Posts for ais523


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boct1584 wrote:
VVVVVV runs that make use of "Press R to die" bother me, and I'm not quite sure why. The availability of that function in the main game is an oversight; it was only meant to be used in player-made levels, and it was fixed in v2.1. On the other hand, we have plenty of runs that use older ROM/ISO revisions that have more glitches/oversights in them, and most of those don't bother me. I'd liken "Press R to die" to something like the GT Code; in a normal speedrun/TAS, it should be off-limits, but if you're doing arbitrary code execution, THEN it's okay.
It's worth mentioning that the use of R to die was mentioned to the author of the game on a Skype call live at AGDQ this year. Apparently, he's glad it's in the game because it leads to such interesting speeduns (and 2.0 is the current version; AFAIK, 2.1 was never released). I'm not sure if that has an effect on your opinion or not.
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DeHackEd wrote:
Rubber banding might not quite qualify for what this thread is intended for, but if we're on the subject I remember a variation. This is all from memory. There's a realistic racing game video I saw on youtube where everyone was driving crappy little cars (I want to say Fiat 500) and when they got to this steep hill nobody was able to actually climb it. The player started weaving back and forth in order to effectively reduce the slope and made slow forward progress. Suddenly the AI cars from behind were able to climb up the hill straight up. :/ Rubber banding blatantly giving the CPU better engines when they need it.
The most blatant example of rubber-banding I know in racing games is F-Zero: GP Legend (for the GBA). Apart from your vehicle and the three nearest vehicles (if they're nearby), enemies don't have their positions calculated at all; the game simply records them as "5 positions behind you" or "2 positions ahead of you" or whatever. Even more so than normal rubber-banding, this definitely counts as cheating, in that you can skip forwards an entire lap via glitches and you will only ever gain 3 places. It also leads to absurd situations; for instance, you can watch all 29 opponents cross the finish line, then race backwards round the track for many laps, then race forwards again, overtake them all, and finish in first.
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What about using two similar-but-different versions of the same game? Different languages, for instance, or even different versions. (What about a 100% of an early version of a game, at the same time as an any% of a later version of the same game that has some critical glitches fixed?)
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Weatherton wrote:
Graviton wrote:
Neutral reset/Speed multipliers Resetting the control stick neutral to "down" means that when the stick is at rest, the game thinks you are holding up. When you then hold up on the stick, the game reads this as "even more up" and you move significantly faster. Also, the use of toggle strafe in conjunction with running at an angle (strafe-running) to increase speed is lacking in this TAS. I would estimate that upwards of five minutes, if not more, are lost by not using both of these tricks to their fullest extent.
This trick would have no impact on a TAS as we already have full access to all possible control stick positions without having to reset neutral position.
I came here to post this. Assuming that a TAS input plugin is used rather than an actual physical controller, N64 and GameCube emulators assume that a player is doing neutral resets every frame, where necessary, thus giving access to the entire range of possible controller inputs. The reset thus isn't visible in the input file, but it is conceptually happening.
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If the opening cutscene would otherwise happen on a later cycle, you aren't wasting time by getting it out of the way in cycle 1; although you might finish cycle 1 earlier due to not pushing back the frame rule, you make that time up later. Also, I'm really looking forward to a wrong-soar route, and hope it's faster than the current routes. Sadly, I don't know enough about Majora's Mask to contribute, so the best I can do is just read.
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Which Missingno. you get is not very RNG-dependent; if you're getting it via the Cinnabar Island method, it depends on the character's name (with the RNG only used to decide which letters from the name matter). Basically, all the Missingno.s are different Pokémon internally in index number terms (and thus separate species for most purposes), they just happen to have incredibly similar stats.
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OK, so I'm one of the few people who wasn't entertained, and I voted No. (Just finished watching it.) If this were the fastest way to complete the game, I'd be interested just on that metric. This run, however, doesn't complete the game, because it uses a cheat code. (IIRC last time this came up, someone looked into the code, and confirmed that it looked entirely intentional.) I don't believe there's a difference between cheat and debug codes; they're basically the same thing, given that the purpose of most cheat codes is for testing the game, and then those codes are left in the game for players to discover. The code in Super Metroid wasn't discovered for ages, but the same is true of many other cheat codes in games, too. (WRT the comparisons with Earthbound, IMO this is worse than Earthbound. Using memory corruption to access a debug feature is different from just using the debug feature outright. To give a parallel with NetHack, the game I'm most experienced with: in NetHack, you can't complete the game in debug mode; I'd consider it legitimate to use memory corruption to access debug mode, use it to teleport to the end of the game, then to turn it back off and win, but not to start the game in debug mode and then use total control to turn it off before ending the game. The difference is that in one version, you're using controls that aren't part of the game; in the other, you're using control that are part of the game to access some pre-existing code that happens to do what you want.) Total control is something I find interesting. Using a cheat code along the way to gaining it, though, is less interesting; I know that when I develop games, I care less about making debug features stable/reliable than the game itself. (NetHack even has a debug feature to crash the game, for instance, and it's easy to cause internally inconsistent states using it.) In this case, though, the cheat code isn't connected to the total control, which means that there's an easy way to "fix" the total control in this case; simply don't use the cheat code, instead gathering the required components manually. As for the run up to that point, it defeats everything I find interesting about Super Metroid. It reminds me most of the RBO run (you're trying to reach Lower Norfair first), but it doesn't have the routing challenges of RBO, because it's using a glitch to substitute for the energy tanks. Instead, what does it do? It gets the Super Missiles that most categories get, the Power Bombs that most categories get, and about the only thing nonstandard about the route (apart from going to Lower Norfair first, and even that's done along what IIRC is a relatively common route for reaching Lower Norfair) is that skips the Charge Beam (and it only gets to do that because of the cheat code; the Charge Beam is an item that is required to perform the total control glitch). The pause glitch and the total control itself are the only things I see in the run that are different from the other categories. (Also, the duplicating of Super Missiles with the Space-Time Beam is amusing, but disappointing in that it means that the route doesn't have to go find Super Missile packs that might be different from the usual ones.) This disappoints me so much compared to how a total control run that didn't use the cheat code. Total control is a worthy goal in any game, IMO, even if it's slower than a glitched-any% or even no-large-skips any% completion (although in this case, I think it's uncontroversially faster than no-large-skips). The route would IMO be rather more interesting than this one, too; given that the Space-Time beam allows duplication of pickups, the category for the non-glitched part of the run is "obtain the Charge, Ice, and Plasma Beams, and the Spazer, as quickly as possible", and those are scattered to diverse corners of the map. Aiming to get some items, while not caring about others, is often interesting in games (see Metroid Prime 2 low%, for instance). I'm not an expert on Super Metroid, but I did look up a guide someone else has written about how to get certain items as early as possible without regards for others, and it contains interesting advice along the lines of "getting the Ice Beam after the Super Missiles is possible, but very tight on energy". In fact, quite possibly such a run would use both the pause glitch (if it turns out to be the fastest way to get an early Ice Beam), and the X-Ray glitch (if that turns out to be the fastest way to get the Plasma Beam). Pretty much the main issue is just to do with whether the Plasma Beam is so far away that the run would end up too close to standard as a result (The guides I'm reading say that it requires defeating Draygon but not Phantoon, which would be interesting, but it'd be disappointing if it turns out to be nonetheless faster to get the Gravity Suit like normal. l'm optimistic, though, because Phantoon is such a long boss.) So in other words: this run is too similar to the standard runs for me to start with, then it uses a new glitch which is interesting but outstays its welcome a bit and makes the routing less interesting, then it cheats (meaning it doesn't even complete the game), and then it gets total control. This is so disappointing when it could have been so much more.
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The problem is that the load times on the emulator don't match the load times on the console, which is a big problem because the doors don't act like they do in the actual game.
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Patashu wrote:
TAS cheating Sokoban hype :D
I think this solution works! Livestreaming it right now over on termcast (telnet termcast.org). EDIT: Gah. First I thought we'd have to backtrack out of Sokoban, so I created a solution that got us back to the door. Then I thought we wouldn't, so I made an alternative solution, also adding in jumping (which I forgot the first time). Then it turns out we can't leave except via the front entrance anyway, so backtracking it is. Time to combine the two solutions… EDIT 2: Here's the map after the obvious initial moves:
                                ------  -----
                                |....|  |%..|
                                |.0..----.0.|
                                |.0.........|
                                |..--->---H%|
                                |---------.---
                                |..^/^<|....=|
                                |..----|0..%.|
                                --^|   |.0...|
                                 |^-----.0...|
                                 |..^^^^0.0..|
                                 |??----------
                                 ----
We're the H. We need to pick up the = and both ?, then return to the >; the ^ block our path unless we push or teleport a 0 onto them. One of the 0 is in place for pushing already; for the other three, we use teleports. We can jump up to three squares orthogonally, or two in any direction. The / is an irrelevant wand of undead turning (0:4) (somebody's bound to ask). The first teleport needs a seed of 104137 to succeed (or many other odd numbers around there; there's massive jitter), and I don't think it matters which boulder we teleport. The other two teleports are somewhat over 700 seeds after that, and a little over 500 seeds after that, with the exact details depending on our actions (but those values are close enough to quickly find them by hand). EDIT 3: Turns out the second solution is the fastest anyway. Due to the awkward jump distances we end up with, it's best to pick up the ring on the way there anyway, and just backtrack back in a comparatively boring manner. EDIT 4: I declare the raid on Sokoban complete! Our earnings: two scrolls of earth, a ring of conflict, and something like 120 rocks. Not sure where to go next. (Also, we have our luck at its lower cap of -7 right now due to all the cheating; we might need to go fix that. Luckily, fixing luck issues is not hard. There may be something we can do with the negative luck before it's fixed, though.) Also considered: punishment dragging, but it's slower than jumping except when in a 3-actions-per-turn polyform, so I discarded the idea.
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I think we've tentatively decided to continue onwards rather than redo an earlier section; it's sloppy, which disappoints me, but redoing it would be a lot of work and the time lost just runs up against a framerule anyway. We've made some progress (not yet documented); we grabbed a couple of wands of wishing from a shop (confusing the shopkeeper into letting us have them for free, no "theft" involved), and are moving on to boulder collection. We're planning to do the first level of Sokoban halfway for the scrolls of earth, and to give people some idea of what it looks like under TAS conditions but leaving before it overstays its welcome. The project was stalled on me writing a Sokoban solver that could handle all the methods of cheating that a TAS has available, but I was thinking about the problem a while ago, and think it may be possible to come up with an optimal strategy by hand, proving it's optimal rather than needing a computer search. I just need to stare at the map a bit in order to make sure it works (going off to do that now), and get some implausible levels of luck, but it's a TAS, you can always expect those :-)
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Mastania wrote:
ais523 wrote:
What's the formula for the basic physical attack (i.e. not a move)? Is that the same, or different?
IIRC it's always 0.5x effectiveness, like a strong resistance.
Thanks; that definitely fits in with my personal observations (against a ghost, a basic attack and Normal-type move tend to do comparable damage).
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Patashu wrote:
I think what we REALLY need to do is, as a community, come up with a term that unambiguously means 'You can do small, localized, well defined in scope memory corruption glitches (putting a chuck in your power up, trainer fly, things like that) but you can't do large scale, global, arbitrarily wide scope memory corruption glitches (anything that reads to or writes from many unrelated fields, especially in an arbitrary or many-at-once manner)' so we can concisely describe categories better. It might need to be a new piece of jargon, which is OK if the whole community can agree on what it should be. But I'm kind of tired of the war between 'overly precise, cold and technical descriptions' and 'easier to understand, but not considered technically precise enough' category labels and I wish it would go away with a nice solution.
SDA uses "no large skips", and IIRC they have a larger community than us, so they probably win this one by default. (I'm fine with the name, too.) That's mostly to do with what the effect of the glitch is, though, rather than the way it's set up.
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Is it faster to enter Tourian backwards even when not using the GT code? Or is the X-Ray scope method still faster? And yes, the GT code is pretty clearly a cheat code; it's in a location where a cheat code would be helpful for playtesting, the trigger is a cheat-code-like trigger, and people who have looked at the source say it looks like it was intentionally programmed in.
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What's the formula for the basic physical attack (i.e. not a move)? Is that the same, or different? Also, I agree that there's something weird going on with stat stages, but I'm not sure what.
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Chamale wrote:
On another note, I just found an intriguing youtube video showing a method of performing Trainer-Fly in Viridian Forest. This could catch a Nidoking very early in the game, but it's agonizingly slow to perform the glitch. I'm not sure what the fastest route is to exploit this, but it's intriguing. Route 2 has plenty of Pokémon to give us Nidoking. The correct route might involve losing fights early on rather than winning - does anyone have an accurate damage calculator for Generation 1? I'm exploring a lot of different routes because I'd like to make an improvement to Primo's no-glitch-warps run if there's a significant route change to be made. I wouldn't be interested in, as you said, splicing the second half of his run onto the first half of the glitched warps run.
I've actually done this specific glitch on console, and used it to get a level 100 Gengar (off Blue's second Pokémon; I forget what it is offhand). It did feel slightly different from a normal Trainer-Fly in the way it works; it was ages ago so I don't remember the details, but I think the text boxes were different, at least. It's kind-of slow, but may be faster than the Trainer-Fly in Mt. Moon. Also it takes hundreds of tries to get on console, but that obviously isn't an issue for a TAS.
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The damage formula in Pokémon Mystery Dungeon is different to the damage formula in regular Pokémon. I don't know what it is (finding out might be nice), but one effect is that both base power, and the special/physical split, have much smaller effects than in the main series games. (Also, the effect of defence stages appears to be to subtract from damage; after a few defence stages, everything is doing 1 damage, rather than varying amounts. The defence stat might, or might not, work similarly. I haven't tested special defence but would be very surprised if it were different.)
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I'm more of the opinion that the goal of a TAS is entertainment, and just because there's a frame rule coming up isn't an excuse for looking sloppy. (And indeed, I think it's unlikely that anyone else will take up TASing this game, although I'd enjoy it if omeone did.) I guess the real question is to do with how much needs to be redone, which is unclear. NetHack's sync-stable enough that bits of existing input sync. If we have to redo the entire Castle, it probably isn't worth it. If that syncs, redoing gold duplication wouldn't be so bad.
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The [submission] tag gives the wrong time for infinitely long submissions: [submission]3912[/submission] gives #3912: adelikat's FDS Super Mario Bros. 2 in 115:17:46:40.00. (Expected behaviour is for the time to be listed as "∞".)
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Mr. Pwnage wrote:
For shop stealing--don't you have at least 433 rocks by now? It would be a lot of typing, but this sounds like a great opportunity to show off that particular exploit.
I don't think there's any way that exploit can be made to be entertaining. It also takes a noticeable amount of gametime as well as realtime; you can only fit 52 items in open inventory, and you can't rename items that aren't in open inventory, so you waste a bunch of time moving items around.
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I think our quest for "which item to generate" has been solved; looking at the TAS progress so far, I see that dwangoAC has generated a D:7 which has a shop selling two wands of wishing. Not sure we're going to manage much better than that. (So much for my idea of generating one in Sokoban, although I guess we can do that too.) This gives us 2 wishes remaining from our existing wand, a total of 12 from the two in the shop = 14, and we could get up to another 14 from a wand of wishing in Sokoban (trivially easy to manipulate compared to some of the things we've been doing) and a hitherto unrevealed wish source. I'm wondering if having this many wishes might make things a bit repetitive, actually. We should probably use this D:7 as a strong demonstration of what a TAS can do, even if the wishes subsequently end up irrelevant and we ascend with the wands unused. It's not like there are even 28 non-randomly-generating items we need. EDIT: We could wish for cursed teleport, I guess; we always seem to need more of that, and although it generates randomly, you don't get very good value because the main method to force items to generate randomly is cursed teleport… Incidentally, I'm wondering about creative ways to extract them from the shop. Grab and teleport works, but some way to keep the shopkeeper happy would be more fun. The standard "wish for gold" trick doesn't work because of the antigold we're using for carry capacity, but it's been established that dropping antigold in shops does weird things, so we may be able to overflow the debt counter and get the items for free that way. This is all moot if the seed turns out to require too much manipulation to hit, of course. In other news, I've been looking into the leash situation. The conclusion: we left two leashes on the ground earlier that we need, and we could pick both of them up and yet still save three turns, due to a massive oversight in that section of the run (turns out polyform speed affects spellbook reading, something that I really should have checked rather than relying on an imperfect memory of the code). The problem is that that's about halfway through the TAS, and it makes the monster AI desync. I'd love to go back and fix it, but resyncing the rest of the TAS is going to be very difficult, if not impossible, meaning we might have to redo half of the TAS again. We can, however, line up level generation and most things like that reasonably accurately; it's just the monster AI that desyncs pretty much irretrivably. Thus, particularly lucky turns that we got before are still obtainable and won't have to be manipulated. I'm genuinely unsure on whether to redo from halfway through the TAS or not. It looks sloppy, and it is sloppy, so I don't really want it in the run, but it might be a lot of effort to get everything lining up like it should. I guess one option is to see whether we can get the gold duplication section to sync again via moving random seeds around (without changing our movement pattern); if we can keep the same movement pattern, everything should start syncing again after a while.
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The Sanctum has no from-above teleport region. Not only have we tested those turns explicitly to ensure it works (it does), but this strategy is routinely tried realtime (via using a large stack of c?oT and repeatedly teleporting between the Sanctum and VS levels until the teleport arrives inside the inner Sanctum; it's actually pretty likely, because it's open space and most of that level is packed with monsters). We actually made some progress on the run yesterday. No turn played, although we rejected a range of RNG seeds for the next move. We calculated the efficiency of the egg conversion engine to calculate how many scrolls of earth we needed. If the answer was along the lines of "50", we'd have gone and raided a scroll shop, but it turns out that we only need 3 or 4, so we're going to raid Sokoban:6 instead, which has two guaranteed scrolls of Earth, loads of boulders, and one guaranteed wand (having a guaranteed wand on a level, when normally they're rare, means that we get a very good opportunity to manipulate a wand of wishing, which is good because our current wand has only the one charge left). Now, Sokoban:6 is pretty much decided as our next destination, but the problem is that we have to go via the currently non-generated level Dungeons:7, and what's holding us up at the moment is to find something interesting to do when generating it. We were considering generating 7 candles naturally, but it's unclear how exactly to manipulate that, at the moment. If anyone has good ideas for something to do with the level (ideally in terms of speed rather than entertainment), let us know. They can't be too unlikely; about a 1 in 2000 chance is viable, anything less likely should be avoided. turnbyturn.txt is a little behind the actual run atm, but I hope to update it some time in the next few days. One other problem we've run into: the current WIP ignores two leashes on dungeon level 16, when we should have picked them up last time we were there. We may well be returning to the level anyway later on (it's designed to have a convenient RNG environment), but it seems very sloppy to just leave items on the ground that we later need; it shows a lack of planning. I'm going to review the run to see how close to them we came; it may well be that it's faster to collect them on a separate trip anyway, in which case we have an argument for avoiding them last time. (It's not like any particular location on D:16 is better than any other for RNG purposes.)
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I haven't tried to TAS this game, so I don't know for sure, but I've heard that this is a game where "the RNG hates you" (i.e. there is no way to luck manipulate during a dungeon). If that's the case, manipulating attacks to miss may be difficult or impossible, which could be why people tend to give up on the game. (Also, I should mention that boss-disabling seeds exist; many status effects will prevent bosses attacking, which makes them much easier to beat.)
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Is this entertaining? Not really, and I voted no. Should this be published? Definitely.
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hegyak wrote:
Do I even want to know what you are doing? I haven't played enough Nethack to know if I should be scared for the game or not. Still, it's great seeing how broke things have been so far.
The game's badly bent but (at least in this category) not completely broken. Think of it as "almost everything makes sense in a twisted way" (apart from what we do with gold, that doesn't really), rather than "this run makes no sense at all". It could be done faster using total control, but we're categorizing that out (partly because it's a pain to optimize and we don't fully understand the setup, and partly because this run is more entertaining). For instance, we get mindbogglingly high stats, but none of the individual steps in that are nonsensical; we gain stats when we level up, lose them when we level down, and it's just that the amounts don't match. We do things completely out of the standard order, but there isn't a fixed order (and the game has code to account for the order in we actually do things; it's intended to be possible, even though it's bad strategy outside a speedrun). We always have appropriate magical abilities to hand without needing to carry around items with the purpose, but that's just the result of an ability that causes them to change at random combined with huge amounts of luck manipulation; nothing about that is impossible or even unintended, it's just very unlikely. We have perfect knowledge of items, enemies and the map, but a sufficiently lucky player could simply do that by guessing. So apart from the gold glitches, and the enexto glitch (which will come up heavily later on but hasn't been used in the run yet), there's nothing in the run that outright makes no sense. It's simply just using a route that can't be replicated on console because it requires far too much luck, and exploiting some interactions between mechanics that individually make sense.
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If the content of the previous playthrough doesn't matter at all, then I'd classify this as "unlocking an alternate game mode using a dirty save", which under my definition (which received widespread support when suggested) isn't a newgame+. So "replay mode" is probably a better category.