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For display purposes, the ingredients do have a "hitbox" of sorts, you can pick them up from various locations (likely to account for multiple coordinate possibilities). So essentially you'd find the possible places to pick up the ingredient and note the hitbox for it as the coordinates from each area.
If you're actually going to do this asfar, you're in for a long couple of weeks worth of work.
Here is the rough draft (might have typos in it) of my full TAS route:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/ch89z457wlc8qb9/Secret-of-Evermore-TAS-route.pdf
If you guys want to take a look and give some feedback, I'm open to changing things. A small note though in Act 2, the two 40 water pickups can happen at any time, I'm just not sure where exactly I want the 2nd pickup to happen. Also, I decided against against some specific RNG manipulations within the run because they would take weeks to obtain most likely and I'd need 5 of them to happen... I'm not that patient since it only saves around 3-5 frames total compared to just picking up some containers slightly out of the way. I'm also looking to kill a maggot just after Thraxx to use the pickup glitch to obtain some crystals that way such that I could buy water for 20 talons from acid rain guy and hopefully bypass a pickup in act 2. The amount of time to do both is still in need of testing though.
Either way, I had to start over to make all these changes and I'm back at the flower grind in the southern forest...
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And as fast as I was back working on this, it's completely come to a stop again. We're in the process of testing whether or not obtaining Sting level 2 is faster than Crush level 3 and the testing is essentially halted until post SGDQ marathon...
I went ahead and did some initial timings just to figure out the route through Act 1 regarding the "new" route assuming it turns out a little quicker and it's turning out to not really make a damn bit of difference honestly. So yeah, it's kind of in limbo currently and where I'm at right now in the TAS is essentially where all the changes actually start. It sucks because I was super motivated to get this going again and now I'm just stuck waiting.
edit:
Seems Assassin17 on the SDA thread posted some nice information I wasn't aware of. You seem to be able to abuse a pickup glitch from enemy drops (or other ingredient pickups) that allows you to pickup more of another type of drop. For instance, a Mad Monk on the Eastern Beach drops 75 Jewels. If I were to pick up the 75 Jewels from the enemy drop, then immediately pick up the Vinegar in the area, I'd pick up 75 Vinegar instead of the normal 1/2/3/4 (depends on pick up order). I think this will end up saving a ton of time in act 2. Act 1 may end up remaining the same since my attack at that point is very weak and the route itself is quite solid. If it's possible, however, to manipulate an enemy to drop 25-30 crystals somewhere and it's not too far out of the way, I'll do that and eat the time loss to purchase ingredients for act 2 in act 1.
Another change that comes along with this is in the pyramids, there's a container with 2 call beads that has an enemy right by it which hopefully can drop jewels. If this is the case, I'll have quite a lot of call beads to use and possible not need as much Sting/Crush for later areas. Considering I haven't gotten to Act 2 yet, I haven't yet decided whether or not I want to use Sting or Crush. Sting is probably going to be my option since I can menu cancel out of the animation faster than Crush. Other people's input here is more than welcome if they're familiar with the game mechanics.
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Yeah you can blow yourself up with the chickens, that's already in the plan since it's quite literally the only thing Lemon requested when I started all this nonsense; lol.
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The turning every frame could be nice to do, I'll definitely play around with that idea.
Kiting enemies is somewhat boring since there's only going to be a max of 5, so it'd get boring fast. Also, regarding enemies, I can't hit them at 100% energy anyways because of how the underflow glitch works as well as the fact that they can't hit me because I'll have invincibility active.
The pause between drawn things is definitely going to happen, like a 60 frame pause with me just spinning the character in place probably.
I was also thinking about messing with the desert zip and seeing if i can't figure out how to horizontal zip instead of vertical, it's happened before so if I can find it I'll just zip to all 4 corners of the desert stopping before the loading zones.
Another idea I had was just messing around in the market buying stuff if my route permits it, which it more than likely doesn't, lol. I could kill a couple of enemies to get money to do a few things just to leave something in the TAS for the old school runners where we got the +hit stuff and other nonsense that really wasn't needed.
Thanks for the suggestions Patashu. :)
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Small update on this since I haven't really said much lately and haven't streamed it either.
I had a new attempt that's 4.6s ahead of the previous attempt. Unfortunately, right as I got to Thraxx, I figured out a new movement sequence optimization for the dog and the boy, so I've restarted at the Jaguar Tooth Ring guy's cave to take full use of that new discovery. Also, thanks to the information Omni's helped me with, such as finding the character position addresses, manipulating specific things has become infinitely easier than before.
We've also determined that the RNG is dependent upon the frame and the action (or non-action) or the non-player controlled character. I have yet to determine if later when doing the banquet skip if the R/L buttons will allow the RNG to be altered as the dog isn't technically present on a select few screens.
Once I get up to Magmar I'll release another WIP. Unfortunately, I'm at a stopping point post-Magmar since something is currently being tested and the person doing the tested hasn't posted results yet/done the testing yet. I may end up testing this stuff out myself and if I feel it's faster than the previous route method, I'll be using that... but this obviously pushes back work on the TAS. Regardless, once that's been figured out, I'll be flying through this game.
All that being said, how about some suggestions on what to do during the 14 minute desert waiting period, I was thinking of spelling TASVIDEOS or PANDA (possibly both... probably) in the sand via character movement. It doesn't leave an impression (footprints) in the sand or anything, so it's really just something to do. Any other ideas would be great, my only requirement is that we're not killing anything at all, I want the level to be as low as possible.
I'm also going to put together a TAS route on my Secret of EVermore guide that I've been constantly re-updating every time something new is implemented into the route. It's basically just a rough outline of things to come and currently (Because of the above statement) only goes up through Act 1. Either way, hopefully it will let people see why I get things I do and how the money management, etc... is taken care of. It's in .xlsx format, if requested I can upload a .pdf, but I don't think people will care too much.
Here it is (keep in mind act 1 is the ONLY part done for the TAS).
https://www.dropbox.com/s/3tngl51cd0rolxf/Secret-of-Evermore.xlsx
I definitely haven't given up on this, just been occupied with other things. :)
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Yeah, they're on separate emulators. It's definitely where the problem was regarding the frame count differences, as everything else except one thing (4 frame loss on my end, which is fixed now) is basically exactly the same, obviously excluding name entry. I knew there was a difference in how they handled lag but I don't think I was expecting it to be that large. Anyways, SoE TAS is back on track.
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So I've been working on those robots with the "nothing" drop to improve my intro time. Seems that when I enable the lag counter on the TTAS Lemon did (Snes9x 1.5.1 v7) and on my movie for Bizhawk (latest release version), there's a 500+ difference prior to the boy/dog first being visible. Is this normal? Is it why I can't seem to match the frame count Lemon got in his TTAS at the robots? I know these are probably common sense questions but that's a huge difference so I want to make sure if it is or isn't.
I've started from complete scratch for my new WIP, will post it when I'm happy with a place to stop... likely Thraxx. Should be much more optimized.
Big thanks to Omnigamer for helping me with finding the character positions, they'll help a lot in the future. Here's the addresses:
004EA5 (Vertical Position)
004EA3 (Horizontal Position)
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Here's what occurs when starting the game with a save file already present on the cart:
-Skip Intro via Start
-Different "entering" sequence for the first area (the one with the flowers)
So there are some pretty major differences there as the entering sequence after the intro plays out is a ton of text before you can move and when you CAN move, you're much further right than if starting from a save file present cart. If it wasn't for the differences during this sequence i wouldn't care and would just make a verification movie. But since RNG is entirely dependent upon positional status for each character, this can really cause some issues if we were to just simply "remove" the intro.
So yeah, I'm still up in the air on what to do, which is why not much has gotten done on it.
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Hey guys, sorry for the double post. Here's my WIP thus far (only up to Thraxx).
https://www.dropbox.com/s/yhajfpkmy0gvpq8/SOE-TAS-V1.4.bkm
Will keep you guys updated as I progress, really enjoying all the TAS stuff and I'm learning a ton from it.
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That is extremely useful :)
I've been trying to locate some good visual references for when to "charge through" an exploding turret in the 1st stage for you by the way, I think I've got a couple but I'm going to test them a bit first then get some pictures or something silly like that. That or give you an input sequence that will give you optimum speed within a specific range for going through exploding enemies.
On a side note, here's my progress for stage 1:
1st run = 5458 frames
2nd run = 5402 frames
3rd run = 5348 frames
4th run = 5303 frames (this is the one I lost to a Bizhawk crash)
5th run = 5382 frames
6th run = 5371 frames
7th run = (wip, I'm hoping to get another/lower than 5303)
So in real-time that's something like 58s average by how you (omni) time it and something like 56-57 for IL table timing (not sure EXACTLY where they start, thus a range instead of specific). It seems that certain enemy positions can be manipulated via the speed at which you're going through the area, for instance:
Situation 1 - Flying along the O2 tanks blowing them up results in the 2 mechs above me being relatively calm.
Situation 2 - Slightly quicker movement through that area (same frame count result at the end, just optimizing things slightly, only O2 tank that matters is the last one) results in the 2nd mech shooting constantly at a left+down angle regardless of position while the 1st mech will attempt to drop through the floor relentlessly.
Situation 3 - Walking. This is the most random of the two, it's likely caused by how far/close the camera is or you are to them in a proximity fashion.
It could also be noted that each of those has variations in how long you press/hold B, but I tried using various button presses to determine if this was the case and the result I came up with was no.
13+ hours so far messing with 1 stage... A hitbox/collision script would be flat out god tier for TAS'ing this game and optimizing movement. Speed indication can be figured out via position increments (1, 2, 4, etc...) so it's not AS big of a factor but it would be useful for certain locations.
Omni, do you happen to know which missions require a mech to complete them? Or is it simply all of them do unless the end of the mission is within a human access only area?
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Anything you're willing to share honestly. It's all helpful. The most interest I have in it though is the exp efficiency and collision scripts. If you ever got the HP per enemy (and hitbox?) script(s?) working those would be quite nice to have as well.
Lemon and I have been planning to work on this together for quite some time and we plan to test everything down to the frames so anything at all helps honestly. I even plan to make backups to test the separate routes for maximum speed.
Anywho, thank you for the quick response Gunty, I'll go back to working on the TAS asap.
EDIT: Got it working Gunty, thanks a ton. Now we can move along with the rest of it once Lemon has some free time again.
How exactly does this work? I've been trying for ~4 hours or so to manage this trick with frame by frame input and I'm clearly missing something. If anyone could explain it in basically a step-by-step manner that would be awesome.
So far this is what I've determined you do from the video:
run up a bit
run diagonal left 1 or 2 units of distance from the old guy
run past him slightly
turn left (or right? or does it matter? can't tell from video)
turn that direction again (now facing downwards)
talk to old guy
wait for optional dialogue choice
jump when making the choice (or whatever frame it is possible on)
The results I've gotten so far:
Jumped straight up most of the time
Jumped in place occasionally
Jumped left/right rarely (these made me think I was on the right track)
Never gotten him to jump downward like in the video, which makes me think I'm missing a specific piece of the puzzle but I'm out of ideas so far.
Any help with this would be great as I'm hoping to at least get this TAS started so I have something to work on alongside the Secret of Evermore TAS I'm working on.
Also, Gunty, are you still working on that lua script with all the information on it? If so, do you plan to release it at some point? That script is just amazing, awesome work.
Thanks in advance all.
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Followed you Dragonfangs, I think I've actually talked to you a bit in Kirby's stream?
Unfortunately I've missed just about every stream of his lately. :(
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@RGamma:
Yeah, I've looked that over quite a bit actually. It and Pheenoh streaming the TAS WIP for Twilight Princess are why I even started this stuff up. That page doesn't get into the finer details of things like someone doing a WIP on stream would. You get the thought process, the testing, the various methods of dealing with "randomness," and other things like that with a stream, a tutorial can't really compete in those areas, which is why I made this thread. Hoping to follow a few people so I can maybe pick up on some of those finer details while working on my own stuff and implementing it where possible if applicable.
@Spikestuff:
Thanks, will definitely look into all of those.
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I was just wondering if any TASVideos people are streaming their WIP's or testing... I know it's not exactly the most entertaining thing to watch but as someone wanting to really get into this it would be nice to see others in the same boat or someone starting a project from ground up.
Thanks.
Also, I don't mean this to be a "Post tons of stream links" thread by the way, if you're going to post a stream please at least tag a game list or something to that degree onto it as well. Hopefully it doesn't get out of hand...
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Patashu wrote:
TheAngryPanda wrote:
Well unfortunately my progress towards Act 2 is cut short at the moment... During the Magmar fight (last boss of Act 1) the game wants to crash every time I 8 cast, so I'm going to completely re-do the fight from where I had left off and try manipulating it a bit differently.
IMO this is a job for doing Magmar attempts from that save state in real time/in slowdown time rather than slow TASing. Grind out attempts to see under what circumstances you get the crash and under what circumstances you don't. Try making save states closer and closer to the end of the fight to see how much you can 'manipulate' it crashing or not based on what different things you do, and your intuition of how much it can be manipulated will form.
I actually have a fairly good idea of what happened that caused this rather odd issue. I'm probably a slight bit too far up with the camera, which loads the animations of the bubbling lava in the corners. Manipulating Magmar to the middle platform, damaging him with both characters, glitching him out by hitting him mid air, and 8x casting on top of that is probably a bit much with the extra animations everywhere. Anywho, I'll figure it out off-stream then pick up where I left off in the fight.
EDIT: so what actually happened was a permanent sprite overflow caused by exiting the screen on a certain frame or frame range, which "froze" the part of the game that has how many sprites are being displayed at any given time. Essentially I locked it at 10 (8+boy/dog), 2 more and a boss casting a spell would crash the game. So yeah, fun little bug, either way, it's fixed and Magmar will be down soon-ish and then I can post my WIP for you guys to find any errors that I don't already know about (I'll list the errors when I post the video).
Going to stream my WIP on this project. http://www.twitch.tv/theangrypanda1
My past broadcasts have just about everything else up to this point, or at least all the relevant things if anyone cares about my progress thus far, it's really not THAT interesting unless you're familiar with the tricks involved.
EDIT2: I've been busy making up a marathon route for SGDQ regarding this game so I haven't gotten to work on the TAS much since I last streamed. I know the Magmar strat works now, so I need to re-do the fight and post my WIP with what I know is wrong with it, then see if anyone can point out more mistakes/suggestions to improve it further, then I can work on v1.4 of the TAS, which will essentially start completely over minus the intro.
EDIT3: So been a while I guess. I decided to go and fix all the small errors within the TAS since I wasn't happy showing the previous WIP with all the lazy errors and optimizing in it. Currently working towards getting through the intro again with much better flowers and damage patterns. Then I need to refine the Thraxx fight again so it doesn't end with the dog being launched across the map costing me ~3s total alone (miserably lazy on my part). Once that's over I just need to get to Magmar again and I should be very happy with the result and finally able to provide you guys something to watch.
One thing I was hoping to find somewhere was a "guide" or something for LUA hitbox scripts so i could make one to further illustrate some things and honestly just to learn the process so I can hopefully handle things myself instead of having to rely on others to do it for me. If anyone can point me in the right direction to get started with this, please PM me, I'd really appreciate the help.
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Well unfortunately my progress towards Act 2 is cut short at the moment... During the Magmar fight (last boss of Act 1) the game wants to crash every time I 8 cast, so I'm going to completely re-do the fight from where I had left off and try manipulating it a bit differently. If this doesn't work then I'm at a loss for what's causing the crash, my only guess is either too rapid of input or too many sprites on the screen, which if the latter is the case, means Magmar generates multiple sprites during movement and simply having numbers on the screen (energy bar/damage amount) will cause the crash. If it's the rapid input, that's easily delayed and fixed, but so far I haven't found a long enough delay for it.
As soon as Act 1 is done (this fight is done) I'll post my WIP here with some corrections I already know I'm going to make, but I need proof of concept for my strategy on Magmar first.
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Oh yeah, that helps. :D
Thanks a ton Pasky, you have no idea how much time that'll save me in regards to calculations and whatnot. It could also help people gauge exactly how much time they have left in real-time runs to enable further optimizations for them during the "15 mins" instead of playing it super safer like normal.
Going to be doing lots of testing for a while.
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So just watching 7e2515 won't do us any good, correct? Well... wait, it updates as we enter the market right? If that's the case, I could simply do a rough calculation to find a range of frames to enter the market at that would allow me maximum play around time (since that's basically all that happens during this) before having to run through the market and enter the cutscene on the proper frame. Would this kind of idea work if I just regularly checked the timer every 7200 frames (~2 minutes, i say ~ because transitional screens and other functions "stop" the timer) to see where I was?
Also, didn't think to look at the save timer... Figuring this out could lead to methods to exploit it if we could find a way/thing that advances the timers rather than stopping it. That would be very nice to discover, but it's far beyond my capabilities at the moment.
Either way, thanks for finding a reference point if anything Pasky, much appreciated.
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Unfortunately the save I was using for testing ended up getting used to test another thing during the magmar fight (which is a giant PITA). When I get another one close I'll post the SRAM and probably a WIP for Act 1. Here's hoping it doesn't take too terribly long and thanks again for the help Patashu/Pasky.
edit: Thanks Darklink.
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Didn't think about it possibly increasing over time. I'll do some more searching and post if I've found it or not tomorrow or whenever I get the chance to do some more testing. Thanks for the reply Patashu.
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Hey guys, I've been trying to find the timer for the "15 minute" grind that starts in Nobilia in the RAM. Would anyone happen to already know it because I'm turning up nothing. :(
Lots of new tricks have been discovered for this game and I'm hoping to make a TAS of it at some point for the Any% category. Aiming for sub 1 hour.
Anyways, thanks in advance if someone happens to know what the address to watch is.