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Good and bad news, indeed. I'm impressed you were able to do this, and I'm curious to find out how. And I wonder if input splicing will work in this instance. It usually doesn't, apparently. On a different note, I've gotta say, really nice route through Sandopolis. It surprised me when you went through the wall on the lowest path.
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Ah, well that sounds like a damning... a pretty damning fact.
Ohhhh, yeah, I see.
How to reload them...?
Also, here's something to consider when routing SOZ1, that I wanted to make sure you're aware of in case you weren't already (it's a kind of obscure piece of info I remember listed as a side note in one of MarzoJr's texts): see the blue hill with four rings on it? When Sonic has a fire shield, he can roll-jump and fall through it, or any other such hill exactly like that one in SOZ only.
I think this method will be necessary to get the rings in the pictured KTE area. To get in, camera glitch by dashing off the ledge on the other side (from the left, not shown); to get out, use the flame dash glitch. Luckily, there's a fire shield left of the door. Again, like WST said, and like I've said before, it's like the devs somehow knew ahead of time that we would need this someday. Prophetic level design...
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Here is a WIP of the rings table.
I'll refrain from posting additional submission text-related items until the time comes, but I thought Evil_3D might find the rings table in particular useful before then. Just note that signpost monitor rings are always listed as part of Act 1 (IIRC). And don't fret about AIZ and ICZ Act 1/2 values, they are off because of overlapping rings; just worry about Zone totals (3rd row for each).
I should really have done this in Excel, but I don't know how to use the software so I did it all by hand. I can't guarantee it's free from human error, but it should be, hopefully; I double and triple checked everything. If it is, that would probably make this the single most comprehensive and accurate S3K rings table on the internet right now.
Let's see... in making the table, several important questions came to mind:
-MGZ1: In-game ring count maxes out at 999. Is it possible to verify the excess 37 rings were collected, perhaps with RAM watch, or by any other means?
-LBZ1: Might it be possible to get all signpost monitors here, using a method similar to that used in ICZ? See more about what I mean in the Orkal videos here,here, and here.
-DDZ: This stage consists of an on-the-rails auto-scrolling section followed by an infinitely looping section with theoretically infinite rings, subject to time constraints, correct? What would be the best way of determining the ring values for the ring table, if that's the case? And, technically, shouldn't the battle be prolonged deliberately, in order to collect as many infinitely looping rings as possible, so as to finish with only a single or a few ring(s) at the last possible second? I imagine it wouldn't be the full ten minutes, because the ring loss over time effect depletes rings faster than infinitely looping rings appear to restore them, right?
Lastly, Evil_3D, and I know I've mentioned this already, but once again, I should caution you to be very careful you do in fact collect all the rings you're supposed to in ICZ. I can't tell for sure because of the screwy Act totals there, but there seems to be 13 rings I can't account for based on your video's Act 1 ring total.
P.S.: Here's a couple rings-related memory addresses from my old notes, taken from Sonic Retro. I never actually got around to using them myself, so I don't know if or how well they would work (ring count according to memory might differ from, or be incompatible with, our method of counting rings), but here they are anyway just in case anyone might find these useful.
$FEC8-$FEC9 Rings collected since level load. Resets if you enter Special/Bonus stage. Starts recounting from 0 when level is reentered. Unknown use.
$FF04-$FF05 Total rings remaining to be collected in a level. No perfect bonus is actually given for collecting all the rings, making this variable virtually useless.
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I had only hoped to get my name in the credits, but if you mean to offer to put it in the title... well, what else could I say except thank you, that's so cool of you. If you want, I can begin writing up some parts of the general submission text, including a ring table with the same formatting I used in mine. Actually, I had already begun working on the ring table because I thought I might offer it to you in the future, but, so I could continue doing that, I mean.
AIZ looks great, maybe someday I would be able to contribute some inputs on future levels, but unless the project happens to take off first I'm personally content to wait until you finish the Sonic and Tails run, so as not to distract you or delay that. It's amazing you have come this far, and so quickly too. At this rate you could be done by the end of the year, and be a shoe-in for TAS of the year, IMO. But of course, it is best not to worry about that, and not to rush things.
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Oh yes, I watched your tutorial video again, now I see (not sure what I was thinking). So cool. Good work finding that. Maybe you should try your hand getting Knuckles into Sonic and Tails' area in Lava Reef 1, sometime.
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It started out crazy, and then at precisely 1:37 it went completely insane and never looked back.
Now I wonder how Act 2 will be? I mean, will you have to slow down for it to follow you all the way back to Sonic's Act 1 area, or can you race ahead and it will conveniently reappear there on its own? It will be entertaining either way.
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Fun run.
Is everything so far all part of the actual TAS you will be submitting, someday? You're so far already. I hope your save file is good, and I hope someone has verified it as acceptable.
Looks like you'll definitely pass 1,000,000 points before the end. Easily.
Be prepared for some rings count fuckery going into ICZ. It has overlapping Act 1/2 rings, and don't forget there's a double ring (or two) on the S/T path above KTE's first exclusive area.
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I'm not sure what bridge you mean? But your route's solid. The only thing is the backtracking on the lowest path. I remember that dilemma, too. It seems inevitable for ICZ2's eccentricities, which require things get done certain ways. But I know now why my old route is the way it is. It's a solution to this.
The idea is using slope glitch and then Tails to get KTE's 3 boss rings, then ejecting straight to the start of lowest path so it can be traveled without backtracking. Then of course using the mid- and upper-paths going back to and from Sonic's sub-boss, who gets skipped initially so the boundary doesn't form.
If the boundary does form for some reason then there's no point skipping the boss. However, in that case the mid- and upper-paths can be used to and from the checkpoint, and everything else is basically the same, and so the strategy should still work.
Yeah, perfect imperfections.
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This is a bit random and off-topic, but to any other S3K TASers out there, may I just ask, how do you feel the overall experience of having TASed S3K has influenced your opinion of the game?
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Bonus stage shield, hm? Makes me nervous...
Don't forget those 3 rings above the triple monitor chamber near the end of CNZ1, by the gravity pads and wheel. There's no line drawn to them.
Here's those files.
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Yes, I will do that sometime in the next few days.
I'm curious, about how many hours would you say you spent on that act? And how many rerecords?
Also, you mentioned doing a difficult rings video tutorial. I think that's a great idea (why didn't I ever think of that?) and I encourage you to do it, when you get a chance. As for me, I'm now thinking about getting to work on a written rings guide - everything anyone could possibly want to know about S3K's rings - that I feel should exist by now on the internet, not because anyone will ever read it, which I'm sure they won't, but simply just because. Maybe I'll put it on GameFAQs... someday. In the meanwhile, I'll be happy to share what materials I have with you soon, as I said.
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Smooth moves, slick. Seriously. Wow.
The way you handled KTE's Robotnik cutscene, among many other things, blew my mind a little, and that ending -- fantastic! I think this is hands-down your best work, or at least the most entertaining level, so far.
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Ah, good, yes, that's exactly the method I described, fundamentally. I'm glad to see it working, but I wonder why the roof barrier wasn't there that time? Well, at least we know it can work. However, there still remains the question of what route to use. I actually didn't know it was possible to exit the area via KTE's cutscene room without having entered through there in the first place. So, while the method of obtaining the rings is the same, the difference between the video's and my own route lies in the approach.
I would have come in from below, spending more time initially in the cutscene room but making it up on my way out. My route also precludes the need for the carry glitch, yet seemingly requires more backtracking. Beyond that, I see no significant difference, making it hard to speculate on which is faster - especially without looking at them in the context of their placement within their respective level routes, and comparing those. Whichever one proves ideal depends heavily on how well it synergizes with the broader route for the level, and whether it accords a faster route, overall. So really, I think your best bet would be to just experiment on your own if and when you come to that point in the official TAS, potentially trying both routes and seeing what works for you.
Also, awesome HCZ1! I especially liked how you handled the whole part with the lightning shield and the mass of rings on the ceiling. You nailed it. Well done.
Edit:
Oh. Well then. Disregard most of what I just said.
Although, I thought I tried it both ways, with and without triggering the earthquake, in my recent tests, and the wall was there both times. I think I started from the same save point at the end of Act 1, rather than loading directly into Act 2 from level select. If Act 1 earthquakes affect this, somehow, that could be a problem. It might not matter, for all I know, but if you can, perhaps you should find out how Kaan55 got to Act 2...
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With LBZ1, you want to slope glitch into the walls above KTE's pre-sub-boss chamber and use Tails to collect the rings. You have to take Sonic's sub-boss because of the extra signpost monitor - KTE has no choice but to take his own because Sonic's won't load for him, IIRC. There's a "visual aid" or route map here.
Also there is a full route map for DEZ1, and DEZ2 for the heck of it, as well as a .gmv showing how to grab the monitors in a single pass and then progress into the lower shortcut as per the included route. Hopefully it doesn't desync; if it does, and you would like me to, I can at least record an .avi.
I guess you're right about SOZ1. However, I wonder, does it make sense that debug mode could interfere so that Tails retains his slope-glitched status while on screen? I know for a fact that if you can get him near the wall rings, by the springrope and monitor, he can get them, because I just watched that happen in an old trial run, where slope-glitched Tails remained on screen with debugged-Sonic (meaning debug was active in the level, and I had used it before, but at the time Tails was on screen I was not actively using it - Sonic was normal).
Oh, and your ICZ2 is good, but I seem to remember running diagonally through the wall, collecting the wall rings along the way, and coming out on top with the slope glitch still in tact, then grabbing the rings with Sonic with no need to wait for Tails to respawn. Accomplishing this would have involved the last 2 loops in the level, and the iced monitor in the top left corner of the upper path leading to those loops. So you might want to play around with it some more, or maybe I'll see if I can't record it myself this weekend and show you.
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DEZ1 rings:
I'm not sure what I meant by 'upcarry,' probably meant to describe the type of Tails carry glitch: Sonic looking down and Tails carrying him up, or the reverse of that. Who knows, though, whether 'up' refers to the direction Sonic should look or the direction Tails should carry him. Either way, it's not a big deal, I trust you'll be able to figure it out one way or the other.
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Brace yourself 'cause this is gonna get ugly, straight outta Notepad:
I'll edit this post later and provide a TL;DR/translation that's more intelligible.
Also, you might notice ICZ2 goes beyond the scope of your question, detailing a fairly complicated method of acquiring some rings in the vicinity of KTE's 'exclusive' Act 2 starting route. I just thought I'd include that while I was at it, just in case it might come in handy. I don't remember anymore, but the fact of those notes' existence at all awakens my suspicion that easier, simpler means of obtaining the pertinent rings might not or probably won't work for some reason.
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IIRC, the way I found for getting the rings in ICZ2 was triggering the slope glitch by having Tails smash the ice around any frozen monitor while Sonic's standing on it. There should be one located conveniently close by the rings.
SOZ1... I will have to check. It might be something similar to the ICZ2 method, as SOZ1 has similar breakable blocks, or maybe something involving the sand waterfalls. I will let you know later.
On second thought, I'm pretty sure it involved the pushable blocks - slope glitching by having Tails push it off a ledge while Sonic rides it, maybe?
But like I said, I'll check my notes and let you know later today.
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Here's some more material on MGZ2. The first video shows how to get the ring in the wall described in the notes, the second was supposed to show how to get Knuckles' rings but there was a hitch.
The linked image shows approximately where on the map the problem arose. It's an invisible wall on the roof of the building. In the linked test videos, which I threw together this afternoon, I was unable to bypass the wall. If there is indeed no way around it - whether by somehow slipping through it or preventing it from spawning outright - then the strategy for collecting the rings outlined in my notes won't work, it seems.
You might notice if you play around in the dirtyMGZ movie, that wall isn't there, unlike my most recent test run. Edit: And when I say it isn't there, I mean it is there, but in a different form as it's possible to spindash through it. I don't know why it's present sometimes, but not others; however, I did take a different route to reach it in the previous trial. Yet, in an alternate version of the current trial, when I tried replicating that route, the wall was still there. These are the kinds of things only true geniuses like MarzoJr or WST will understand.
Perhaps a full test route run is in order, meaning tracing the exact route (whatever hypothetical route you choose) from the beginning of MGZ2 (beginning from the end of a 'safe' MGZ1 file, one in which you collect all the rings according to your intended route there) up to and including the problem wall to see what happens. Who knows, maybe something, some variable, would change along the way to solve the problem. I don't have time to perform this test myself, unfortunately. Or maybe dying or entering a starpost at some point would fix it? That's all I can think of.
Good luck man.
Edit: Oh, by the way, I see you said there were 19 rings on Knuckles route which you were thinking of forgoing. I know exactly which ones you mean. You should be able to collect at least 12 of them - all but the final 7. I'm not quite positive about this, but I'm pretty sure... you'd just need to either camera glitch back out of Drill Mobile's room or, if possible, use Tails to glitch through the speed shoes monitor and into the wall and go from there. It might even possible to get back out by going left over the roof, from the small outdoor area between buildings.
Edit: Yeah, I'm positive - I just tested and you can camera glitch back out of Drill Mobile's room, as long as you entered it and opened the trapdoor above beforehand.
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Here's some.
I couldn't find much with Sonic and Tails (SaT) right now besides some test runs for MGZ 1 and 2, which is nice because that's more relevant to the question you were asking. I don't think you'd have much to gain by examining my AIZ runs, for example, since your own AIZ runs were something like 15+ seconds faster already. But if you really want I can look around some more and probably find them. However, for now, I hope this helps.
I did a fair bit of research into SaT ring runs a while back, so I've also included an old route guide I made, and some old - and very poorly written, sorry - notes I found, both pertaining to MGZ. The first movie file, MGZ1, is more in line with your wanting to see just, past examples, I guess, of my SaT TASing, so I hope it will suffice for that; the second movie, MGZ2, is extremely crude and apparently desyncs about half way through, but it may be of some use to you, potentially showing or at least providing some clues as to how to get the rings from Knuckles' area (be sure to watch it with camera-hacked Gens configured to render what's happening off-screen).
Combined with the notes, you might have all the information you need with regard to MGZ2. Although, at this point my memory's hazy and I can't vouch for the reliability of the information, so take it for what it's worth and use it at your own potential peril... but, if my notes are correct, it should be possible to 100% not just MGZ2 but every act in the game as SaT (sans 97 rings in AIZ2, and any mutually exclusive signpost monitor rings).
Oh, and of course my SaT runs are still available on YouTube, in case that helps.