with such a high improvement at this point. Keep it up!
Btw, do you remember how much faster the new shot strategy to pass the blocks near the Supers before Phantoon is compared to your 1st runs one? It's actually the exact same one I used in my any% TAS, but I never bothered to compare yet. I bet the difference is very minimal, right?
And Kriole is indeed a devil for starting over again. Don't forget to copy Taco's new 49'20 time if you're at it. ;-)
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Great and very entertaining WIP, Kriole!
I'm surprised you decided to use my route, and agree that at least 1 Tank could be skipped. It would make LN pretty hard, but still possible to survive. The good thing is that we can at least compare our runs pretty well that way. You also showed a few nice improvements over my run, like grabbing the Missile Pack after Speed Booster, or shooting the green Brinstar gate after PBs much sooner to pass it with more momentum.
You did a few route mistakes though:
- You could skip Charge Beam and the Missile near it until you return back to get it on the way to the E-Tank in one turn, saving you some detour time.
- Although I got the Red Brinstar PBs after Norfair as well, I think it would be a bit faster to get them before Norfair (when using the hero-shot tech at least). You lose some time in the hopper room and generally from lack of HJ-Boots, but probably can gain even more back in the green bubble room when exiting it through the PB shortcut instead of the morphball maze.
- Getting the Wave gate E-Tank before Spores Supers like I did is a bit faster, costs one more PB though. Maybe you had no choice...
- Getting the Missile right below the Ice Beam would only cost around 20-30 frames, making it definitely worth the take.
Your ammo management could also be a bit improved, especially the 2 lacking Super Missiles at Ridley that delayed the fight by around 3 sec. Much respect to manipulate all 12 Supers of the Elites though, this is surely not easy to do.
I compared our ingame time when we enter the door to Ridleys E-Tank after the fight, and even though I catched up some lost time of the Torizo fight and the additional Missile packs, you still managed to be 201 frames ahead of my run at that point, which I think is pretty good considering how tightly I optimized it.
I also strongly recommend you to redo Ridley's refill drops to get more PBs and Supers, otherwise you will have serious ammo problems and will definitely lose your 201-frame lead due to more forced refills later.
Anyway, I'm really glad you progress that quickly and look forward to see how you manage the LN escape and Maridia. Good luck!
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evilchen wrote:
going back from ridley they way you were going to him isnt any faster or? did someone test / compare? its just a rough thought
I did. It's a bit slower than shinesparking back, but I badly needed some refills in that room, so it was out of question to use the spark.
hero of the day wrote:
okay, that's understandable.. I just thought you were actually gonna put in stuff that was truly new to all of us TASers, not the youtube crowd. Either way, it is cool. I might even make my own demo video sometime, since I have made dozens of test SMVs which I never bothered to post.
Same here. I wouldn't suggest to spoil too many tricks very early though, what will be left for our runs otherwise? ;-)
AngerFist:
Well, if not counting the Old Escape Shaft strategy (which would be new for everybody if I wouldn't post the smv demo before) and the walljumpless Wave Beam, then maybe you're right. I did a mistake to spoil this 2 tricks before making this video, but I just didn't plan to do one back then. It was a quick decision I did only 3 days ago.
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Wow, thank you guys! I'm glad you like the vid.
Hero:
A few timesaver for the any% would be the green door entrance before Botwoon (which is around 10 frames faster than JXQ's), Botwoon fight and exit as mentioned before, the Ice Beam entrance without blue suit (it's much better to see it done perfectly instead of reading a rough instruction), and of course the walljumpless Wave Beam entrance which nobody except of you and JXQ knew about. Also, don't compare yourself to everybody else. Your SM knowledge is one of the largest here after all, so it's not surprising you don't see anything new (this will probably change after my submission though). But for 99,99% of other people, this video for sure contains some stuff never seen before.
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I encoded it to 30 fps only using 4 passes with each taking around a hour, since I intended this video to be for YouTube only. Let's see if I can make a exception and encode one to 60 fps when I get more time again. I will let you know when it's done.
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hero of the day wrote:
I didn't spend even close to a 1/4th of a year in that room. What are you talking about Saturn? Please refer to my old 1.51 wip to see how I clearly did not give a shit about optimizing that room.
As Cpadolf said, I was referring to moozooh's quote. As you know, I'm not aware of all the stuff going on with the recent projects, so sorry if it wasn't true in your case.
Comicalflop:
Sometimes the truth should be said, so that people know what to expect. I don't like to ignore important stuff.
Kriole:
Really awesome to see you are already in Lower Norfair. I very much look forward for the next WIP and especially to see how you will handle Ridley. Good luck!
I also have some news for you:
Being kind enough to show some of my tricks I actually planned to keep secret until submission, I decided to make another small teaser video showing mixed speed demos of the 3 runs I have worked in the past (RBO, Any% and New TAS Demo). It contains some new and never before seen scenes especially from the RBO run, but also a few useful tricks from the any%.
I used Vandal's useful guide to convert the video for YouTube's 30 fps conditions, while still maintaining the 60 fps effect to have much smoother moves:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ewgBGXFR8A
More info in the video description. Enjoy!
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OMG 0_0!!
Taco is herewith the one and only king of Ceres! 49'20 is just beyond me. Your incredible patience, dedication, and will to keep trying Ceres over and over for ~a year is indeed something no TASer would ever be able to manage, and I'm glad for you that your hard work finally payed off. This is subpixel optimization to the absolute limit! There just can't be any more improvements left (except the extremely unlikely elevator boost). MUCH respect Taco, you are simply incredible!
I really can't wait to see you in action on Zebes, and whether you can manage the impossible to save at least one frame over my TAS demo until pre-Torizo. :-)
Also very nice diagonal room improvement, Cpadolf! I always felt there is more than just a frame over 299 possible, but didn't got around to try myself yet. AFAIK hero, moozooh, and evilchen spent around a 1/4 year on that room alone, bruteforcing every possibility there, and now you come out of nowhere blowing everything away in just one day of work, as if it would be the simpliest room to optimize. From your very first serious attempt we could see in your 0:24'04 TAS, it was already clear that you were just superior in this room, and now we have the proof once again. In fact, you were always showing exceptional skills when it comes to generally geting refills in a minimal amount of delay time, your last SMI WIP showed it pretty clearly as well. Great Job!
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Yeah, that PB refill slowed you down by around 2-4 frames I think. The morphball jump through the upper block can also be done a bit faster by optimizing the subpixel position, as shown. Also my Botwoon refills were pretty bad as well, only getting 2 Supers, and even not having full energy after the fight (288 instead of the full 299). Although it's only 11 points, it could still slow you down a bit later, as it would require you to eventually get one more health refill in order to have enough energy for LN. When you reach him in your new run, you should definitely try to get full energy after the fight already.
moozooh on 2008-01-22 wrote:
On that note, I'm getting sick of wasting so much time on nothing. :| I promise to return to TASing this week.
More than a week has passed already. How's the progress?
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Cpadolf wrote:
BTW mind checking how fast it is compared to my 00:24 TAS in that room? IIRC I was several frames faster than JXQ there as well.
You were faster to exit Botwoons room, but overall you were even 1 frame slower than JXQ at the time of entering the door before the Mochtroid shaft, because you landed much later on the main ground. I just compared all of our times carefully, and you are actually 9 frames (while JXQ was 8) slower than what I did in the shown any% WIP demo. The key is to completely skip the platform with the door, and directly jump into the next rooms main ground to get blue suit sooner, and thus skipping less arm pumps before running into the quicksand.
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Really cool find, Cpadolf. That was very unexpected to see. ;-)
Too bad it isn't of any use other than in waiting scenes. Nice find anyway!
Btw, anbody who plans to fight Botwoon with Hi-Jump Boots, here a direct rip of my old any% WIP to demonstrate how to exit him as fast as theoretical possible. This strategy is around 10 frames faster than JXQ's 100% v2 one:
http://www.freewebs.com/saturnsmovies/SM%20%2D%20Fastest%20Botwoon%20exit%20with%20HJ%2DBoots.rar
Enjoy!
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I see. Don't know about you hero, but I'm pretty sure JXQ figured it out only after the acceleration storage trick got spoiled by moozooh. It's absolutely required in order to make this trick work. Good job you both to figure it out by yourself anyway. :-)
Kriole:
This is stunning to hear. The only possibility to save any frames would be in the falling roof room before the elevator to take a damage boost on a different location. If you have a theory, I may help you out to find out if it would work or not. As it stands, there is no way I can see to speed that room up anymore. All movements are as fast as they can be there already.
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Yeah, I too think that hero might found it already. Just wanted to make that sure though, and share a new trick with you for exchange as well.
Tonski:
I would feel dumb obviously if that saver would really be possible. It's very unrealistic to ever happen though.
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Kriole wrote:
I'm sorry, I'm unsure if I may spoil. But in Ceres, there is a possible 6 frame improvement, which I and Taco will start working on soon.
This is bullshit. Maybe I would believe if it'd be 1 frame, but 6 (assuming you mean ingame-frames only), all of a sudden, is way too much to be realistic, especially in a place like Ceres.
Kriole wrote:
...what? Frame 16073.
I see now. This doesn't save anything in the end though.
Oh and btw, I have another cool and never seen before, new trick for you guys:
Walljumpless Wave Beam!
This trick I already discovered during my old any% WIP in November 2006, allows you to jump over the huge gap before Wave Beam in one turn, easily saving more than 20 frames compared to the usual Walljump strategy everybody has used so far. I hope hero isn't past that point in his run yet, so that he can still include it. It only works without HJ-Boots though, so it wouldn't be of use in the new 100% route, unfortunately.
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Again, don't understand me wrong, I congratulate Taco and Kriole for getting 49'17 by themself. I honestly didn't expect this to happen before I'd show it myself. This deserves alot of respect. Also I think that hero deserves part of the credit as well, because without his release turn around trick that he discovered only recently, a 49'17 wouldn't be possible.
Fano wrote:
how is you WIP "perfect" (excluding the pre-torizo room) if you didn't know about the frame Kriole/Taco found on the way to Ceres Ridley?
Thats why I wrote frame-perfect Zebes only.
Kriole wrote:
There is more to it than the Ceres frame ;]
Why you don't show it then? After all you mentioned to have "regained" some frames somewhere, didn't you? :-)
But no, to be honest, the only theoretical possibility to ever save a frame in my entire Zebes-demo until pre-Torizo, would be in the mainstreet room when running over that mountain on the way to OTES, by optimizing subpixels to not being forced to skip any arm pumps during all the slopes there. I tried alot of variations though, and came to the conclusion that it's impossible to be faster there. You mentioned to skip 0 pumps for just 1 dash frame, but I don't see that in your latest RBO WIP, which means that it's same fast at best or slower than my strategy.
Speaking of the RBO WIP, very solid done so far, Kriole. I realize now that the diagonal SM shot is only faster with HJ-Boots because you can skip the walljump before it. Also as you see, you barely lost any frames despite picking up one more Missile pack, thanks to the ~50 frames faster ingame route in the Super Missile room. Be sure to have enough health before heading to the Etecoon area this time, to kill every drainer for PB refills there. This is a major key to speed up the run for the next quests.
All in all good job, looking forward for more.
And evilchen, your music video of hero's any% run is probably the best I have seen so far. Really nice editing and graphical effects, and a pretty good and suitable soundtrack for most parts of the run. You did a great job with it. :-)
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Kriole wrote:
I lost some here and there but regained them through 'perfect' subpixel positioning.
I think you regained them only because you got a better subpixel position from the losses before. If you don't lose any frames, you also can't regain them. If you can prove me wrong (which is unlikely though), I would be glad.
Cpadolf wrote:
A question for Saturn. Are you still working without the memorywatcher? I heard some time ago that you did not use it for your last Any% atempt. If so, why not?
I still don't use the memwatcher, because it doesn't work on my computer. It's not a loss to me at all though, because I get every information I need for my optimizings, and to be honest, I'm so used to work the way I always did, that the memwatcher would distract me more than being of benefit. At least for the first attempts with it.
Tub wrote:
It's perfectly understandable to keep your progress secret while working on a run to deliver a run with lots of surprises.
That is what I do. Working on my run. I already spoiled a large amount of tiny and unknown tricks in that short demo I posted yesterday, but I want to keep at least some tricks secret for the final run to make it worth a surprise. What is so hard to understand about that.
Tub wrote:
If you were willing to miss the credit, why did you post "hey, I got 47"15 or something" instead of waiting? It's because now you can say "great find, but it's still my trick, I found it earlier". Which you did say. Before adding that you spent less time finding it and that you're superior anyway.
I'm willing to take a risk to miss it, but if there is a chance to get the deserved credit, why should I avoid after working hard for it? You, just like everybody, wouldn't want that as well. If you don't care about it, then you just didn't put much effort into your work to make it worth for you. This is not the case for me though, because I either do something with much effort, or don't do it at all. No half things.
Tub wrote:
If your goal was to provide the community with an entertaining and surprising run, you'd give your tricks to anyone actually working on a run and have him finish it. But that's not your goal, you want that run to contain your name. So there's the ego thing again, although that's somewhat understandable - but please understand why that's frustrating for the community as a whole.
Again, there is a huge difference whether you just do a quick TAS in a few days/weeks just to finish a run quickly, or if study absolutely everything to the smallest detail to make a ultimate run that will require months/years. Everybody who works very long on a single run wants to have credit for it. It's human nature, and those who disagree are lying.
For the rest of your post Tub, I want to note that all my previous runs were more or less "steps" to increase knowledge and improve TAS skills for SM. I feel that now there are no more practice steps required to start a serious run again. As you see in my demo, I progressed pretty well until pre Torizo in just 1 week (after that I didn't touch that run since almost 2 weeks now due to being busy with work again), and it's now pretty sure that no matter which run I decide this demo to turn in, it will get finished without restarting anymore, simply because every room is fully planned out now after the many tests I did over the years. And that's why you can expect a full run to be done by me in either this year, or at latest in next one. You will see.
Tub wrote:
Oh, and please please erase absolute words like "facts" and especially "perfect" from your vocabulary.
I'm very careful when using this words, but when you are to 100% sure of something, then this words can be used to make things clear.
Example: It's fact that Red Brinstar -> Maridia Green Gate can't be opened from the wrong side.
Cpadolf wrote:
I'm not so sure it is perfect though, your OMBR (when going to the elevator) was as fast as in my SM:I WIP and moozooh's low% project page says that he saved 2 frames in OMBR over his low% testrun in the NBMB while I only saved 1. Crateria mainstreet while going to OTES I also have the feeling might be improvable by 1 frame (or more) with the help of better subpix position at the first door.
You must confuse something. My OMBR to elevator is 2 frames faster than moozoohs low% WIP, which is the limit as of now. Even if I would be a frame faster at it, the benefit would be cancelled at the elevator because it only accepts input at every 2nd frame, while I hit it on the very first possible. Mainstreet to OTES seems unimprovable as of now. I really tried alot of things. Landingside -> Mainstreet door entrance was also the best I could get subpixel wise. Any improvements there would be a surprise to me.
Tonski:
I try to finish as many runs as possible, but I have to prioritize them in order of importness. As of now it's SMR any% and probably a SM any%.
Kriole wrote:
After exiting the crateria mainstreet, I think you can gain a frame when jumping into the escape shaft by using the release forward trick. I have not tested if it can be improved, but it might be worth looking into.
No, I tried that carefully. In this case it doesn't matter how you enter the door.
And yes, that smv was started in January 2nd, so it's pretty new.
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Baxter, reading helps sometimes. I said just a post before yours that "I didn't optimize the last pre-Torizo room at all". Just cut this room out (which I forgot to do before uploading, hoping this gets the new subject of disscussion to doubt about the entire smv) and you have the frame perfect Zebes movie until Torizo. Subpixels doesn't matter here, with knowledge it's possible to fully optimize them as well (ask moozooh).
Also to hero of the day:
I'm sorry to disappoint you with this, and probably causing you to restart your run to add my tricks in it again, but as you see I had no choice to get the facts straight about all my claims here after all. Good luck with your run anyway, looking forward to it no matter by how long your progress gets delayed now.
Kriole:
I always suspected you to have the biggest potential to find many of the new tricks I discovered. You have proved it many times already. Getting the idea alone for this shaft strategy deserves respect already, as it requires one to be very creative and have very deep analyzing skills, because the gain is hardly noticeable unless the entire shaft is done.
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Thanks moozooh!
Yeah, the entire room before Torizo isn't optimized at all. I just did some random stuff there before cancelling the smv. The true optimizations last until exiting the mainstreet room towards Torizo area, and since I aimed for realtime, jumping into that door would be slower due to longer door transition, despite being 2 ingame frames faster.
EDIT:
So now that you finally got the proof you wanted, I don't want to hear any more doubts from anybody if I make a statement about my SM-TAS claims. As said countless times already, I would never lie about someting I didn't accomplish first, keep that in mind for the next time.
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Damn, I forgot to delete the input after Ceres before uploading the 49'17 Ceres smv a hour ago.
Anyway, thats at least a good opportunity to show you the complete smv with full input till Torizo with already many new and ground breaking strategies (especially in the Escape Shaft) that save alot of frames.
http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/609914264/Saturn%20-%20New%20TAS%20demo%20until%20Torizo.smv
70 frames ahead of moozoohs low% WIP before Torizo already. :-)
Enjoy!
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Ok, ok, here is the one I did ~3 weeks ago to get 49'17 the first time ever.
http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/347140916/Saturn%20-%20Ceres%2049%2717.smv
As you see it was 1 frame slower (801) before Ridley (since I didn't know about that improvement as said before), which is proof enough that I got it myself back then, because this frame difference causes the steam to act differently, and thus would require to optimize the entire Ceres segment from scratch, and that would require alot of time to get done.
Hope you're satisfied now.
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What a mess. A very on-topic reply of mine regarding Taco's and Kriole's new Ceres time got moved for no reason, so I repost it just to make the facts clear:
Saturn yesterday wrote:
Ok, time to clear everything up I guess:
First, I already discovered the turn around trick to save a frame in the last room, and actually got a 49'17 myself around a month ago, which was the reason I suddenly planned to start a new SM-TAS in this days (despite still working on SM-Redesign). Those who have seen me in IRC recently (moozooh, hero etc.) already knew about that. However I decided to not mention my 49'17 time again, to increase the surprise even more when that run would be finished. Once again Taco and Kriole did a great job to spoil the last shit out of my run for the Ceres part. I agree that this time is definitely the limit now.
As you can see now, my "legendary" 49'15 was perfect, just without the weird turn around trick that saves the last frame.
I want to be honest with you though (because I'm always fair), I didn't know about that 2nd room delay that was the key to get 800 instead of 801 before Ridley. Great Job Taco, at least one thing you found that I didn't know yet. :-)
(this doesn't change anything in the 49'17 escape though)
So now that you, Taco, finally got a perfect Ceres time after 1 year of work (which I did in ~2 days during my old any% WIP - when not counting the turn around trick Kriole found for you), do you consider to work on a full run now? I would certainly be interested to see how well you could do in Zebes as well.
Anyway, I hope everybody is happy now that Ceres got fully cracked. ;-)
This hopefully opens the way for TASer like moozooh to finally start a serious project without worrying about a unoptimized Ceres segment anymore.
After that followed alot of on- and off-topic debates, partly of whether my 49'17 time is true or not, that got moved here:
http://tasvideos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6512
Based on them, my actual reply:
Honestly guys, I really got a 49'17 ~a month ago. I realize that some people unfortunately don't believe anything I claimed in SM until seeing a smv-proof, but my goal was always to show a new and unique run with tricks never seen before, so I rather prefer to keep them private until the run is done, for a bigger surprise. As you see I'm even willing to take a risk in missing a credit I deserve for a trick, which again speaks against the imputation that I try to raise my ego or anything. If I would want that, I would have posted all my unknown tricks long time ago already.
Tub wrote:
Combine that with the fact that he's virtually worthless for SM speedruns, as he doesn't share his tricks and hasn't finished a run for years. He's abusing the community you like by using everyone else's tricks while not contributing his own findings.
This is bullshit in every way. You know exactly that I contributed alot of useful tricks that alone saved at least a minute in both of the currently published SM-runs here. I don't know how many times it needs to be repeated to finally get clear to some people. And I don't abuse anything. I think it's fair to use a view tricks I didn't know in exchange to the pretty useful ones I showed everybody else long time ago.
Tub wrote:
You can't prove he's full of shit and drive him out, he's too smart for that. You can't get him to be a productive member either, he won't share and he won't finish his runs.
Man, can't you just think logically? Why would I work my ass off for more than 2 years now, optimizing every shit in SM? Just to waste my time for nothing or what? I will finish at least one run for this game. To repeat again, it will just take a while because I'm not a person who does halfass TASes in 2 days.
JXQ wrote:
Saturn wrote:
So now that you, Taco, finally got a perfect Ceres time after 1 year of work (which I did in ~2 days during my old any% WIP - when not counting the turn around trick Kriole found for you)
Saturn, why are you such an asshole to Taco? You owe him a huge apology. He and Kriole have done a great service to this community and all you can think to do is try to usurp some of his credit for yourself.
I realize that quote doesn't sound nice, but everything in it is true. And I wonder where you got the idea I want to usurp their credit. They fully deserve it obviously, I just pointed out that I got exactly the same result myself as well. Posting a smv proof makes no sense now, as it won't be convincing anymore.
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DK64_MASTER:
That 49'15 time I got 1,5 years ago is perfect "if" not including the turn around trick in the last room.
Cpadolf wrote:
That sound interesting, what kind where you thinking about?
Not sure yet, but most likely a any% as well.
Cpadolf wrote:
You don't think that's a little over exaggerated? AIAFK he signed up here after I did and I got here in summer. Also I doubt that he has been working for hours every day...
Yeah, maybe it is. I just took this quote as a reference:
PitKidIcarus wrote:
Yea i know everything thats been going on, just felt to great that he and the help of Kriole accomplished something he's been working on for nearly a year now! =)
Fabian:
There is no reason to be annoyed on me for clearing a case up to avoid confusion.
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Ok, time to clear everything up I guess:
First, I already discovered the turn around trick to save a frame in the last room, and actually got a 49'17 myself around a month ago, which was the reason I suddenly planned to start a new SM-TAS in this days (despite still working on SM-Redesign). Those who have seen me in IRC recently (moozooh, hero etc.) already knew about that. However I decided to not mention my 49'17 time again, to increase the surprise even more when that run would be finished. Once again Taco and Kriole did a great job to spoil the last shit out of my run for the Ceres part. I agree that this time is definitely the limit now.
As you can see now, my "legendary" 49'15 was perfect, just without the weird turn around trick that saves the last frame.
I want to be honest with you though (because I'm always fair), I didn't know about that 2nd room delay that was the key to get 800 instead of 801 before Ridley. Great Job Taco, at least one thing you found that I didn't know yet. :-)
(this doesn't change anything in the 49'17 escape though)
So now that you, Taco, finally got a perfect Ceres time after 1 year of work (which I did in ~2 days during my old any% WIP - when not counting the turn around trick Kriole found for you), do you consider to work on a full run now? I would certainly be interested to see how well you could do in Zebes as well.
Anyway, I hope everybody is happy now that Ceres got fully cracked. ;-)
This hopefully opens the way for TASer like moozooh to finally start a serious project without worrying about a unoptimized Ceres segment anymore.
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Hiding votes till the end of the poll is definitely a good option to prevent peer pressure. I'm for it as well.
Regarding voting for his own TASes, I actually meant the case with submissions and whether they should be published or not polls. This "TAS of 2007" poll is different of course, and I agree, in this case it's the run itself that should be judged, and therefore it doesn't matter if the author votes for his own TAS or not.