Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Player
(209)
Joined: 2/18/2005
Posts: 1451
What an awesome performance of the German team against Argentina! The comeback after being 1-0 down was just amazing and the 11-meter shooting was absolutely perfect. Now I strongly believe they can become the World Champion. Go Klinsi & Co!!!
On the other hand Argentina showed they are bad losers by almost starting a fight at the end. Must be the typical south temperament. :-)
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Player
(209)
Joined: 2/18/2005
Posts: 1451
I am thinking of doing a any% TAS of Super Metroid Redesign next year, however this will require very much work so it would be great to know for sure whether SM Redesign will be accepted on TASvideos as another Metroid Hack or not. It's just too bad the rules allow only one hack per game, but since SM Redesign has completely changed physics that are very different to the original game and even some more movements the original don't has at all (like the Shinespark re-charge or the new screw attack boost that would allow a awesome looking TAS) this could be considred as a seperate hack. As moozooh said, and I can only agree with him, SM Redesign has definitely the level of the SDW - TLC Hack in quality so I would like to ask whether we can make a tiny exception and just in this case allow both hacks. I think this would be the best choice.
I already did a nice and pretty high quality TAS-demo of Redesign till the Wall jump boots in Brinstar, so if someone is interested or if it would help in the judging of the hack I could post the SMV in the Redesign tread. However Legacy definitely shouldn't be replaced by Redesign as it's also a very nice hack that already has a complete TAS done which catnap even plans to improve.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Player
(209)
Joined: 2/18/2005
Posts: 1451
Graveworm wrote:
Saturn wrote:
First to let you know, I am comparing in ingame time only.
And I don't. :)
I just focus on the real game speed you can see not on the speed of room transitions as they are different depending on how you enter them. In some cases the transition would be faster if you enter it some frames later doing a different move (like when JXQ skiped the mockball to sacrifice a frame when entering the spazer room for a faster transition and there are sure other cases) which is out of question for me.
Graveworm wrote:
If you're killing Ridley before Draygon, you wont have 15 super missiles here, sadly enough.
In this case I considered to take the 2nd hidden Super in Wrecked Ship and skip the one in Maridia which exceptionally is worth here.
Graveworm wrote:
I was thinking about getting Ice beam when going back up because then one wouldn't have to switch on and off if using power bomb combos, but you'd probably have Spazer at those points, so that wouldn't matter anyway.
If collecting 5 Power bombs you will only have one or even none for the Ridley fight if not slowing down to recollect them. And even if you would get all 5 PB charged shots in you would still lose much more time for the rest of his HP if not having Ice and Spazer. Wave alone is twice as weak than Wave/Spazer/Ice which makes the fight 20 whole sec longer.
Graveworm wrote:
Considering the bosses in this game is so easy, fighting with less weapons and making it look a bit harder would probably be more entertaining than going there with plasma and killing the second last boss in 20 seconds. (40 seconds isn't much better, but it's one step in the right direction.)
The bosses must be owned in order to make a greater impression for the watcher. If standing on a point and shooting all the way in the same direction (like against Mother) a whole minute long then this is a sure fast forward part. Instead showing more action and going detours for the same end-time is a much better choice IMO.
EDIT: btw: here is a AVI demo of the Botwoon technical skip I mainly did for those who can't handle Snes9x and playback smvs. I simply used JXQ's Botwoon fight and mixed in my own input to return to the room again:
http://rapidshare.de/files/24116505/Super_Metroid_-_Botwoon_Skip.avi.html
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Player
(209)
Joined: 2/18/2005
Posts: 1451
First to let you know, I am comparing in ingame time only.
Without Plasma (assuming you have 15 Supers) you lose around 20 sec on Ridley and 40 sec on mother. I don't think there is any super that are worth the take even for both bosses.
If doing Ridley first you save time especially on the norfair elevator in both directions and this save is almost similar to the loss in the Ridley fight. If doing Ridley first it's best to take the Ice Beam right after entering Norfair first time and exit the room by using the Norfair Gate Hater trick (see a demo-smv here), then get HJ Boots, speed and wave and enter Ridleys lair. If skiping Plasma you should definitely collect the Spazer as well which btw is around 10 sec in delay not 30.
About Kraids lair you're right with the route saves. Plasma hurts Kraid as well and if shooting a charged Plasma as soon as possible followed by a Super you can kill him even 30 frames faster than the 1 missile + 3 supers method!
If the in game timer will be the same in both routes I would take Draygon first (Plasma route) for the sake of entertainment since its much better to see you run through more rooms than to spend alot of time on the bosses, however if aiming for real time like JXQ did, I'm pretty sure that Ridley first would be faster because of much less room transitions.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Player
(209)
Joined: 2/18/2005
Posts: 1451
Graveworm wrote:
Can't really remember how it went when I tested this, but is there anything that could make the Phantoon -> Ridley -> Kraid -> Draygon route faster than just doing it in the intended order?
Also, you'd only waste a couple of frames waiting for Botwoon to die, wouldn't you?
Yes, maybe 10 - 20 frames would suffice to trigger Botwoons death in the room so it's not a big problem anyway. You just have to keep this in mind when fighting him.
And about the route, Phantoon first appeared to me slightly faster at the end mostly because you have to add a nice speedup in the late Kraids lair (speedbooster) and the faster pass of the green bubble room (power bomb) to go down after the items instead of bombing yourself through the morph ball maze. I gained around 5 sec at the end but my tests weren't 100% optimized so the results may vary in some frames. I'm not sure though whether Ridley or Draygon last is faster. Fact is in Draygon last you gain very much time in the route but lose alot of time on bosses without Plasma. If you want Plasma go Ridley last.
I still don't know for sure which route is the fastest after Phantoon so this needs to be tested. I'm sure though that both routes will be very close in time so it probably wouldn't matter on the ingame timer anyway.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Player
(209)
Joined: 2/18/2005
Posts: 1451
Oh yeah, this would really piss me off and I'm very glad this is known now because I accidentaly tested the route for a any% run and if going Phantoon -> Ridley -> Kraid -> Draygon then it's definitely faster to skip Plasma so you would have to pass Botwoons room and take the Maridia shortcut to the Brinstar elevator and go right to Tourian through Crateria. :-)
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Player
(209)
Joined: 2/18/2005
Posts: 1451
Take it easy cheesy. Just take JXQs hint (which is very wise) and wait some years until you grow up a bit. You will later see how true it is.
cheeseman wrote:
Have it your way faggots... and maybe you can laugh yourself silly when you get to sleep drunk and wake after having slept with your mom and your best friend. Hehe gay faggots...
You obviously don't have a clue about this. Even if you are very drunk you can still control yourself and mostly know what is right and what is wrong. Maybe this is/won't be in your case though...
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Player
(209)
Joined: 2/18/2005
Posts: 1451
Hey JXQ, I just discovered a really cool accident you did in this 100% TAS!!
Just playback the run until you enter the room with the energy tank right after Botwoon, stop the playback and return to the Botwoon room again.
You have skipped Botwoon without knowing, Mr. Hip Hop! :-P
Reason why this happens: If you leave the room before Botwoons wall gets destroyed to the end the game doesn't switch the status of the room that Botwoon is dead so he and the wall simply reappears again on the next entrance. :-) Thanks to Kejardon for this technical explanation!
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Player
(209)
Joined: 2/18/2005
Posts: 1451
moozooh wrote:
Well, technically it is already implemented for quite a long time (ever since DOS 0.9xx versions, I believe), but something went bad at some point (somewhere around 0.989c release?), and all the later versions that have rerecording support may not be considered safe to use, and I still can't really understand what holds the developers from reimplementing the bulletproof rerecording support (well, unless it requires them to rewrite half of the emulator code from scratch).
I don't think it does, they just need time to fix all bugs. If I remember correctly, the rerecord feature was implemented since the 1.42 WIPS (not the official version) which is around a year ago now. The main reason why ZSNES couldn't compete with Snes9x in movie recording was because the movies often went out of sync. It started since ZSNES v1.10 when they implemented Netplay which is the reason for most desyncs. All older versions (from 1.01 and back) had a very stable and safe movie recording but they were all DOS which isn't supported by most systems today.
But there is still hope. They removed Netplay support in order to fix the movie desyncs and if all goes well ZSNES will once again have a stable and safe movie support soon.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Player
(209)
Joined: 2/18/2005
Posts: 1451
Zurreco wrote:
www.liquidgeneration.com is where they started from, I think. Personally, I think it should have died off over there as well, but some people seem to think that they're still funny. *shrug*
Thanks. I had to search around a bit to find it, it's in the Sabotage section! The other Games were nice as well, remembers me on www.zipperfish.com which also has some really cool and sexy games. However I couldn't find any screamers there yet.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Player
(209)
Joined: 2/18/2005
Posts: 1451
Nice games. Especially the Maze kicked ass!
Fabian, don't take it that bad. It's scary and not very appreciated by some people but I think it's still fun and interesting to experience them. I always look for such "games" and if someone has more different ones link them please!
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Player
(209)
Joined: 2/18/2005
Posts: 1451
Hmm.. someone must be blind I guess:
Saturn wrote:
One thing I wonder though: In Lockes scenario you take a detour for a Earring. But in around frame 317000 on the way to the hidden chocobo hut where you pass the house of which a colloseum gets build in WOR you could get a Hero Ring from a pot which is done very fast. I think this detour would be faster than to get a earring in Lockes scenario and if I'm not wrong a hero ring has the same effect on magic power as one earring but it increases the attack power as well which could be even more useful in some battles. Have you missed that or is there still a reason for not taking this powerful relic and replace one earring?
Still wondering...
And thanks dcook for the nice explanation.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Player
(209)
Joined: 2/18/2005
Posts: 1451
Oddity wrote:
How are you having trouble with the escape after defeating Ridley when there's an energy tank in the next room? Why would beating Ridley faster matter, when that AVI shows you beating him in enough time (and that wasn't even the fastest way)?
There is no way to skip this hidden energy tank before going to Ridley so I can't use it as a refill on the escape.
And except of some small and careless mistakes and of course the final KO grab of Ridley the fight in the vid is pretty much the fastest way to kill him in my conditions. I couldn't think of any major improvements there.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Player
(209)
Joined: 2/18/2005
Posts: 1451
I finally watched the run!
I liked your strategies for all the battles. They seem to be pretty optimized. The use of the Phantom esper making your party invisible to avoid hits was very smart. The playing around with the cursor to "randomly" select which character should die in waiting parts like before using a desperation attack was also a nice idea to increase the entertainment a bit. It was surprising to see how fast you managed to pass the WOR compared to WOB, just awesome! The overall playing was also extremely well optimized and you even skipped each text dialog on the first possible frame which makes this run high qualitative.
So without a doubt YES vote!
One thing I wonder though: In Lockes scenario you take a detour for a Earring. But in around frame 317000 on the way to the hidden chocobo hut where you pass the house of which a colloseum gets build in WOR you could get a Hero Ring from a pot which is done very fast. I think this detour would be faster than to get a earring in Lockes scenario and if I'm not wrong a hero ring has the same effect on magic power as one earring but it increases the attack power as well which could be even more useful in some battles. Have you missed that or is there still a reason for not taking this powerful relic and replace one earring?
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Player
(209)
Joined: 2/18/2005
Posts: 1451
Great movies, thanks catnap!
Apparently the CF in Ridleys grey door is still not fast enough to attack Ridley immediately but I still think its faster overall. I liked the trick to avoid the spikes after the hidden energy tank by taking the knockback (which only deals 5 energy points of damage) from the bat. I freezed it and used it as a platform which is slower overall.
The maridia movie was great. I was planning to use the glass tube trick as well but opening the top door before Samus would touch it, then freeze land on the first fish. Your trick by gaining more momentum for the jump and abusing the turn around animation is definitely faster since you jump alot higher this way. The X-Ray climb to Botwoon was also nice to see and it's probably faster than the snail climb.
I'm sure this movies will be of use in some parts especially for time comparisons. :-)
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Player
(209)
Joined: 2/18/2005
Posts: 1451
Thanks for the hints. I already considered to mix the Missiles with charged shots during dodges or offscreens. However each time you switch from a charged shot to a missile shot you will lose 30 whole frames until you can fire the next missile again which is pretty much. I will analyze this variations more carefully to find the optimal use in every case.
As for the pause of the charge counter during the turn around animation there is a way to avoid almost the entire delay by simply doing a small spinjump and turn around during it in one frame then continue to charge. I used this trick for most turn arounds in the Ridley test fight vid as well. :-)
One thing I probably don't know exactly is Ridleys acting on different moves of Samus. I guess there is no way to find the optimal solution without testing each individual case.
I would still be very interested to see your Ridley test fight in case you want to upload it at some time. Maybe I can learn some other useful tricks of it as well.
Thanks for your support catnap!
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Player
(209)
Joined: 2/18/2005
Posts: 1451
catnap222 wrote:
Yes, I came up with one improvement.
How about CrystalFlashing at boss room during the time Redley haven't come yet?
Redley fight may become little bit long, but not so long compared to get more items.
I used this method in my test movie, and it saves some energy.
If you use CrystalFlash at upper gray gate(get stuck into the door when entering Redley room), you can attack smoothly after that.
Thank you for posting this smart trick! Again something I haven't considered to use at all. Starting a CF right in the grey door of Ridleys room would definitely be worth to use because you won't waste time during the CF-animation (which are around 10 sec) and still can start the battle in time. The little time loss by not using a charged PB wave combo which makes 1200 damage immediately to Ridley is surely compensated by the 10 sec gain of the CF animation during the waiting time plus the at least 1 more tank of available energy for the fight. The only problem with this is I'm not sure if my low energy will suffice if delaying the CF until Ridleys room (it wouldn't work in the test run) so the way to Ridley has to be speeded up again. If this works I can easyly skip the additional PB pack in lower norfair which is a good thing.
I will of course use the reserve tanks manually in the final run. I just didn't care about it too much in the test fight.
catnap222 wrote:
By the way, how much the lack of energy is for escaping?
In the tests it were about 80 energy points that lacked to survive the escape if not having a full reserve tank before.
Thanks for the clarification about the X-Ray and the Super Missiles. Still a good thing to come up with such smart alternatives to escape Draygons room. :-)
moozooh wrote:
...the fastest RBO run would be any% and low% at the same time.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Player
(209)
Joined: 2/18/2005
Posts: 1451
Bob A wrote:
I think using missiles is slower, at least since you unloaded them too fast (I think).
Is this an any% run? Something I'd like to see sometime is a lowest% rbo run.
If firing Missiles at a constant max rate it is exactly twice as fast as using charged Spazer/Wave/Ice at max rate. For a charged shot (no matter what beams) you need 61 frames per shot which in my case would deal 300 damage to Ridley. The Missile fire rate is 10 or 9 frames and each Missile does 100 damage to Ridley so I end (if optimal) with 600 damage per second. The downside is that it's difficult to keep the max fire rate of Missiles during the fight because Ridley often goes off screen and I sometimes have to wait for him. Charged shots however are easy to keep at the max firerate because you have more time between the shots. If optimized I still think Missiles are faster.
I aim for any% but fastest RBO time. However I still try to collect as l few items as somehow possible without slowing down.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Player
(209)
Joined: 2/18/2005
Posts: 1451
Zurreco wrote:
Will the run become exponentially easier/faster after you return from Norfair?
Easier yes, but not really faster as said with Maridia.
Tub wrote:
I suspect some experiments with route planning though, the existing NBNM-Runs never cared too much for speed, and the optimal (TAS-)route is yet to be found.
I think I have found the optimal route in Maridia. You just go the fastest known way to Bowoon/Draygon and then use the blinking grey door (unlocked after killing Draygon) that is above the Botwoon room to get to the location near Plasma and exit Maridia from the top right elevator so that you can enter Wrecked Ship from the wrong side to kill Phantoon. When I reach Maridia I will check everything one more time to be sure.
catnap:
Thank you, glad you like the teasers. The song in the Speed Demo2.avi is a trance-rave mix of the Terminator 2 theme.
Also thanks alot for the escape movie. It helped me especially with the run through the golden pirates trick. I wonder how you managed to avoid damage from them. I noticed you have shot the first one right before touching it. Is this the reason?
However keep in mind that you have the screw attack that saves much time in the escape as you can simply jump through enemies without sacrificing speed to dodge them. Also you save much time in the last heat room where you can simply destroy both bomb-block walls with the screw attack.
What I wonder though is why did you collect the X-Ray scope? It is the most unnecessary item in the game (at least when you know all hidden paths) so why collecting it for a RBO? Also how many Super Missiles were you able to use on Ridley? Your fight was surprisingly fast although you haven't used any Missiles at all on him and you still managed to keep almost the entire energy from the reserve tank for the escape. Did you use another probably faster strategy to beat him?
All in all your RBO route was pretty similar to mine.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Player
(209)
Joined: 2/18/2005
Posts: 1451
creaothceann wrote:
Still busy, I guess...?
Yes, during the working days anyway. But I slowly continue working on the run. I'm testing around in lower norfair for a while now so the next WIP should be done soon. However I decided to delay the WIP-release until I can escape lower norfair instead after killing Ridley because the escape turned out to be the biggest problem for me.
In the meantime I can offer a video that shows a test fight against Ridley:
http://rapidshare.de/files/19626115/Super_Metroid_RBO_Run_-_Ridley_Beta-Test.avi.html
It shows a example of how close the fight will be. And there is even more: I have no chance to survive the lower norfair escape with the conditions I have after the fight in the vid. I am forced to kill Ridley and grab his energy tank BEFORE the Reserve Tank runs out as I will badly need it for the escape.
So now I'm looking for a way to kill Ridley even faster. I fear there is no other way to speed the fight up if not collecting one more ammo-pack than planned. I consider to grab the Power Bombs in LN (the room with the vertical shaft you can use the kagoball glitch to pass the moving spike blocks) so that I can use more charged PB Wave combos on Ridley which will definitely speed things up. However I'm not sure if the energy will suffice for the extra detour in the heat so it requires much testings to find out.
In short defeating Ridley is not a problem (although damn close) but the LN escape is.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Player
(209)
Joined: 2/18/2005
Posts: 1451
I think the movie description is just fine as it is now. It is long enough to notice and if people will care to read it carefully they will simply pause the video (it shouldn't be that difficult). I'm against the increasing of the description length in the movies because of the known reasons (larger file size, bittorrent etc.) and Gigafrosts good points about it.
Warp wrote:
I believe that it would be a rather illuminating experience for these people to try to make a TAS of some existing run in this site to see if they can make it even close. For example megaman1 would be a rather illustrative example. Perhaps then they could see that it's not as easy as they think but requires tons of work (in some cases it might even require more work than an acceptable unassisted run, at least for an experienced runner).
Very true. Some people will never realize this until they try high quality TASing themself.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Player
(209)
Joined: 2/18/2005
Posts: 1451
moozooh wrote:
I'd not dare to say there are more than 20—30 people in the world who could do all the IBJ maze unassisted. Sadly, I'm not among them.
I agree.
You only have 3-4 frames tolerance to lay a bomb and this each time. If too early the 3 bombs counter gets empty and if to late you won't be able to jump up from the bomb in time. Pretty awesome to see there are people who have this precise reflexes to still perform it in realtime.