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Cpadolf wrote:
Well yeah, but "legit" isn't really the right word here, it makes it sound like the glitched run uses cheats, since it is insinuated that it is not legit
I meant legit in terms of not breaking the game to skip major parts of it, not in relevance to using cheat codes. Maybe "glitchless" is a better term then.
Comicalflop wrote:
What about the crystal flash to get lodged in the door so that you can remain standing high up in the stage and shoot sooner at Ridley? isn't that technically OoB?
It's not really OoB, since you only abuse the door as a platform to start the Crystal Flash immediately. Besides door areas are still within the "legit" room in the end.
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I decided to give another attempt in SMW a go, since my 1st one sucked so badly. After a few tests to find suitable strategies for my rusty skills, I managed to get a ~13:40 (SDA timing).
I had to use the blue Yoshi in the last level of Star World, since I'm not very good in the unlimited cape flying tech to get through that level without him. At least I managed to not die at all, so it's not a bad attempt overall.
SMW - Any% speedrun (unassisted, single-segmented) in ~13:40
(recorded on Snes9x 1.43 v12)
Enjoy!
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Baxter wrote:
Sounds like you defined "legit run" just to fit exactly your own (arbitrary) goals. This run isn't a glitchless run either... it only doesn't use glitches you don't like, and define this as "legit". It's pretty easy to predict no major improvements can me made, since every major improvement wouldn't be what you define as "legit".
It's really simple: Any run that doesn't use out of room travelling to skip major parts of the game like bosses etc. is considered legit. I didn't define anything there, it's known in the SM community.
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Apo123 wrote:
While I have to say your run is only known to be improvable by 15 seconds RIGHT NOW, historically some new trick or something will pop up and will allow this run to be obsoleted by several minutes.
Never. Trust me, there is nothing left this time that could obsolete it by whole minutes. It would only be possible with significant gamebreaking glitches that allow you to do major skips, but then again, it wouldn't be a glitchless, legit run like this one. 0:27 is the limit here, ask anybody who knows at least a bit about Super Metroid, they will tell you the same thing.
Baxter wrote:
It says: "Movies of hacked games and other demonstrations". Which of the demonstrations do you think this run is similar to? (I kinda assume you think it's similar in at least one aspect, since you think it fits in.)
Oops, I accidentally thought the small only Super Mario TAS was in that section. Seems like it wasn't the case after all. But a good example there would be Genisto's "glitchfest run of SMB3. It's a run of a original, unhacked game, that has a special goal to show as many glitches as possible, which is somewhat similar to this run, showing how to legally beat the game with the least amount of items possible. The latter is a even more solid goal, since deciding which glitches to show is a matter of opinion, while getting a optimal low% is only possible through one way that this movie shows. There is no choice here.
NameSpoofer wrote:
And, TBH, I believe that with all the optimizations found, the time between going WS first vs getting SB first would be very close. Mabye I'm crazy. =\
Yeah, it will for sure be more entertaining that way, but if you won't do WS first in the SB route, then a 0:29 is definitely the limit here. I just can't see how you want to make up for the huge time losses of the route detour to get Speed Booster early. So yeah, if you can get a at least close to 0:28 time with it, I would be surprised.
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DRybes wrote:
So again... even assuming that no one has any problems about whether or not the category of this run is a good idea... it is not as fast as it could, and should, be.
Just so you know, my goal with this run (despite that I aimed for realtime to increase entertainment) was to get the lowest possible completion time to set a record to this category forever, at which I succeeded. I see your point though.
Spoofer:
Good to know. You probably wouldn't get the needed help anyway, given the fact that your fellow didn't even manage to design a optimal route to begin with.
As for the improvement, you should keep in mind that the only way to compete to this run is to use the 100% same route and copy 99% of the strategies from it. So other than the few missed techs at the beginning, the run would basicly look pretty much the same without any new surprises at all.
Using the Speed Booster route will on the other hand show some new stuff never seen in any run before (not to mention it would be the first TAS ever for this route), but the downside is that you won't be able to get 0:27 with it. In fact, I have very high doubts that even a 0:28 is reachable, so it would certainly be interesting to know the answer to this question as well.
Did you weigh the pros and cons of the routes to make a decision which one you will use yet?
As for the category, it shouldn't necessary be added to the main movies, but it would certainly fit in the concept demo section, like all the other special runs there. Maybe you should ask Bisqwit about that to know for sure.
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No, X-Ray glitched run got published only a few months ago. If you weren't aware of that run, I can provide you a link. The other, main reason was mentioned a few posts back, just look closely.
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Right, no one will be surprised when an up to 15 sec obsoletion pops up. But thats all we will get here.
Angerfist:
I just did that conclusion because no one ever tried to obsolete the previous run for 4 years. Reason, as you can guess, is because the 14% run just requires some advanced techs which probably nobody dared to perform, at least not in a close to frame-perfect way. For example moozooh already wanted to HBJ over the WS-Lake back in February 2007, maybe even sooner, but as you see, never came around doing it, despite that it's a tech that can be developed and executed in a relatively short amount of time unlike complex boss strategies. Why? I'm sure you can guess.
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Sir VG wrote:
Congrats Saturn, you managed to crash my copy of SNES9X twice now. Funny that the first time occurred when you used a Power Bomb. ^^;;
Try to disable "Sync samples with sound CPU" when playbacking it. I heard it's one of the main reasons for crashing on some computers.
Mlandry wrote:
They would be praising this run if you had posted this with a different name.
Indeed. It's kind of funny that a few people here aren't able to see the true quality of this run (putting the early part aside), not to mention the many new tricks and strategies it presents which would probably never be found otherwise. Good to know you're not one of them.
DRybes wrote:
Arbitrary category or not (I think it's a legit category), by author's own admission there are improvements possible.
If you look at the history of TASvideos, almost all published runs that were thought to be more or less unimprovable were obsoleted by new runs that were several minutes faster in the end. This is especially for longer runs like this one the case. The difference is that the other authors just weren't aware of the improvements, so they obviously never stated them beforehand. It isn't the case here, so why shouldn't I inform the people about the facts? This more than 40 minutes long run is only improvable by at most 15 seconds as mentioned before, not several minutes like in most other cases. I think people can make their own mind about what is sounding better.
Spoofer:
If you consider to make a Speed Booster run, be sure to contact moozooh with that. He should surely have some advice for you, doing "tests" for this route for the last 2 years.
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dave_dfwm wrote:
Could you have used a super missle (and regain it in the pre-Ridley room) to kill a flying insect and gain a powerbomb to save time instead of using 3 bombs?
The LN Ki-Hunter is in fact the most powerful enemy of the game. It would require 6 Super Missiles to kill just one, so it was out of question. There was just no way to get the PB back somehow, not a faster one than bombing the 3 blocks anyway.
Cpadolf:
People make mistakes until realizing the truth themself. It's common. Don't worry, you are not the first one. If you can find at least a 2 sec improvement from Ridley on, be sure to let me know, ok?
mmbossman wrote:
Poor mmbossman, I didn't even have to click on the link to know what you are referring to again. :-)
Will you ever get over the past? One thing I can only repeat over and over is that Super Metroid isn't Chrono Trigger. The knowledge I gained in SM over all this years is just not comparable to CT, so don't worry, I won't make the same mistake anymore.
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Tub wrote:
It's definitely not less entertaining than the 6% NBMB TAS overall
well, I'd give the 6% run a solid 9.5 on entertainment, so this'll have to get 10.5 because Saturn said so.
I didn't consider you thought that almost 4 minutes of slowly X-Ray climbing up 11 screens while having a still picture without any movements at all (other than the climb animation) is worth a 9,5 entertainment rating for you. Sorry for the misunderstanding.
As for technical, no need to exaggerate. It is, other than at the very beginning and the few skipped tricks, very high, and especially in the late run barely improvable (otherwise Cpadolf would already post his claimed 600 frame improvement smv from the later part already, which didn't happen as you see).
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The "entire" run is improvable by ~15 sec with 95% comming from the early part of the run. 2 of this seconds would be saved with the mentioned 3 tricks, the rest from just better optimization and a few techniques I wasn't aware about back then (improved Torizo Skip, down-reverse fall and hero-knockbacks in green/red brinstar are the major ones). Is there anything not clear enough yet?
And keep in mind that 15 sec is the peak. In fact, I'd estimate even less than that. Don't ask for exact numbers though. It's impossible to know for sure.
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Yeah, thats the only exception. Optimizing doors for realtime looks pretty sloppy and in most cases loses much more ingame time than it saves realtime, so the exchange wasn't worth it for me. Besides nobody will notice the few frames of longer door scrolling, but everybody will notice the sloppiness when entering them, which I wanted to avoid.
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Titus Kwok wrote:
The lack of crazy speedbooster tricks hurts the entertainment value, but holy Draygon fight.
Yeah, but on the other hand it makes the run very unique especially in the later parts, since there is no other run form that allows this conditions while still having a solid goal, hence the many unique tricks it allows to present. It's kind of comparable to the "small only" Super Mario TASes, just with much more restrictions, making it a pretty special run.
Twelvepack wrote:
Leaving out stuff like that intentionally is either lazy or obnoxious. A good run should be neither.
I defintely wasn't lazy with this run. Just look how much planning and luck manipulation work has been done in every part of the run. There are only 3 notable tricks I left out of this run (new OTES climb, Gravity Spike Tech and the mentioned Norfair Walljump) which together would save around 2 seconds only, and would barely make a difference in the end overall. In fact, I think that the old techs look even cooler anyway, so it only adds up to the entertainment value of the run. As for the reason, hero summed it up pretty well.
Twelvepack wrote:
Your submission text says that you aim for both in game time as well as real time, but in which order? In order to avoid another ugly, annoying discussion about this in the future, you should say which has been minimized.
Well, since I skip every single menu entrance, even if it slows down the ingame time slightly (examples seen at the Tourian recharge station, or various opportunities where switching off Ice Beam would allow for slightly faster refills), I would say realtime. Luckily I managed to get the lowest possible game clock completion time nevertheless, so it basicly satisfies both goals in my eyes. But yeah, primary goal was realtime in that case.
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Cpadolf wrote:
The optimization in the latter part of the run is also very very good, though I still refuse to think that there are not at least a few seconds of improvement, making the run in whole improvable by about 20-25 seconds without new discoveries.
I don't blame you for truly believing that the later part from Ridley on (at which I started to optimize the run much more after realizing how close it will get with the completion time) is improvable by 10 seconds from optimization only just like that, but you are always free to try proving me wrong, having the smv to compare to your improvements now. :-)
And yeah, props to the vote abuser who aren't able to judge the run objectively. Keep it up.
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Wow. As we can see, this is only possible with fully optimized luck manipulation to get every single refill drop from the lights. This is something I just didn't bother at this early part of my testrun.
The fight itself is exactly 4 seconds faster than my 2-round strategy, but due to the missing refills of the 2nd round, which you would probably have to get back at a later point, the total gain would probably be around 3 seconds in the end.
Good job, Kriole.
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Yes, Magus' Amulet does the job too, but as the name already says, you can only get it after Magus joins you / fights you the 2nd time after the flood in 12000 BC. Fiona's quest can be done much earlier than that though, so it's not an option.
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Since you can only duplicate items you already have, it probably won't allow you to fight Lavos any sooner, because you still need the GreenDream to use the quick kill glitch with the Elixir. Having 99 attack- and magic power won't suffice alone, as Lavos would have enough time to use his fatal attacks like the "Obstacle" that will confuse and kill you shortly after that, unless you have something to protect your status, which is again only available after Fiona's quest (Vigil Hat and Sight Cap).
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inichi wrote:
Everybody, I've found a freaking awesome glitch!! That's an item duplication glitch. Yes, you can multiply any items, including tabs, as much as you want in Chrono Trigger. A huge timesaver, off course. Here it is.
SMV: It seems Microstorage is temporarily dead, so I used MediaFire instead.
YoutubeNote: Make sure that your Snes9x 1.51 is 5 or newer version before playing the movie; otherwise, the glitch won't be reproduced properly and it will desync in the end.
I'll probably add a further explanation on the glitch later.
Oh my GOD! Is there anything left in this poor game that the almighty inichi can't break??
This immediately allows to cut down the game completion time massively and lets you skip ALL leveling up from now on. Totally crazy, I'm just speechless.
Now comes the question whether it's still worth to use the boss skip trick, even on a normal any% run. Although it probably would still be slightly faster in the end, the run will miss the total boss-pwnage you can from now on show with the 99 attack- and magic values, finishing them in a couple of seconds anyway. I would totally go for the boss fights with this crazy discovery now, since it would make the run so much more entertaining (bosses are one of the best things CT has to offer), no matter whether it would be slightly slower or not.
Did you make a decision on this yet, inichi?
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Looks great, Kriole. It's especially shocking to see that the midair bomb jump after Torizo was almost 1,5 seconds improvable, due to much better positioning of the bombs and the new unmorph trick I started to use later at the HJ-Boots as well. I only expected it to be a second at first...
And the main reason for most other tiny improvements here and there, is because I simply didn't bother to optimize them to the best of my ability, since my main goal at that time was once again to just progress in the run as fast as possible (couldn't wait until testing the new conditions with Speed Booster for the first time). This of course changed from Norfair on though, where it started to get more and more interesting to TAS.
Anyway, good luck on further progress.
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inichi wrote:
Yeah. Dragon Tank will be at least 400 frames faster than the test one due to far better critical hit luck manipulation. Magus battle will be also improvable by 30 frames or something by swithcing some attacks.
Wow. Never expected such a huge improvement possibility in the Dragon Tank battle. Just crazy.
ShmoeBeast95:
I have no idea why you can't start ZSNES directly, but I guess it's probably because you tried the old ZSNES v0.989c DOS version, which was recommended to watch the movie. And if that was the case, then it's likely you couldn't open the movies because of sound problems (sound MUST work, otherwise the movie won't open in any case), which is common with newer systems when trying to use DOS. Of course the error can also be caused by not opening ZSNES directly, not through the ROM. You could try to fix the sound in this version by using a little program called VDMSound. Simply install it, then right click on ZSNES.exe and chose "Run with VDMSound".
If that doesn't help, the best I can suggest you is to try the alternate Windows version of ZSNES v1.000 (available for download in the ZSNES section). It playbacks at least the last 7 segments correctly (first one desyncs at Dragon Tank battle), but at least the emulator runs fine on newer systems, and doesn't require any sound fixes as well.
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One of the most glitched out TASes on this site. Just crazy how you managed to finish the entire game in sub-7 minutes. All critical hits come to 100% when needed, and the level of precision in the moves is absolutely top.
Awesome work, as we can always expect from you, inichi. Big YES vote!
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evilchen wrote:
saturn do you think 00:26 is possible with new tricks? techs etc?
As said just one post before your question, no it isn't. New tricks and max optimization could save, as Spoofer already guessed, around 10 sec in the early part of the run. And since the route is as optimal as it can be, there is nothing else you can do to catch up the other 50 sec missing until a 0:26 is reachable. Be realistic guys.
About the glitch-arguments regarding the 14% run, yes, it uses 2 small glitches (Zebetite skip and ghost through platform before Botwoon). Both are common techniques in every other run form nowadays (any%, 100%) though, making the 14% not different than this "legit" runs.
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Excellent information you got there inichi. Thank you. It will definitely be of use for other TASer who want to make a run of this great game.
inichi wrote:
As a reference, you might want to watch my Chrono Trigger test TAS, which misses some known glitch, but still contains some good boss strategies in it.
If I may ask, do you mean you found even faster boss strategies in the meantime than in this testrun of yours? I was really impressed by them, so it would be hard to imagine they are still improvable.
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Thanks everyone.
My 14% run is also now available in a high quality AVI:
http://www.archive.org/download/SuperMetroid_TAS_14p_27_Saturn/SuperMetroid_TAS_14p_27_Saturn.avi
(103 MB)
As for the smv, I will think about releasing it in the near future.
Zurreco:
There is no doubt that 0:27 is the fastest possible time for a 14% run. Getting a 0:26 would require to improve my run by a whole minute, which is just too much to be possible.
Kriole wrote:
Don't really get your reasoning. So jumping is faster than running? Think I'm gonna quit TASing =(.
Just tested it, and it actually doesn't make a difference, because when I jump high on the first jump, I can do the 2nd jump much lower, while you were forced to do the 2nd jump with max height instead. It equals in the end. The reason your attempt was slightly slower is, as you apparently noticed already, because of a slight inaccuracy during the canceled damage boost.
Kriole wrote:
Cheniways, really nice low%. I think the highlight was the WS lake, I bet you got that idea from your redesign run. It surprised me that you opted not to use most of the bigger timesavers, but still you claimed you struggled for a 27 minute time. This is probably where you pondered if you should restart.
Right, my bomb jumping knowledge from Redesign definitely helped me at that lake. And yeah, I obviously didn't know that it would get so close with the timer at first, otherwise I would of course take more effort to optimize the run in the early parts.
hero of the day wrote:
What did you do differently in the ws attic? Was there some thing special, caused it looked like every other run except for the fact that you killed the hopper dude with missiles.
Yeah, it's the Ki-Hunter kill. Wastes a Missile in the end (the Super can be refilled back or exchanged for a big energy drop) but saves a few frames because you can start running sooner to the left.
hero of the day wrote:
In the ws basement, you showed off a pretty neat tech. Mockballing into the hole and laying a regular bomb instead of using a PB. Was it faster?
Nope. It ended up 6 frames slower IIRC. The reason I used it was for experimental sake because my previous tests of this strategy weren't fully optimized. It wasn't much of a loss, so I didn't bother to redo it again.
hero of the day wrote:
Draygon fight was great. Proving the speed booster to not be needed here at all. Now you gotta find a way to 1 round this guy ;)
Impossible, sorry. :-)
hero of the day wrote:
I noticed a damage boost in the last metroid room, useful to other runs? I noticed a damage boost in the 4th escape sequence room, beneficial to other runs?
The Metroid boost was forced, because I had to wait for the last refill. I didn't test, but it might be possible it saves even more time in the next room than it requires in the previous room to wait. Needs to be tested to know for sure. As for the Escape boost, it's at least the fastest option in a speedboosterless low% run. In your any%, you are invincible for a while due to a hit in the previous room after the spark, so you can climb through the pirate on the left wall immediately. Should be around same fast in the end, I guess.
And regarding Phantoon 1-round with 1 Missile Pack, maybe it's indeed possible, but the delay you would require to have all refill drops in the right position before the Missile-Wave would probably end up as long as just doing 2 quick rounds. The 2-rounder allows for some more important refill drops though, which should also be considered.