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Very correct JXQ, it hits something to the right of it, not to the top (how would it, when it flys to the right anyway? ;-) ).
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1. There is no way to get a enemy near the gate in that room 2. It would be completely irrelevant for triggering the switch, since it wouldn't change the given conditions at all
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Hero, when I wrote a "huge joke" I didn't thought that you could skip the first set of pipe bug refills before Speed Booster, which would make another 10 sec delay, and for sure would be slower or same fast at best. When you first said it could save 20 sec (althought it would be slower in this conditions), I said this is a huge joke. Now that you can skip the first set of pipe bug refills, this changes things a bit, and might indeed be faster in the end, in my few by around 5 sec. The "huge joke" doesn't count for this anymore, since I realized the improved refill-strategy only later when you posted the smv and the detailed explanation. The list is correct, but...
hero of the day wrote:
Soon to be proven possible: 1. The maridia green gate opened from reverse
this will fail. Geting a Super Missile through 2 solid blocks is definitely impossible, and thus will not happen. The only chance to open it is to skip the first solid block by shooting the Super slightly below it, but then you will miss the switch as well (technical fact), at least unless some unexplainable wonder would happen that would still trigger it. But I doubt that.
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Kyrsimys wrote:
Saturn, you saying that something's ABSOLUTELY IMPOSSIBLE is getting pretty old. Haven't you learned by now that you should never say never?
I have never said it's IMPOSSIBLE to do Varialess Norfair items collection in a 100% run (I think I did so in my RBO run as well, and this without even slowing down to collect any health refills on the way). I said it's impossible to pass the first 3 heat rooms with 100 damage points (200 HP left), which is true, since we just misunderstood each other and it's in fact the other way around. But I admit I didn't thought one could skip the first set of pipe bug refills, which will save a good amount of time. No matter what you do, you will still have to sacrifice at least 10 sec on refilling alone, which is pretty much for a TAS. And even if it would indeed be slightly faster than the common route, it wouldn't be more than 5 sec in the end, and thats not enough to make sub-37 possible.
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Not bad. With so many refills it wasn't surprising to pass through it with 200 damage. You did a slight mistake in your test though. In order to get the Lava Missile you have to morphball into the hole. You can't do it without, since it's too low placed. When you get it, you have to unmorph in the lava again (otherwise rolling out of it will be even slower), and since the morph/unmorph animation costs some time, doing so in lava will take you some more damage than what you did. But ok, even then it seems indeed possible to skip the first pipe-bug refill delay. You will be forced to fully refill for Wave Beam though, which will cost at least 10 sec (time I required for one refill session in RBO with very optimized luck). It could indeed be possible that it's faster in realtime, but I still have my doubts it would be in in-game time, especially because of the many forced slowdowns to get refills during heat rooms and for the reserve tank. Also keep in mind that the way to Crocomire will cost you at least 90 more damage points (from green bubble room counted), so without another major refill slowdown you wouldn't be able to make it to him which is another, probably more than 3 sec delay. But since JXQ aims for realtime anyway, and because it's a really interesting route change, maybe this should indeed be worth a try. I think in-game time would be pretty much the same or slower with this route, but it should still be enough to hold 37 min.
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All hot rooms including the Lava Missile until green bubble one with just 100 (one e-tank) of damage?? You seriously confused something here. Check my 1st RBO demo, I required 246 points for it, and this with HJ-Boots I even deequipped when unnecessary, without the Lava Missile, and without ANY damage boosts from enemies at all. Sure, it could probably be improved by ~5 less damage, but definitely not by 146, no matter if you get health refills or not. And there is definitely no chance to skip this both pipe bug refills before and after Speed Booster, which waste very much time, even with perfect luck. If you really tested and succeeded in what you just said, why not showing it to us? I take the risk to look like a dumbass if I see this smv, but I'm pretty sure you can't do it the way you described.
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Wow hero, didn't we had this on m2k2 already? To not unnecessary confuse JXQ, here the facts: This route is definitely slower than what you used in your 100% TAS, because you would not only lose at least 15 sec on bug refilling before and after Speed Booster (which against the constant heat damage takes much more time than usual), but the Lava Missile in the 2nd heat room would make a 2-tank pass pretty much impossible without majorly slowing down to get health refills all the time as well. In that time you would surely get the Kraids Lair detour Missile already. The only interesting alternative is to grab the PBs at Red Brinstar early, and then go to Kraids again, to save the Missile detour and some more time in Norfair by using some PB shortcuts. But apparentlly JXQ already tested it during the making of the 100%v2 TAS:
JXQ's Spread Sheet wrote:
Tests done for early power bombs are most likely improvable by a couple seconds, but most likely cannot make up for the slower progress made during the area getting the early power bombs.
25 in-game seconds of saving by using this route? Just a huge joke, really. It's slower because of the conditions mentioned above. EDIT: Also sub-37 100% run is impossible, no matter of the Torizo skip.
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Hero, as said, you can't hit the switch by shooting below the solid block in any case (which is what you do in your movie). To get a chance you MUST get the Super through both blocks. And this is something that is pretty much impossible, at least at this small room.
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The gate will stay closed, I fear. The reason is this block: Without it you could easily open the gate from the other side. Otherwise you have to pass 2 blocks (the solid and the gate block) in order to open it, which is too much to be possible, no matter what you do. On the other hand it's indeed weird why the Super explodes in midair, but that is irrelevant in the end. There is no way to shot slightly below the solid block, pass the gate, and still hit the green switch, because they are on the same height, and thus if you miss the solid block you will miss it as well, no matter where the Super would explode on the other side. Only thing that counts is the height, not the blast radius of it, even though it looks close and possible. For information, I actually tested this alot before entering Maridia in my RBO run around a year ago, since even though it's a detour from Norfair, it would still be faster because of avoiding of the slow water moves in the first rooms. I talked with catnap and Kejardon about this, and they both said it's impossible with that block before it. And I think when Kej says something about SM, then it's true, since he knows the mechanics of the game like no other.
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Very nice abuse of the zig-zag tech, which requires Speed Booster in order to work though. Well done hero. Hmm 8%? I thought it's less: 1x Morphball 1x Bombs 1x Missiles 1x Super Missiles 1x Power Bombs 1x X-Ray Scope 1x Speed Booster It's 7%, or did I forgot something? EDIT: Simu-post
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AFAIK, the delay of the first Missile must be bigger than 10 frames in order to let Phantoon die later, since he doesn't seem to do so every frame, but only in this 10-20 frame intervals (same for Botwoon btw). moozooh: This is indeed something weird you just said. I watched your parts and see what you mean. However I still have my doubts that it's because of the emulator differences. I just can't imagine why it would be like that, since there shouldn't be a reason for this when the general room emulation is same. While TAS testing on 1.51, I was often in rooms with various enemies and often took a knockback of them, and they always acted like they did on 1.43 with absolutely no exceptions. So I rather think it just depends on your input, and that you were just unlucky to trigger this aggressive patterns at Draygons and Ridleys. Maybe Nach or nitsuja could tell more about this mystery, since they both were involved in their developement.
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moozooh wrote:
There are differences in timing that might affect boss strategies (Phantoon or Draygon for instance; it's been already confirmed that conditions are not the same between 1.43 and 1.51), or something like that.
There are no differences at any bosses between them. The only difference is the loading time, which just may make the bosses to use a different set of move-patterns at beginning. This is not a issue though, since this patterns can't be affected on console runs anyway. All actions that happen in the rooms are still the same, and all bosses behave absolutely the same as well, since "in-room" emulation and all the physics were always 100% correct, even on v1.43, as said before. And in my quick TAS test on 1.51 I couldn't get any, even slightest differences in ingame time when passing the rooms, which just proves the fact.
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moozooh wrote:
Yeah, on a related note, I remember that I have planned to make a reference run for you, but it didn't quite worked out as I hoped. It was when I got to Norfair, I suddenly realized it desynced back at Torizo (yes, I did it on Snes9x 1.51 for obvious reasons). Since all the tricks had to be performed in realtime (I decided not to use slowdown except in situations where the keyboard was an obvious obstacle), I had to use a lot of rerecords and thus couldn't avoid the desyncs. So, unless/until rerecording is fixed in 1.51, I won't be able to devote my time to it.
Man, I really don't get what problems you have with v1.43+. It really is a great emulator with one of the best movie recording engines today. Waiting for v1.51 to be fixed is just stupid, since this will surely take a good while until it's done. I'm sure the missing WIP1 timing and the many new emulation factors that influence the movie recording engine won't be fixed easily anytime soon. Just do that run on v1.43, and save yourself alot of work and frustration that way. Cpadolf: Yeah, it's very hard to manipulate many different Phantoons refills, no matter what you do in the fight. If you can't get it any other way, just go to the menu and back. It will cost you some realtime though, but in-game time will stay the same. Otherwise you will just be forced to slow down a bit in the next rooms to compensate Phantoons lacking refills.
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Wise decision, hero. I kind of felt that you will start over on 1.43 sooner or later. If you are sure that your v1.51 work is perfect, all you have to do is to copy it's input in the new run. That way you will catch up your old run in no time. And a direct comparison to your old run, including a possible sub-40 in realtime are nice features as well.
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Highly impressive stuff, Cpadolf! I already suspected that this room is improveable by more than just 2 frames (which I gained in my sloppy Snes9x v1.51 test run a week ago), since it's the only one where your speed is mainly depending on the acting of the enemies instead of Samus general moves. I think this demonstration killed the last doubts about how great you do at TASing already. Keep it up!
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Cpadolf wrote:
It will be interesting to see if Saturn have known about these newly invented strategies of yours, after all he constantly claims to know things we don't.
The chances for that are around 99% at least. :-)
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Man Baxter, I saw your recent replay on Normal Mode with the 142000000+ score, it's really unbelieveable how awesome your Tetris skills are! This is so fast and precise that it's hard to imagine how a human can have such fast reflexes in every situation in realtime. Other than that you seem to just have a huge experience in this game and a extremely good intuition to know immediately where to optimaly place each brick. Good job. I'm highly impressed.
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Post subject: Snes9x v1.51 Warning regarding SM-TASing
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Ok, I tested some sloppy Super Metroid TASing on Snes9x v1.51 by now, and I experienced the same desync problems hero stated before. The savestates get to about 80% incompatible, and if one works, there are still 50% chances that the run would desync when recording from it. I guess it's because the savestates don't give 100% the same conditions a playback from beginning would, probably because of all this new emulation changes that delay door transitions and loading scenes. So basicly you are forced to playback the run from the very beginning after every room you passed (or better after a door transition happened), if you want to ensure a 100% desyncless movie. This can cost alot of time and frustration, and the more you progress in the run, the more frustrating it gets to playback it, since the movie gets longer and longer with the progress. So herewith I just want to warn you all about SM-TASing on Snes9x v1.51. The benefits of it are of course nice, but except of somewhat superior sound there is really nothing else left. In the later AVI you almost won't notice and graphical differences anyway, and the slight loading differences aren't that bad at all, since all the game physics including the in-game timer stay 100% the same anyway. Even sound channel support is already available in Snes9x v1.43 (thanks to Upthorn, who really made a name for himself after this nice contribution). In my opinion the slight benefits definitely aren't worth the large additional work and frustration, so I highly recommend to not use Snes9x v1.51 for SM-TASing as long as the movie isn't really short. At least not if you don't want to kill yourself with it. After a small talk with hero, he seems to agree with that as well by now.
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hero of the day wrote:
Well, it was no joke. I did in fact improve the door jump by 5 frames. Though I forget the exact line of input, it requires that the A button be released sometime during the middle of the jump. I will edit this later if you can't figure it out, and I will post the exact key presses. Because I am nice guy and I don't like keeping secrets for my own benefit, here you go. I just quickly modified moozooh's movie to add in my door improvement. http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1070752612/torizo_skip_ntsc.smv
Hmm, very weird. I tried to release the jump button on all possible frames to get lower height, but doing so the door always cancelled my spinjump animation even though the escape worked out. The actual key to get it done is to release the direction button. Apparently it allows to trigger the transition even one frame earlier than usual, which is the only way that allows maintaining the spinjump for a faster turn around in the next room. Very nice discovery hero, and I admit, this is probably one of the last small tricks I didn't know yet. Thank you very much for posting.
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Tonski: I see. Was probably a stupid question, since its very unlikely somebody would be able to get this time yet. I was just confused at first.
Cpadolf wrote:
Also I've been playing around with the torizo escape a lot and have not been able to do the faster way heor did, so I thought maybe someone could explain it further if it's not to much trouble.
Same here. I think moozooh made a joke. There is no way to gain time by landing on the platform with the door. It's actually much slower than the immediate jump to the main ground.
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Cpadolf wrote:
I guess it requires waiting frames for luck manipulation already in the opening cut scene doesn't it Saturn?
Yeah, some here, some there. I'm still not sure if my line is the shortest in realtime frame delay, but I didn't bother too much, since my goal is in-game time anyway. And of course you should submit it if you get 0:23. Even a 0:24 would be worth the submission, since it would be a new record as well.
Tonski wrote:
I knew about this whole 49'15 a long time ago, I just didn't mention it to you earlier I think. :-P
Where did you knew about it? Anybody else did it as well already?
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Ok, I just watched the AVI and it was great! The quality is sure not the best, but absolutely acceptable since you can see everything you need without problems. Only the file size is a bit large for this quality, but fine encoding isn't that easy without having the knowledge with the optimal settings. I very much liked how you managed the tracks order, picking suitable music to almost any places without many changes. I liked the hidden soundtrack at Draygons that you can only hear when going to the menu before Torizo appears for a longer time. Spores music at Phantoon was also a nice idea. The only thing that I didn't like was that you skipped the door animations as extremely as possible. That way the run is fully in the flow of course, but when exiting a room and going to the next, you often miss a slight part of the beginning of it, since the switch is so quickly that human reaction isn't able to see every detail that fast. I would skip everything like you did, but add at least a ~0,2 sec delay between each door transition to ease the watcher getting every detail between them. Pretty much like I did with the RBO demos, where the skip is there, but you still are able to fully follow each room because of slight delays between door transitions. But whatever, it was great to see and I fully enjoyed this 37 min. Good job!
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comicalflop wrote:
He saved 1 frame in one spot, likely because Moozooh overlooked something; it happens all the time. I say wait for consistency (which may very well happen, in which case kudos) before you start shitting your pants with this whole "this new guy is teh shiz".
Lol, shitting in pants as a relevance to a surprise about a (so far) excellent TAS performance? New to me. ;-) And Cpadolf is actually a well known member of m2k2. It's just his TASing that is new. Of course it's a bit early to make conclusions yet, but doing so well as a newbie on one of the hardest games, and even improving a tricky (thats probably the reason moozooh overlooked it, since it usually doesn't happen when working in moozooh-style) room, is already something special enough to be surprised to, at least when you know the difficulty of SM-TASing in general.
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Tonski wrote:
And are you really serious? 49'15?? Is that because of the emulator changes or have you really improved JXQ's frame counts? Me want to see. :)
Nope, it's not because of emu changes. It's a true gain which can be done on any emulator, since the only differences to the newer ones are the door transitions and loading parts which don't affect a run at all in-game wise. It's highly based on luck and max subpixel optimization though, for which I had to test alot of stuff in order to find a optimal line. A different emu may have different luck, so it would require to test everything from scratch in order to get the same result again. Also keep in mind that I got this time in mid August 2006 already, way before JXQv2 was done. The key to get this time was probably that instead of comparing, I just fully concentrated on the actual attempt and searched for optimizations individually all the time without being influenced by any other run. As said before, this not only brings uniqueness into a run, but also increases the chances to find even more improvements, which as you see, I obviously did. That run gets one year old soon. Maybe I will drop a small teaser of the Ceres part for you guys to see then, as a sign of celebration. :-)
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Tonski wrote:
I actually compared to your unfinished RBO-run, but so many tricks have been found after you started that run I think that's the main reason.
I see. In that case you are right of course. RBO is a almost 2 year old run by now and my first ever SM-TASing attempt. I actually meant the comparison to my later any% run though, which was much more superior to RBO, especially at the first parts of the run. It for example gets a Ceres escape time of 49'15 (compared to the for now best known 49'01) which I'm still waiting to be matched. And yeah, Brinstar is the first part that starts to make fun to TAS. It's: 1. much easier to handle compared to Crateria 2. has a much better graphical atmosphere 3. much better music It's not a surprise that every TASer enjoyes this part of a run. :-)
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