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moozooh wrote:
But I'm lazy. Why do it myself when someone awesome like Taco would probably do it anyway? xD
Because you have more knowledge about SM-TASing and optimization tricks at the moment. And it's hard for me to believe that you wouldn't like to improve Ceres by your own just like you do it with Zebes. It's much more likely that the insecurity to not be able to reach my time keeps you back from even trying in one of your TASes. Thats why I regret mentioning my time at all, as said on M2k2 already. I can understand that it's hard to admit such things for you, but it's just obvious.
On another subject, did you manage to save the 2 frames before the Torizo room I told you on IRC?
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Lag:
It actually wasn't meant serious. I just wanted to express my impression of Taco's incredible analyzing skills. Who would ever come to the idea to "intentionally" sacrifice a frame in the previous room? Certainly not if one works in moozooh-style, hunting for every single frame like crazy (thats why I was so interested to see if he would ever find it on his own).
moozooh wrote:
I think the last two frames would be opening the door in the debris room two frames earlier. The smv we used had just enough leeway for optimization of the previous room door entry and the runway before the steam boost to take damage a frame earlier in the room and reach the door in time. I did a sloppy test a month ago, and was less than a pixel short of the required distance.
So what are you waiting for when you're so sure about everything? You're really a strange guy. Take the opportunity and contribute something useful for Ceres as long as it's not too late.
Though seeing how well Taco did in the past, I think he will most likely be the person to find the last 2 frames anyway...
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Well, it is a entertainment run (that shows routes and strategies never done before) in first place, but of course I also aimed for fastest possible time. Though considering that people appreciate this old run nevertheless, and because all the work that had to be redone until Maridia, I will think about restarting it one more time. It's just that the motivation I had when I worked on LN and Ridley is not that strong anymore, due to knowing that the run can be improved route wise. I just hope the quality of the run won't suffer if I'd continue working on it. We'll see.
Regarding the SB, no spoiling about it "yet". ;-)
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Godammit Taco, stop spoiling all my tricks already!
What challenges other than copying your input will be left for moozooh and others that way in the future?
It's pity that you discover such crazy tricks, yet don't try to make a full TAS for this game. You really have potential in deep technical analyzing I didn't see from anybody else yet (as a opposite to deep strategical analyzing often shown by hero of the day). :-(
Regarding my progress, despite strongly wanting to finish my old RBO run (due to excellent luck manipulation and optimization in LN and Ridley) I start to consider redoing it after Kriole found a way to get the "Wave Beam Gate" Energy Tank in pink Brinstar. I would use a slight modification of hero's route and still skip Crocomire to save alot of time that way. But this will happen after I finish the SM-Redesign project first. Lately I was very busy and just couldn't find the time to work on TASes at all, so the progress is terribly slow at the moment. Sorry.
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Thinking a bit more about it, this is not a bad decision after all. Not using the skip trick makes the run not only much more entertaining, but also more "legit" and comparable to previous TASes or speedruns, on cost of only a slightly higher completion time. If I would do this TAS, I would probably decide the same way, since too many glitches in a run often destroy it. Thats probably the same case here, since bosses are one of the highlights in this game.
Looking forward for this run. Good luck.
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Yeah, I knew that the damage power can vary slightly when you delay the hits. Thats what I actually tried to do in my attempt, only I did it on the first combo. And it turns out you were right about the fact that the more damage you deal to the opponent at first half, the less it will get on the last. Your 2nd attempt was sooo close though, that I indeed think it might just be enough when optimizing the hit timing to the max. I might take a closer look on that someday, and if I manage a knockout, I will definitely post it here.
Maj wrote:
However, i was able to kill Dhalsim in about 5.3 seconds by doing j.HK, s.MP xx HP Machine Gun Punch (Dhalsim dizzy), crossup j.HK, c.MP, s.MP xx HP Machine Gun Punch.
Pwned.
It's pretty clear now that Dee Jay is the fastest knockouter. Congrats on a new record. :-)
I might try some other combo variations with him when I get the time, to see if there is something faster than that.
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Although I didn't compare it, I would say it's faster if you don't have PBs here. The gain from the mockball seems to be bigger than the slight slowdown required in the previous room.
EDIT:
Oh, and it's definitely faster than starting from the right of that room, because of the momentum cancel.
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Wow, this is a very fast tech. I tried to manipulate it's damage as well, but didn't manage to come closer than what you did in the vid. I fear it's impossible to get enough damage for a knockout with this combo, which is a pity seeing how much faster it could be. :-(
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ElectroSpecter wrote:
By the way, can the menu glitch be used to skip any forms of Lavos? :)
I think it only works on bosses that don't get triggered immediately after entering a room, but only after you "passed" a certain border in the already entered room. Because of that I doubt it will work on any form of Lavos, as all of his fights start immediately after his room is entered.
Regarding the skip-trick issue, I would definitely abuse it to the max and skip all possible bosses/events with it, regardless of slight entertainment losses. The final completion time is what counts most IMO.
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Yeah, I see your points, Slayer.
My movies aren't pure combo videos, so they can't be as good in that category as the ones shown on SRK etc. And as Maj already said, you will always be limited in combo possibilities when playing against a CPU.
Thats why I started a SSF2 Tournament Mode movie once, in which I picked the 8 most interesting fighters (IMO), and manipulated luck so that they were placed in a good order. I didn't chose any CPU fighters, so that you could control all fights in the tournament by yourself through a 2-player mode. That way you not only can execute all possible combos, but also get different fighters in each round to make a more varied movie.
SSF2 - Tournament Mode (4 rounds done)
As you see, I cancelled it after 4 rounds because it was very time consuming to optimize all fights in a 2-player mode. But in this 4 fights I already executed alot of new and really cool combos which were up to 13 hits. I think this is exactly something for a combo expert, so if you are interested, feel free to continue this movie and finish a couple more fights, so that we might have a complete tournament movie done someday (it's been more than 2 years since I stopped on it).
Maj wrote:
That's why i think it might be best to do a T.Hawk speedrun.
Well, I don't think I could make a interesting T.Hawk movie, because this is one of the few fighters I suck most with. :-P
However I planned to do a Guile run in the past. Seeing your crazy combo vid makes me think it might indeed be worth a try with him. So far I didn't fully decide which character to pick for the new movie yet, but I will think about it.
Maj wrote:
I guess you could also go with the characters who do the most damage. Who would that be? I'm guessing probably DeeJay (cuz of the Machine Gun Punch) and Fei Long (cuz of the Rekka Kens).
I already did a Feilong movie. It actually was my very first TAS ever, so don't expect too much of it. I only used savestates to make it (as I wasn't aware of the frame advance function at all in that time ;-) ), and even though the movie sucks because of it, it still shows one of the hardest (in damage dealing) combos possible with Feilong.
SSF2 - Super Battle Mode with Feilong
And since we are on the subject, I also did a New record in the Time Challenge Mode (already with much use of Frame Advance). It's only one fight, and I think this is the fastest knockout time possible to get with any fighter. If you think it can be improved, feel free to suggest your tech, or just make a faster movie as proof yourself. :-)
SSF2 - Time Challenge Mode - Fastest knockout: 5.902 sec!
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evilchen wrote:
saturn :x your ingameframe count is far beyond a record because you added ingameframes, if taco used the smv from moozooh, jxq, hero, me and whom ever thats the highest record .. yet :D
if you meant record from the clockdisplay iam sorry xD
Of course I meant only the clock. You SM-fellows should know that by now. :-)
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Seems like Taco is the only one who seriously has chances to match my record someday. I'm impressed a guy who never actually did a serious TAS, gets such good results that early. Great job!
evilchen:
He improved the very first walljump in that room. It's actually funny nobody ever noticed that before. :-)
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I bet he's still in the testing phase and will find even more tricks. :-P
I think what inichi has shown so far does indeed deserve a ninja rank already. Amazing stuff man!
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As promised, I finally encoded a top quality AVI of this run:
SuperMetroid_TAS_24_Cpadolf.avi
It would be good to add this link to the submission or the currently published any% run, so that fans can watch the fastest run available on the net so far, without needing to bother about how to playback smv files.
Enjoy the AVI!
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Yeah, I will test which of the SSF2T combos will work on the original and which not. Thank you again for the nice videos, I have seen some more new combos from them. Since there is much work ahead to study them all, it will take a while for me to finish a improved Ken version. So if anybody of you experts wants to do the Super Battle movie themself (I still think you could get the best result with your large knowledge, Maj), please go ahead anytime. I would be glad to see a new movie from somebody else, as my version most likely wouldn't be done until next year.
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Awesomeness! Thank you for the detailed explanation of this combos. Never in hell did I know about such crazy workaround tricks to fool the cancels. In fact I even doubt most of the SF2 experts know about such crazy stuff. Your knowledge of this games is very special, and I, as a SSF2 fan for more than 12 years, am highly impressed by this rare stuff. Great job Maj!
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Alright, I didn't thought you knew about the SNES SSF2 differences.
Regarding combos, even if the j.hk + c.mk + fireball was known, showing it at least one time in a run is always good to increase variety.
I still prefer SSF2 over SF2, because it has 4 new fighters, more techs, better sound, better graphics, and just is the best of the SF series on SNES (which was always my prefered console). You are certainly one of the minority of people who prefers SF2 over it.
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Sure:
Video 3:
Everything clearly noticeable until the last combo. You jump straight up instead of forward or backward, which allows you to make this half-turn hard kick in midair. After hitting the opponent, you immediately cancel it into a air hurrican kick to make a 2-hit combo. This cancel isn't possible out of the forward/backward jump hard kick.
Video 4:
A like you call it "meaty" hurrican kick followed by a light punch cancelled into another air hurrican kick (like the one I used against Sagat in my movie). After that combo follows a "meaty" standing hard double kick which allows for a 3rd low hard kick. Though I now noticed that you use the crouching light kick 2 times before cancelling into the finishing dragon punch. As far as I know you can only cancel a hit after it is executed once. Since you do it 2 times in the same position though, the cancel actually shouldn't work, but you still did it somehow. That must indeed be a weird tech I don't know about, so if you clear this up someday, that would definitely be helpful for a possible TAS.
I think this is a good idea, as the current screenshot is in a too dark location which is hard to recognize.
The best screenshot suggestion I coud think of would be this one:
Alternatively I think Horace's Camp characterizes the game very well too:
Wow thanks for the nice combos! The one from video1 isn't applicable in a run though, since it requires to take damage, making it a non-perfect run. Video2 was best, as it proves that a backwards attack is indeed possible, though that would probably require very good position and luck optimization to execute this on a 8-Star CPU opponent. 3 and 4 were also cool to see, though I knew them as well.
Also I should note that you had equal stars on both fighters (4 VS 4 as it seems), and in a Super Battle the CPU has 8 where you still keep 4, making your attacks weaker and thus wouldn't allow for 100% life bar combos like they worked in your vids. Though it might still be possible to execute one with alot of optimization there.
The backwards facing attack you proved to be possible makes me seriously consider to do another Ken version in the future. Thank you for that.
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Of course it's impossible to know all combos. What I meant was I used all combos that look different enough to warrant entertaining, non repeating fights, because having 24 battles to pass makes it not easy to keep variety in every fight. There are of course other combos available, but they would only be slightly different from the ones I already used, making them worthless, since in that time you can better show some other strategies or throws. After all my goal was to show entertaining and cool looking fights in the movies, not just focusing entirely on combos.
I agree that Ken has more possibilities to win a fight because of many different techs he got, but when it comes to show variety, he is limited and you won't be able to avoid repeating some moves (fireball techs can be used one time, after that they get repetitive as well). Zangief on the other hand has enough different throws and "near fight" combo possibilities, making him superior to Ken when it comes to show variety.
Maj wrote:
I don't think i ever saw a single combo using a backwards-facing attack.
Are you sure this is possible on the SNES version I used? As far as I know it only works on the later versions of SSF2 (not SNES), and only with a few characters.
Maj" wrote:
It looks like you didn't even know about jump-canceling rapid fire light attacks.
If you mean by this a hit cancelled into another special move (like a Hurrikan Kick) while being in mid-air, then yes, I knew that. I just didn't feel that it would be worth to use, since the light hit makes almost no damage, and would only waste some time to finish a opponent. I mostly aimed for hard combos that do alot of damage.
Finally I have a suggestion. Since you are that experienced with Street Fighter and combos, why don't you make a Super Battle TAS yourself, and show us what crazy combos you could do for example with Ken (when you say he can be that versatile in every fight)? I know the SNES version like the back of my hand, so I would certainly be interested if you could show some combos I have never seen before on it. I dare to doubt that though, but would be glad to be proven wrong. :-)
Alternatively I think Horace's Camp characterizes the game very well too:
