Posts for Tangent


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Experienced Forum User
Joined: 3/9/2009
Posts: 530
Vykan12 wrote:
Voting no. Perhaps I'm the only one out of the people who've posted that hasn't played the game, but that wasn't impressive to watch. The game looks like super mario bros meets MS paint, and we're treated to "run right for justice in a graphically abhorrent game".
To build off this, like the recently turned-down Kaizo hack, for the majority of the game, there's only a narrow window of options actually available, so a TAS looks nearly identical to a non-TAS besides running over the top of the last level. The point of the game is discovering all of the things that can kill you and toying with player assumptions. Without that... Also, is there any reason you didn't use the acceleration key? That seems like a strange decision for a TAS.
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Joined: 3/9/2009
Posts: 530
Bobo the King wrote:
Tangent wrote:
Your algorithm is a kind of rudimentary version of Dynamic Programming where you're only exploring around the matrix within a few steps of the current best value instead of building the entire matrix. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynamic_programming You can obviously see where that's dangerous and will give wrong answers when there are big differences due to major route changes or an incorrect assumption about what the target is, but if you're careful with your assumptions for how the matrix is built and pruned, you could probably use it in small bursts on just about any game.
Belying your lurker status, you seem to understand this run better than a lot of vested members do. Yes, it is a very rudimentary form of dynamic programming (I don't consider myself a programmer and I never pass up an opportunity to emphasize that). As such, it's virtually certain that this run is not perfect. If I could execute my program to a search depth of 80 (not possible!), it would theoretically be perfect. This run was made by setting the depth to 1 and the breadth to 2, but if this is somehow accepted, I would like to improve it by increasing the depth to 3 and the breadth to 4 or so. To produce this run, I left my computer on overnight and even then it was only able to complete relatively small chunks (roughly 30 levels) at a time and it became very hot. I can improve it (maybe by 10 minutes or so), but it will require doing just three levels at a time and working on it for about a month before stitching all the movies together.
I've thought about trying to make a DP script in the past because I think it'd be very neat and useful for exploration to find glitches based on counter-intuitive inputs, but I have neither the free time nor expertise to devote to a project like that. You might give a thought to trying it some very short run that you could build the whole matrix like Donkey Kong, Monopoly or Urban Champion. That could at least verify that your algorithm appears to work and let you find any issues. It would be most powerful on one of the menu runs that has a limited amount of randomness, or at least randomness that can be well-controlled. Any run that you'd be able to prune the matrix based on homogeneity of system state results from input would be immensely more efficient. Unfortunately, most of those tend to be RPGs, which are far too long and often abuse strange glitches (Chrono Trigger's extremely non-route route comes to mind).
Experienced Forum User
Joined: 3/9/2009
Posts: 530
Your algorithm is a kind of rudimentary version of Dynamic Programming where you're only exploring around the matrix within a few steps of the current best value instead of building the entire matrix. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynamic_programming You can obviously see where that's dangerous and will give wrong answers when there are big differences due to major route changes or an incorrect assumption about what the target is, but if you're careful with your assumptions for how the matrix is built and pruned, you could probably use it in small bursts on just about any game.
Experienced Forum User
Joined: 3/9/2009
Posts: 530
Eh. I have too many other projects on my plate right now (not TAS related, sorry). I just remembered the error from my misspent youth and was kind of surprised that it wasn't used. It's REALLY irritating in the last stage, where almost any screen forces a huge backtrack.
Experienced Forum User
Joined: 3/9/2009
Posts: 530
I hate to necrobump this, but I was curious about one trick that doesn't seem to have been taken into account or addressed anywhere that I'm pretty certain would shave off quite a bit of time. On some stages, one of the 'hidden' things activated by shooting at them is a bird which takes Minnie and flies away. She must then be retrieved before the level can be finished by finding another hidden thingie (always a key once Minnie's gone) that takes Mickey to a room, yada yada. The thing is, no matter where in the room you pick up the key, it deposits you back in the same room in the lower left corner. The main use for this is that if Minnie is kidnapped on stage 1, after getting the stage exit key, Mickey can go to the room with the star weapons, pick up the key there to retrieve Minnie, and he'll be dumped out in the bottom corner, skipping about half the walk back (~4 screens total... 3 really since rescuing Minnie is about as long as one screen). This also results in a few other potential time savers. Since you're taking a path that doesn't involve the cat on the way back, it can be skipped again instead of killed, and you don't need to have Minnie present when you pick up her weapon so time can be saved later by grabbing that while you're in the room anyway, although it may still be faster to manipulate the key to appear in the upper right corner and still skipping it instead of the upper left next to the chest. In other words, the new path would look like this (excuse the MSPaint drawing) Apologies if this was known and doesn't work because of the manipulation needed, but I'm pretty sure that skipping around a quarter of the first stage more than offsets the time. You wouldn't even need a bot or knowledge of the game's memory addresses for it either. ^^
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