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Blechy wrote:
The most consistent questionable area is defiintely the critical attacks. Is this still a test movie for you? If so, you should test out every little possibility of this area before the next movie. I know you've tested it a lot, but some other things to keep in mind may be a) when the battle begins, b) if you wait to let an ally move before the one you want to crit, c) if you wait to let an enemy move before the one you want to crit, d) party order, e) moving the cursor around before attacking, ex. not just waiting to select the target.
They are even seldom used when unnecessary. For example, on one of the first imps you fight you crit when it's overkill. Perhaps if you tested what causes crits to NOT happen rather than happen, it may lead you on the right path.
This is still a test movie. My main goal on this movie is more to make sure that my strategy works and to get an idea of where problem areas are located and what can be improved on, and not necessarily to make it look pretty or to flow perfectly. I'm playing things a little bit safe, as well, and I'm fighting pretty much any fight that can't be avoided and takes a lengthy amount of time to run from. I'm not paying a whole lot of attention to optimization of fights, both regular fights and boss fights.. I won't be spending a whole lot of time on that, either, until I get to the final run.
I've done extensive testing on critical hits, and here's what I know about them so far:
- Things that I know do influence critical hits: Differing order of ally attacks, waiting to let an enemy attack you
- Things that I know do NOT influence critical hits: Time (either by waiting differing lengths of time to start battle or to attack), moving cursor around or entering/cancelling out of menus before attacking, pausing during battle, acquiring chests, performing story-related events in a different order or skipping them entirely
- Sampyla says talking to non-story related NPCs messes with the critical hit formula, but so far I've yet to see anything which suggests that that is the case.
- I've yet to extensively test whether performing different commands in battle influences critical hits, but again, everything I've seen points toward "No".
- Other things I've noticed about critical hits: If the next attack is going to be a critical hit, whoever attacks next gets the critical, and the order in which critical hits occur carries between battles.
I unfortunately don't have the assembly knowledge to go dissecting the ROM, but the best theory I can come up with is that critical hits, damage, etc is based off of a random number list, where each action taken by either yourself or an enemy draws a number from this list. There seems to be very little I can do to alter this list or where this list is accessed.. as much time and headaches I'll save if I am able to manipulate critical hits at will, I don't see the possibility of being able to manipulate luck in order to throw critical hits on every single attack happening in this movie.
Blechy wrote:
In the forest coming back from 600AD castle, was lucca's shot during the first fight necessary? Could you wait for them to reposition to become affected by the cyclone?
Yes, it was necessary, to preserve the rather nice order of criticals I got from the first movie. It may or may not be gone in the final version, depending on the extent that I can manipulate critical hits.
Blechy wrote:
You covered leveling at the bush. I figured it was anticipating the nagas but wasn't sure.
Yeah, those two fights were there to get Flame Whirl so I could take out the Naga-ettes and other monsters in the Cathedral much faster.
Blechy wrote:
The race: did you conclude if you can use L/R the first time around? You mentioned you weren't going to let him pass you in the final version. If you manage this, I'd suggest that you do let him pass you at the last moment, so you can surprise the viewer by boosting by him at the last second.
Nope, you can't use L/R to change perspectives the first time around. Also, my plan for the final movie is to obtain a perfect score of 2370.. if I can pull off both, I'll do it, otherwise I'll probably be taking the perfection over the suspense.
Blechy wrote:
Agreed that the multiple acid/alkaline fight can be improved. In fact at some point, you have chrono attack a green one(I think these are the acids) when it is at 6 damage. You take some health off, and then robo hits him for 6 anyway. Chrono's attack could have been avoided.
I feel like I remember reading your reasoning for doing this, but couldn't find it. You use the sight cap, right? Why?
As mentioned earlier, I'm not spending a whole lot of time optimizing fights in this version - you'll probably see plenty of mistakes similar to that throughout this version of the run. Right now while going through I'm taking the first version of a fight that looks halfway decent and doesn't leave me too scarred for the next fight - this will be corrected in the final version.
Sight cap? I don't have that yet. I'm getting that near the end of the game so I can be protected against Lavos's Chaos attacks.
Blechy wrote:
Ice water really crushes everything in Magus' castle, I don't know what you refer to it not working against other than bosses. As long as you hit the jugglers with chrono before casting it, you shouldn't have any problems. Though it really is a huge time difference to get frog to be able to cast water... I guess it's something to test for the final version.
Sorcerers absorb Water, and Ice Water won't kill Jugglers outright (even though their shield pattern starts on physical, it simply won't do enough damage to knock off all 400+ HP they have).. but after going through a quick non-recorded trip through Magus's castle, I found they're weak enough against physical attacks for Frog to kill them afterwards anyways with the Masamune. But yeah, Ice Water completely destroys everything else in there that's not a boss, and the tech's far too valuable to go without, since there's far more monsters in there that absorb Shadow (and thus Rocket Roll).. I'll definitely be getting Frog magic in the final version.
Anyways, if any of you've got any more questions, keep firing away.. the more I figure out with this test version, the better the final run is going to look.
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Fro Jackson wrote:
Edit 2: Question time... Why don't you have Crono use his slash or cyclone technique against the giant skeleton guy at the end of the bridge? Does it just not do as much damage as normal attacks? It seems as though you were trying to save your character's MP, but if one of them gets drained of it at the end of the battle anyway, and if it's possible to manipulate who gets drained, what's the point of saving it all up (if that's what you're doing in the first place)? Thanks ^_^
Cyclone is a very time consuming attack (not worth it for the slightly higher attack power vs only one enemy), and Slash is thunder-elemental, which the top part of Zombor absorbs.
ventuz wrote:
3. 600 AD - (bridge) I dont think you need to speak to golden knight to meet his bro (chef), see chef first? (I could be wrong - forgot to try this one out)
I tried avoiding this - you MUST talk to the knight captain first in order to advance the plot.
ventuz wrote:
4. 600 AD - (bridge) I dont think you need to kill skeleton (not boss) to move on, kill Ozzy first will destroy skeletons also (I could be wrong - forgot to check this one out)
How many times must I hit him? If it's more than 3-4, it'll be slower than just taking out the skeletons as I did in the run.
ventuz wrote:
5. 600 AD - (masamune mountain) 2 Practicing Outlaw can be avoided
I'd love to see this - I tried several methods of avoiding this fight, and was unsuccessful.
Tombad wrote:
Still looking nice, but I wonder would using fire whirl be faster against Zombor than fire punch (or something)? Also Volt Bite works wonders against Nizbel, but maybe that would take too many battles to obtain.
Flame Whirl is slightly slower than Fire Punch (Cyclone is a very time consuming move), does quite a bit less damage (Crono's attack is lower than Robo's, and it's based on Flame Toss rather than Fire, which is weaker), and with Robo being the odd man out, he has very little he can use to damage the bottom portion of Zombor (it absorbs Shadow damage, and is resistant to physical attacks).
Volt Bite would take too long to learn. Ayla's skill setup is Kiss (which I learn just before Nizbel) -> Rollo Kick -> Cat Attack, which is what Volt Bite is based off of. I'm still not even sure I'll have Volt Bite before Nizbel II if I run straight through, but I might go ahead and fight just enough battles on the way to pick it up, because I'll likely be in trouble if I don't have a halfway decent lightning attack by that time.
(Edit for ventuz's #2: That's really odd.. must be another of those weird changes made between the Japanese and American versions of the game. When I tried it, if I tried to input the XABY password without learning it in the other section of the factory first, the computer would boot up and then shut down without giving me an opportunity to input the password.)
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And it's progress time again.
Test run 1, update 3[/url], up to the entrance to Magus's Castle. Actual time is 01:58:59, with the official game clock at 01:51. Again, a tad longer than I had hoped, but not by much.. the dialogue (especially the cutscenes with Frog) was a bit longer than I thought it would be.
A save state is included (slot 0), which is saved at the beginning of the End of Time. Be sure to rename it to whatever the name of your ROM is.
Notes on this version:
- I'll definitely need to check sooner or later on how much I can cheat on walking around the walls of Spekkio's room.. though I don't think it'll be all that much.
- I'm pretty sure I avoided all enemies that were avoidable from the End of Time up to this point (with the possible exception of the Reptite Lair), but I don't want to wait for the EvilWeevils to drill holes in the ground, and it'd probably be slower to wait anyways.
- I put a little bit less care into my movements in this version, so you might see the occasional sloppy corner turn here and there, a couple slowdowns as I slip up on state saving, etc. Not much of a big deal, really.
- Just to clarify, the two items I spend about 15-20 seconds going well out of my way down the waterfall in the Denadoro Mountains to get are a SilverStud (-50% MP cost) and a SilverEarring (+25% max HP).. these will definitely be worth it shortly..
- Getting magic for Frog: While it would definitely make it interesting if I totally skipped getting magic for Frog (at least until after the first trip to Zeal or so), I'm not sure how much I'll be relying on it in the upcoming section of Magus's castle, so I went and got it anyways. I expect to abuse Ice Water on most regular enemies, and will likely use SwordStream and maybe Heal against Magus as well, and skipping magic for Frog will make him almost entirely dead weight throughout most of the castle. Though, he might be pretty much dead weight anyways against stuff that won't die to Ice Water.. he's hideously underleveled (only lv12!).. I'll have to wait and see while I progress through the castle.
I'll probably be taking a bit of a break from the run now to do a bit of investigating for the last section of the game.. mostly to determine the M.Def threshold to survive Doors of Doom (Lavos 2's opening attack), Shadow Doom Blaze, and Dreamless at 999 HP with an OmegaFlare party of Magus/Robo/Lucca. Right now I'm hoping it'll be between 70 and 80, and I'll be at around that level at level 40.. I expect to be between 30 and 35 by the time of the Ocean Palace disaster, and so it shouldn't take more than 2-4 trips through the Geno Dome conveyor belt to have all the levels I need. If it's above 80, though, I won't bother stacking Robo with M.Def raising equipment and will just Revive him after any of the above attacks smite him dead. If it's above 85-90, though, I'm pretty much going to throw the OmegaFlare tactic (and any other offense-based tactics) out the window and just shoot for Lifeline, as it'll take far too much time to acquire the levels to be able to ride the attack out.
Next update, when I get going again, will be after Lavos wipes the floor with me in the Ocean Palace.
Questions/comments? Fire away!
(Edit: Oops! This is what you get when you copy/paste XD Link fixed.)
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I would if I could, but unfortunately, it's not realistically possible to kill Lavos in a speedrun at the Ocean Palace, or any place prior to that. There's two main things that prevent me from attempting to kill Lavos at that point in time - the opening attacks by forms 1 and 2 of Lavos, as well as the very next attack it throws, which inflicts Chaos on the entire party, giving Lavos multiple free shots at pasting me into the ground.
The first can't be avoided without either casting Lifeline, which isn't possible since Lavos acts first even with ** speed, having the GreenDream accessory, which can't be obtained until after the Ocean Palace, or leveling yourself up to rather astronomical heights - you'll need to have a very high Def or M.Def rating (I think in the realm of 200+ Def or 90+ M.Def to live through the enhanced Ocean Palace version of Lavos 1's opening attack.. I don't remember if it's a physical or magical attack. Even with maxed out stats of ~230 Def and ** M.Def it does in the neighborhood of 300 damage).. and that's not going to happen with the equipment you can get at that point in the game without some SERIOUS leveling.. well above 50 or so. My goal is to end the game at level 40, with all the levels I need after the Ocean Palace being covered with a trip to the Geno Dome conveyor belt.
The second can't be avoided until after the Ocean Palace anyways - you simply have no access to protection against Chaos (or any other status ailment for that matter, except Slow/Stop) until at least after the Blackbird goes down. Hoping I hit myself out of Chaos won't help, either - Lavos 1's attack pattern, if I remember correctly, is Destruction Rains From Heavens! -> Chaos -> Needle Spin (1 target, high physical based damage and most likely death) -> Repeat. Even in the best case scenario, I'll have myself too occupied with keeping myself alive to be able to throw any attacks at Lavos.
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I'm not too worried about the Blackbird, actually. I do plan on bringing Ayla (she has many excellent single target Double Techs) and skipping over the three character equipment chests by deequipping my best stuff before I get caught by Dalton, if I can. I will likely be picking up my cash, since I'll have plenty left over from the whole Ocean Palace and likely several locations before that, which I will need later, should I decide to do the Sunken Palace quest after all and splurge 150,000 G on 3 Vigil Hats.
However, my biggest worry is what I'll be doing *after* I escape from the Blackbird. At this point I have access to everything I need to go after Lavos with. If I don't wind up getting Magus after all, I'll need to do the Sunken Desert subquest to get access to Vigil Hats, which have status protection on them. Attempting to beat Lavos prior to the Ocean Palace disaster is suicide, since both his first and second form can inflict nasty statuses (such as Chaos) on the entire party, and the soonest I get any status protection is when I obtain Magus after the Blackbird goes down, so if the Magus tactic falls through, this'll be my best alternative.
The entire Black Omen is out - there's nothing there that'll help me fight Lavos quicker or at a lower level, except for a massive cache of Speed Tabs and MegaElixirs - which I think I'll have plenty enough of by that point in the game.
Initially, I pretty much discarded Magus as a potential idea to replace Crono (thus skipping having to revive him), thinking that the effort needed to get his good techs would offset the advantages of having him, but the more I think about it the more I'm convinced it's a good idea. Magus (only needing Dark Bomb) + Lucca + Robo + Blue Rock can use OmegaFlare, the most powerful magic-based triple tech in the game. With Magus's Amulet you get from recruiting him, and the equipment you can get from Ozzie's fort, and a Sight Cap from the Giant's Claw, that'll be 2 of 3 people I can have resistant to all statuses (and all three resistant to Chaos) without needing to go through the whole Sunken Forest quest. However, I would need to go through half the Ozzie's Fort subquest to pick up the equipment, half the Giant's Claw subquest to get the Blue Rock/Sight Cap, as well as having to get Flare for Lucca (her most expensive and longest to obtain tech), and having to do something about Robo's TERRIBLE M.Def, needing to buff the party up a lot to compensate and/or throw a bunch of M.Def raising equipment on him.
...And, I'll post an updated run once I reach Magus's Castle.
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ventuz wrote:
watched your run... in 2300 AD junkyard, were you trying to avoid enemies, or you fought them on purpose? (for xp/tech)
Tilus wrote:
- I just remembered all the enemies in Lab 16 can be avoided, including both mutants just before the end (bypassing the two battles vs Shadows as well).
No, it wasn't on purpose - I forgot they could be avoided. This is just a test run to make sure my strategy through the game works. But yeah, in the final version of the run, they will be avoided.
Anyways, as for progress, Heckran, Zombor, and Masa & Mune have all been defeated, putting me well on the way to my next goal. The run's definitely looking better now, since now that I have magic there's lots more options for me to use to lay waste to any enemies I have to fight.
The run's at just under 1:30 right now, and I'm starting to get a better idea as to how long the full run will take.. I'm expecting somewhere around the 3 1/2 hour mark. Getting it down to 3 hours or less will probably be a bit of a stretch, though.. as I'm relying more on techs and less on physical attacks, I'm seeing less of an opportunity to optimize boss fights to much shorter time than they are now.
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julianch wrote:
i have a problem:
after getting the jobs from the water crystal i try to do a class change, but the game says:
''you don't have enough experience for that''.
what i must to do?.
Well, if you don't have the required CP, you can't change jobs.. which is probably one of the biggest drawbacks to a quick FF3j speedrun. You get a small amount of CP after every battle you fight, and you spend it every time you change jobs.
/*- wrote:
actually, as far as the toad and size thing, from what i can recall, i could still kill enemies in one shot with onion equipment. i know theres something about not being able to USE those items, but i could. this would apply to the SIZE issue. toad is different. maybe leave one character as a variable then? like a red mage or a thief when the time calle for it (no one wants to see too many battles).
1) when you cast Size/Toad on yourself, your attack and defense drop down to 1 regardless of your equipment/level/stats, and 2) if I remember correctly, if you try to un-Size or un-Toad even one of the four in a passageway where you can only pass through with the spell active, it either won't work or you'll get an instant game over. (Besides, I don't think you have to stay Toad-ed through any of the dungeons where you must use the spell - you can change back to normal form without any negative consequences.)
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Well, that's not quite going to solve everything, as there are a few times where you'll have to cast Size or Toad on yourself (and be unable to use Onion or any other equipment during that time), as well as the occasional instance where a boss is only going to be weak vs. a certain class's weapon/skill/magic and is resistant to pretty much everything else.
Besides that, though, it sounds like a pretty good strategy through getting through the meat of the game.
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Bisqwit wrote:
I might be wrong, but I think you don't need to watch the demo that comes when you win the race. Just press some button. At least that worked for me.
Yeah, I forgot about that. There's another 5-10 seconds off the run..
Bisqwit wrote:
I don't know what you are referring to by 'dancing'.
Dancing = running about the screen in silly ways to keep the movie interesting during long dialogue screens.
Also, as for the distracting dancing during the factory, the conveyor belt idea sounds good, but I think I should still be able to do a little something in the upper corner of the room while Robo gets beat up.
Bisqwit wrote:
I'd say this movie is 'very cool', but it's a little obvious to me. But I like it.
I didn't like the movie much, because there was quite a few mistakes I'm kicking myself for making, and that there's not a whole lot that's exciting or extraordinary about the movie yet (besides those inexperienced with the game saying "Wow, that enemy can be avoided?" or "I didn't know you could do that!", but pretty much all of them can be done consistantly on a regular console in realtime). It won't be until I reach Magus's Castle that I begin tempting the fates and start to fight bosses I really shouldn't be fighting at such a low level.
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More progress.
Test run 1, update 2, up until the End of Time. Time is 00:58:06, with the official game clock at 00:54.
A bit slower than Sampyla's supposed time he reached the End of Time, but I know I've made plenty of mistakes in the run already. And, because of this, I don't really like this version of the movie - it's mostly up to see if anyone can catch anything else I can improve on. Regardless, I'm certain I can improve on the current version by a good 5 minutes at least.
Notes on the run:
- Redid the movie up until Yakra, including in all the criticisms from the previous version as well as knocking 40 seconds off the version 1 time to bring it down to 00:16:09. Besides optimizing the Yakra fight itself, the strategy up to that point is pretty much final, with the exception of throwing in a trip to the market in 600 AD to buy Shelters.
- Decided to go the flashy route during the prison tower escape sequence - I didn't realize how short it was to just escape the hard way - I'm now convinced it might even be faster than waiting it out.
- Fights were fought with the goal of avoiding counterattacks above all else. They take up enough time and do enough damage that, especially at battle speed 1, that the extra time waiting through the counterattack and the extra time spent healing the damage caused isn't worth a slight damage increase in most cases.
- In Arris Dome, in the room before you reach the computer terminal which shows you the Day of Lavos, I took a slightly lengthier route (by 1 second) which I thought was more interesting than the left branch which winds around the perimeter of the room. This was one of those speed-for-entertainment tradeoffs that didn't really affect my time that much.
- Yes, you do have to go all the way through the right side of the factory. operating the crane and checking the computer screen to learn the XABY password, as strangely the game won't let you input it to get past the door at the bottom level without "learning" the password first.
Things I know I can improve on:
- I have no earthly idea why I wasted 30+ seconds to pick up the Shelter/1500G/Lode Sword (only ATK +2 over the SteelSaber for just one fight, ugh) in the jail escape.. that'll definitely be cut out in the final version. The money was spent on Iron Helms - losing them shouldn't affect the run any.
- The Guardian fight and the fight vs the 5 Acids/Alkalines in the Factory were both absolutely terrible. There's not much I can do about the first but hope I can manipulate the fates for a better string of criticals. The Acids/Alkalines are weak vs. thunder (Slash), but at that point I'm still quite a bit away from learning it, so I guess I've got no choice in that fight either besides trying to switch targets around to try to get better damage.
- I just remembered all the enemies in Lab 16 can be avoided, including both mutants just before the end (bypassing the two battles vs Shadows as well).
- I didn't look too bad in the bike race (got passed up three times by Johnny, final score was 1930-something), but of course, that can be improved on too.
- I don't think my dancing is quite as good as some of the other dances in other games that are on the site, but they did get a little better later on.
- On second thought, bringing Lucca into the Factory instead of Marle might've been a bad idea. Everything in the Factory is resistant to fire, and Fire Whirl does no more damage to the Acids/Alkalines and the R-Series than just regular ol' Cyclone, not to mention Marle has better speed and her bow has better attack power.
Anyways, feel free to watch over the run, burn me twice as bad as you guys did on the previous version with your comments, and so on. My next release will likely be all the way up to the entrance of Magus's Castle, which also happens to be the place where the run should really start to get interesting.
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I have developed a newfound hatred of the bike race.
As annoying as it was to just win the blasted thing every time I play it on the console, trying to win it perfectly without being able to rotate the camera about has finally managed to break my patience.. I've burnt way too much time and way too many rerecords, and I've still have yet to make it halfway across the track before Johnny manages to pass me up.
Like with perfecting boss strategy, I'm going to put off perfecting the bike race until the final version.
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The first time around, you can't move the camera around, unfortunately. However, when you rerace (I think you need the race log, too), you can choose to run without boosts, and only then are you able to rotate the camera.
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No, you can't alter your speed, but it really won't matter much anyways.. what I was asking for is the world record score, not time.
The bike race works like this: As long as you're ahead of Johnny, you gain points. When you fall behind, you lose points. Every time you go ahead/fall behind, after a second or so you both catch up to each other. So, to get a perfect score, you need to jump out ahead of Johnny immediately and then steer the bike so that he continuously bumps into you from behind when he attempts to catch up with you, keeping you ahead and continuing to build up your score.
What I don't remember, though, is if being farther ahead causes your points to rise faster than normal, which will determine if I use up the other two boosts or not. But I guess that's going to wait until I get that far (which won't be very long now).
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Bit of a short update.. I'm all the way to the Arris Dome in 2300 AD (in other words, not too far from the End of Time), and up to 35 minutes of gameplay. I can probably shave off a good 45 seconds to a minute off the current version of the movie with some optimizations, but I'm not going to stress myself over it yet, since this is just a test movie.
The Trial and the escape from jail went by alot faster than I expected, and so did most of Lab 16 (though there are a couple enemies at the end I do wind up having to fight), and now I'm pretty well prepared to fight the Guardian.
By the way, does anyone know what the current world record is for the bike race? I'm going to attempt to beat it..
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Been a little busy, so progress has been slow, but I think I've found a way to manipulate luck. Haven't tested it extensively to make sure I can use it whenever, and I'll need to make sure I know exactly how it works, but if it works the way I think it does I think I can cut the time on the first section of the game down to under 16 minutes.
Otherwise, it's mostly been finding ways to optimize my current strategy and planning out my strategy for the next section of the game.. I think I'll put out another test movie once I reach the End of Time.
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Okay, I'm just about back to where I was before on my rerecord attempt - just have to beat Yakra again and I'm back to where I was.
Frame advance seems to be having its' ups and downs - dialogue seems to be going by much more smoothly, and I'm finally starting to get a grip on the status menus, but the battle menus are just so random with when they accept input that I'm frantically pulling my hair out to get results that are, at best, on par with the results I got with just slow motion and the turbo buttons.
I'm fairly convinced now that it's nearly impossible to manipulate luck when it comes to critical hits/other battle factors in this game.. I already knew it's not based on time, but now I'm even certain getting chests and talking to a different number/different order of NPCs doesn't affect it either. I've adjusted my strategy enough such that by some of Sampyla's comments the timing of critical hits should be different, but despite all the changes I've made to the run I'm still able to go through the game with all my critical hits coming at the exact same time. It looks like all the manipulation I'll be able to do is use them when the numbers fall my way..
I'm not sure how much time, if any, I've saved with the minor optimizations to strategy I've made here and there yet, but I'm guessing that so far I've chopped off a good 30 seconds from my time. I'm hoping I can cut off some more time from the Yakra battle, as well..
Now, looking slightly ahead to the next portion of the game, I've got a bit of a dilemma - which would you guys rather see me do during the trial, wait the three days out and then go straight to the boss, or break my way out?
Despite having to wait so long through the three days and the lengthy cutscene, waiting it out will put no battles between me and the Dragon Tank, allow me to automatically skip through almost all of the prison tower, and is almost certainly faster - maybe even by a full minute. But, that'll be pretty derned boring, and who wants to see that?
On the other hand, breaking out the hard way is much more entertaining, with plenty of things to do on the way, but there will be (I believe) three battles I'll have to go through before I reach the Dragon Tank, and I'll have to run through the entire dungeon, and it'll likely be much slower than waiting it out.
Basically, it's a choice of speed vs entertainment, and since alot of the runs here aim for speed above all, it's a bit difficult to choose.
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I'm pretty certain Vanish/Doom (and any variant on it) works on everything but both Guardians, the three Statues, and anything in the final battle. This includes battles you normally can't "win" (such as against Chupon in the Airship going toward the Floating Continent).
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Okay, I've watched through Bisqwit's SMV, and I understand what he's trying to get at now. It's true, I never noticed about half the things he mentioned/used in his video.. all the little nuances I wind up finding in RPGs are usually battle related. So, when I prepared for this run, I thought about it from a battle standpoint, and guess I haven't paid enough attention to other little glitches and fun things you can do outside of battle.. I suppose I'll be relying on you guys to point out these sorts of things.
I am thoroughly jealous at the speed which you sped through the menus.. still not quite sure how you did it. I guess it's time to assign some more turbo buttons to my keyboard..
However, I did find the "walking back before area transitions" thing to be fairly annoying, and probably won't do so once I rerecord this run after the first couple of instances, only enough just to show it can be done.
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Joined: 9/24/2004
Posts: 177
Okay, let's see here.. I tried downloading your movie, but got a 404, so no, I didn't see any of your tricks.
Besides that, here's my explanation for what happened in the movie:
Name entry dialog screens: I tried getting past Crono's as quickly as possible, but really couldn't do any better than that. I've got no excuse for Lucca's, however, and I did manage to bypass Marle's and Frog's later on. As I mentioned, I'm likely going to rerecord this part to fix some of the bumblings in my menu selection, like with that and the slight waste of time during selecting enemies on the first battle after getting Lucca.
Getting access to Lucca's show faster: There's no quicker way of getting access to it.. you've gotta go down to the next screen and go to the nearest booth to get access to it, and the shop's the closest one there. Then again, maybe talking to one of the girls in the center square is a few frames quicker..
Teleport test: I could've SWORN that if you tried talking to Marle before you go through the teleport test first, she just comments about waiting for you and then waits until you go do it first. Guess I'm wrong, or maybe the Japanese version is different..
Pin picking event: Are you sure? I ran over to the area where the pin was as fast as possible.
Moving around during telepod scene or Knight Captain speech: Again, I've got no excuse.
Turning back when the screen begins to change: Huh? Are you talking about when Marle is about to be ripped apart? If so, then I guess I've got no excuse.
Having Marle walk through Crono before she disappears: Again, are you sure this is doable? I remember the controller being locked during this part..
Not opening the box in Queen Leene's room: I went after the chest with the Ether in it in Yakra's lair because there was also a chest with a bit of good armor for Lucca, which I'll be using later on in the battle against the Dragon Tank. However, on a rerecord attempt I might try to fit in a way to use one less Cyclone somewhere so I won't even have to use an Ether at all..
Not picking up Shelters or the Tabs in the forest: I didn't need the Shelters right now, and I plan on buying more in bulk later on in the game when I do need them. As for the Power Tab, that's very much out of the way and the +1 strength bonus is not at all worth it. (I probably won't get any Tabs unless they're fairly close to the route I'm taking)
Frog getting critical hits alot: That's just the way the numbers fell into place!
Anyways, this was mostly a test movie, to see if I've got the hang of timeattacking down, and to see if there's anything in general I should improve on.. guess I've still got a lot of work to do.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Former player
Joined: 9/24/2004
Posts: 177
I have come bearing news of progress!
I just got done with a short movie from the beginning of the game until the end of the fight against Yakra, which can be downloaded here. (Yay for ancient webspace I forgot I had!)
Surprisingly enough, the movie does a very good job of camouflaging the sheer torture I had with trying to navigate through the game's menus, especially early on.. I think I've spent a good half of my rerecords so far trying to get through them quickly. I've gotten a bit better at speeding through the game's text and its' menus later on, but I can't say I'm all too happy with how fast I got through the menus, and might rerecord the run from scratch before I go on.
Anyways, a couple notes about the run:
- Like with Bisqwit, I'm using the Japanese version of the game to perform the timeattack. The text does go by significantly faster in the Japanese version, so I think that'll be a major timesaver right there.
- I'm not manipulating luck to attempt to control when I get critical hits with attacks, as Sampyla seemed to have been doing with his run, but I did attempt to use critical hits when they did pop up. Not sure if that's considered luck manipulation or not, though..
- Yeah, I did decide to go ahead and get Lucca's Flame Toss before going on to raid the Cathedral. I overestimated how many battles in the forest it would take to get Flame Toss/Fire Whirl (2), and greatly overestimated how much damage I do to the Naga-ettes and other monsters in the Cathedral with regular weapons.. needless to say, I think I saved a good minute or two on the first battle alone by taking this route.
- As for the amount of hesitation in parts of the battle against Yakra, I attempted to dance around his attack script to try to avoid his counterattacks - there are small windows here and there which you can attack in and not face one of Yakra's painful counterattacks, in addition to being very close to Yakra. Not sure if I managed to hit all those windows or not, but thankfully I only had to heal twice the entire battle, and it made me look like I knew what I was doing when I spent a couple frames picking up that Revive XD
Anyways, if there's anything you might like to see an improvement on should I decide to rerecord this section of the movie, fire away.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Former player
Joined: 9/24/2004
Posts: 177
I've been thinking about this, and if nobody else wants to attempt this run, then I will.
I've played through Chrono Trigger about 345354354353543543 times, essentially know the entire game like the back of my hand (yes, even more so than FF4 or FF5), and have successfully pulled off a low level trip through the game - enough to know that there's only two places that it's absolutely required to level - right before Magus and right before Lavos.
But then again, since this is a timeattack, I think it's possible to pull enough strings to eliminate one of them. XD
I think this run is going to be a bit easier to pull off than a FF6 run, and will probably require a fairly low number of rerecords, since I'm probably going to rely on techs alot for the fights I do have to go through (besides, if CT is anything like FF6, it's probably going to be unrealistically difficult to try to manipulate your attacks to critical on every regular attack).
On the other hand, though, there may be a few times here and there where I might selectively level to pick up a tech or two which will allow me to zip through required fights faster than without them.
There are a few things I'm having trouble planning out when I initially thought out my strategy for such a timeattack (which differ from the strategy I took during my low level game attempt.. There's much more than this, this is just what came out off the top of my head):
- When raiding the cathedral to fight Yakra, should I take the time while heading down from Guardia Forest after picking up Lucca to obtain Fire Whirl with the both of them, or just run right through without stopping? The monsters in the Cathedral are very weak to Fire, and I remember the two fights you must fight through before reaching Yakra take a VERY long time if you don't have Fire Whirl.. but I'm not sure how much time I'll save (if any) if I slow down to fight battles on the way out of Guardia Forest.
- Vs. the Guardian: Man, I hate thinking about this fight.. There's three ways to fight this thing, and none of them are too appealing at low levels for timeattacks - the first, concentrating on the Guardian and ignoring the Bits - causes the Bits to counter every attack against the Guardian with a Delta Attack which does massive damage to the entire party - and if it doesn't wipe you out right there, the amount of time spent healing yourself so you can attack again more than offsets the amount of time saved by not attacking the Bits, so that's out. That leaves two methods - killing one bit, leaving the other alive and then attacking the Guardian (still causing the remaining Bit to counterattack whenever the Guardian's attacked, but only with AmpliFire which is quickly and easily cured off.. but both the counterattack and the curing wastes time), or do it the "proper" way and kill both Bits before assaulting the Guardian (this starts the Guardian on a 5-count during which you can beat up on the Guardian without outside interference, but after the count finishes it revives BOTH bits, so you must kill them again). Not sure which option takes less time to do, and not sure if the ability to influence critical hits affects the choice).
- And, of course, the time and place and method of fighting Lavos. Yes, the first Lavos instantly opens with a attack which does massive damage - but the first form can be avoided entirely by taking the Epoch after it gets its' wings to 1999 AD and crashing it into Lavos's head. However, the second form of Lavos also instantly opens with an attack which does even MORE damage. It's impossible to pull off Lifeline quick enough to be able to live through either attack, due to Lavos's speed. I only have a couple choices around this - either buff myself up to level 40 or so to be able to survive both attacks (by that time, I won't actually be that far away from lv40, so I can just take a few trips through the Geno Dome conveyor belt to level myself that high.. but who wants to see that!?), or revive Crono and go through the Fiona's Forest subquest in order to obtain the GreenDream (which has the same effect), then bringing the Crono/Marle/Robo team in order to be able to have one character live through the opening attack, revive the others, then pull off Lifeline to survive any further instant death attacks while I kill the second form (There's no way I'll be able to kill it before it performs the attack again). Unfortunately going through both subquests takes a LOT of time, not to mention I'll have to have Marle pretty buff in order to use Life2 and thus Lifeline, so I'm not so certain going down this avenue will really help out any, or is even possible before I'm able to use the first option anyways.
By the way, I'll be happy to accept any notes (PM them over the board to me, I don't give out my email address for privacy reasons), or other hints you've got about game strategy that haven't been brought up already.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Former player
Joined: 9/24/2004
Posts: 177
And, unfortunately, it seems this movie has been brutally shot down, at least for now.
While attempting to make a test movie out of the first level of one of the games (mostly to get a feel for snes9x's gameplay/movie manipulation controls), I attempted to play it back.. and got nothing. Seems snes9x doesn't record Super Scope input into its' movies.
Oh well, I guess I can only wait now and hope that the new version of snes9x includes Super Scope input during movie recording..
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Former player
Joined: 9/24/2004
Posts: 177
Having recently rediscovered this game (and bringing up (not so) fond memories of that hideously clunky bazooka controller and how fiendishly hard some of these games can get), I'm wondering if there's anyone else out there that would like to see one or more of the 6 games get ripped to shreds. XD
Also, I'm wondering if there's any one particular game you'd like to see me tackle (except for Blastris A/B, as they're just slow and boring to watch), feel free to fire away.
And, of course, if there's any interesting glitches in any of these games (unlikely as this may be), be sure to bring those up as well.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Former player
Joined: 9/24/2004
Posts: 177
Well, if you're interested in doing a speedrun, rerecorded or not, might as well help you get things started!
Here's what my plan for the first hour or so of the game was:
- While in the pirates' cave, fight a group of Steel Bats, giving you 9 EXP (this is almost always the first battle you fight once you enter the cave)
- After you get Faris and the ship, go straight to the Wind Shrine. On F4, pick up the sword in the chest and equip it on Galuf - this allows you to kill the first boss before it hides behind its' wings.
- After you get your first set of jobs, immediately switch to Blue Mage x3/Thief, and let anyone but Faris be the thief. Head to Tule Village and fight the monster-in-a-box in the chest in the Beginner's House (1x Goblin), learn Goblin Punch, then kill it to level up to 2/2/2/3. Afterwards, buy Fire, Ice, and Bolt at the Magic Shop, switch to Black Mage x3/Thief (this time, let Faris be the thief) then go on.
- The next boss, Karlabos, dies to 6 shots of Bolt.
- Anytime before the next story event on the Ship Graveyard, switch to Blue Mage x3/Thief (you'll get event-based healing mid-way through the ship graveyard). Start bombarding the next boss, Siren, with Goblin Punches (this ability does massive damage if the caster's level equals the target's). Immediately afterward, switch to Black Mage x3/Thief.
- While heading toward Carwen Village or the North Mountain, fight a pair of Tatus (they're weak vs Ice) to level up to 3/3/3/4.
- Go to Carwen Village and pick up the Ice Rod there (it's hidden under an underpass around the middle of town), then break it on the boss, Magisa, to kill her in one hit, and win a Whip.
- Follow the story to Worus Tower. Right before the next boss (Galura), change to Blue Mage x3/Classless (let Faris be Classless), and equip the Whip on Faris. Now, let Faris keep Galura paralyzed while the rest of them beat up Galura with Goblin Punches (Galura is level 3). Afterward, switch to Black Mage x3/Thief.
- While heading toward Karnak, fight any Wild Nacks you come across (they're weak vs Fire) - they're very good EXP and the absolute best source of money in world 1, period. Build yourself up to level 8 or 9 or so (I haven't precisely calculated out the number of battles you should fight, sorry), then once you're finished head into Karnak itself. Buy one Ice Rod for cheap, then come back to buy five more (you should have plenty enough money to do so, if not, come back to buy the rest after Karnak Castle blows up).
- Go through the Steamship and kill the next boss, Liquidflame, by breaking an Ice Rod, attacking, then breaking one more Ice Rod. (I'm not certain if you can manipulate its' forms to be able to break two rods in a row without the second doing no damage, but I've never been able to do it in normal play).
- Change to Blue Mage x3/Thief, and escape from Karnak. Kill the next boss, Iron Claw, by breaking a rod, waiting for it to change, letting it use Death Claw (this is a very important spell), then breaking one more rod to kill it. Hopefully you'll be able to align the battles you fought on your way to Karnak such that when you win, you'll reach 9/9/9/10 or 10/10/10/11 or something similar).
- Afterward, go to the Ancient Library, and sometime there, learn Lv5 Death from a Page 64 there (preferrably during a Page 32/Page 64 battle). Then, kill Ifrit by breaking two more rods, then kill the next boss, Biblos, by using Death Claw then attacking.
Afterwards, I haven't done any real in-depth planning, but it shouldn't be too much harder to speed through the rest of the game. I wouldn't be surprised if a 5 hour run of it is possible. There's a way to kill every boss in the game in some incredibly fast way - most of them are in the boss battling guides or the low level challenge guides on GameFAQs.