Editor, Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Player
(44)
Joined: 7/11/2010
Posts: 1022
I'd say beating Lance and beating Red are different categories, sort of like beating the Elite 4 versus beating the Elite 4 Round 2 in FireRed/LeafGreen.
Editor, Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Player
(44)
Joined: 7/11/2010
Posts: 1022
I'm disappointed that this isn't a bump to a years-old thread :( Someone go bump it in 2018.
And yes, if you have something new to say and there's an appropriate thread to say it in, the age of the thread doesn't matter. Multiple threads on the same topic just makes it harder to find information.
Editor, Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Player
(44)
Joined: 7/11/2010
Posts: 1022
Well, standard Round 2 strategy for non-TAS runs is to catch Zapdos and use that throughout the postgame; you don't use Blastoise during the second Elite 4 battle in a realtime run anyway, so that wouldn't be a reason not to use Clefairy.
However, I can believe that the TAS route might be different from the realtime route due to the ability to get better luck in the battles; it might be that the time cost to get Zapdos wouldn't be worth it in a TAS.
Editor, Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Player
(44)
Joined: 7/11/2010
Posts: 1022
I only TAS games where I have a license to do so (such as NetHack, which has a general license allowing anyone to use their code in that way). In general, DOS/Windows TASing is good for doing things legally, because you can normally just buy a copy of the game and then TAS that directly.
I think it's also legal to TAS if you dump your ROMs yourself (i.e. don't download them, get them directly from a copy of the game you own), but the equipment to do that is difficult.
Most games are probably going to remain forever unTASable for me, though, because I insist on doing things legally.
Editor, Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Player
(44)
Joined: 7/11/2010
Posts: 1022
Warp wrote:
A semi-universal rule of thumb could be that the game has been "completed" at the point where it starts its non-interactive ending routines (that ultimately lead to the ending of the final credits, or whatever the game uses to indicate that the game has completely ended.) So it shouldn't be hard to agree that the input can be ended at this moment at its latest. (Of course there are exceptions to this with some games.)
This is the rule that SDA uses (for games with no accurate in-game timer), and it works reasonably well there. Probably the most common case where it fails is when a game has playable credits, but it's not clear what a TAS should do in that situation anyway.
Editor, Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Player
(44)
Joined: 7/11/2010
Posts: 1022
Warp wrote:
ais523 wrote:
There's not a "reading more into the rule than there is"
From the about one thousand runs currently published, in how many would you estimate that this rule would affect their route (or anything for that matter)? One?
Yes, I think you are reading more to it than there really is.
Well if the timing rule doesn't affect the route, it doesn't really matter what you do; the run's basically the same anyway.
I think it affects many of the win-via-total-control TASes, but that's about it. (Do you aim for the start o the credits? Or the end of the credits? In the latter case, the fact that the game's been won is pretty much unobservable from the encode.)
Editor, Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Player
(44)
Joined: 7/11/2010
Posts: 1022
A* only works well if a) you know what the fastest form of movement is, b) that fastest movement is usually achievable.
The problem is that a) is often wrong due to glitches, and b) is often wrong due to frame rules (which completely kill the performance of the algorithm). I can imagine that there would be games where it would work, but those are probably rare.
(I actually have written a bot to play NetHack using A* in the space of goals in the game. It's slow going and doesn't work so amazingly well; it comes up with really insightful strategies sometimes (I once saw it kite an entire roomful of monsters in one of the most dangerous levels in the game via grouping them and then running slightly faster in them, in a wide circle so that they didn't gain advantages from turning corners), but its play is noticeably worse than a good human because it doesn't make assumptions (and thus ends up exploring in an excessively OCD manner).
Of course, my bot doesn't have the help of savestates, which makes things quite different; it has to dynamically reroute as it gains more information. But I think a savestate-using bot would have the same general issues.)
Editor, Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Player
(44)
Joined: 7/11/2010
Posts: 1022
Any timing method will dictate route, because if the timing methods aren't all equivalent (they aren't), it's going to be possible for one route to be faster on one method, and one route to be faster on another method. Just like input time favours routes which let you end input early, even if you have to go out of your way earlier to gain the ability to end input early, and encode/movie time favours routes that have a shorter end credits.
There's not a "reading more into the rule than there is"; there's just "comparing rules with each other". Some timing methods will encourage certain routes simply because those routes happen to be friendlier to the timing method. This isn't a deficiency of the methods; it's just a fact.
In order to determine which method is best, then, we look for what counterintuitive actions result from each of the possible timing methods. There are some no matter what you do.
Editor, Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Player
(44)
Joined: 7/11/2010
Posts: 1022
thelegendarymudkip wrote:
Pokemon Yellow (and presumably the rest of the mainstream first gen games): Use a glitch move thats name is TMXX. Some glitch moves crash the game (screen turns a lot of colours, and sound freezes too I think.) Not sure exactly which glitch pokemon has one of these but I think it's Q or 44HY. Been done in real time, but probably a much faster way than this, but I don't know of one.
The Pokémon Blue TAS currently on the workbench does this with the glitch move -- (except it sets up memory so that it jumps to memory rather than crashing; -- is known to cause crashes sometimes, but is less crashy than some of the others). That took nearly half an hour (it needed Mew for Transform, the fastest known way to get to a glitch move barring save corruption).
I know it's possible to get a softlock faster than that (do the Brock skip, then return to the area along the wrong line, and you'll be stuck in a cutscene indefinitely). I'm not sure what the soonest possible crash is, though.
These fastest-to-crash runs are probably quite important, though, for helping TASing; something that crashes the game but only sometimes can often be used to get total control (or warp to the credits).
Editor, Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Player
(44)
Joined: 7/11/2010
Posts: 1022
SmashManiac wrote:
The reason why I believe brute-forcing needs to be a requirement for gameplay time is because perfect knowledge of a game is impossible. Over the years it has been proven countless times to never believe anything at face value for speedruns. Say, for instance, who would have thought possible to beat Super Mario World in less than 2 minutes from power on? Assuming a movie is valid based on current knowledge goes against that principle. If you want accurate times, you need absolute requirements based on zero assumptions.
Let me explain with an extreme example. Let's say that TASVideos transitions to gameplay time. One day, somebody figures out a super obscure way to interrupt what everybody thought to be a non-interactive cutscene and render a publication invalid, and it will turn out that the previously-obsoleted movie was actually faster. Sure you can correct the mistake, but it will not change the fact that the published record was a complete lie all that time. This is an unacceptable scenario in my opinion.
This reminds me of when I played 4-dimensional noughts and crosses at school. One of the rules we added was (understandably) that you didn't win unless you pointed out you'd won. You could call the movie suboptimal on the basis of nobody specifying a way in which it was optimal.
I guess it's worth looking at what sort of game would cause pathological results with each of the definitions:
Gameplay time: A game where there are two routes, one of which takes longer to get to the final boss but which turns the final boss into a slow autoscroller that can be completed with no input (and cannot be completed faster no matter what), one of which gets there faster but has to actually fight the boss (thus requiring more input). (This situation is also pathological with input time, but it at least fits the spirit of movie time; the problem is that the autoscroller route is faster in gameplay time when the spirit of the rules indicate that it should be slower.)
As I noted earlier in the thread, games that work like this actually exist (e.g. Rosenkreuzstilette).
Input time: A game in which it's possible to set up the RNG so that the game completes itself, then wait many minutes for it to actually complete itself. (I remember an April Fools TAS that did this with half a sports game, but sadly input was needed to move from one half to the next.) I can't think of any situations where input time gives an unexpected result, but some of the expected results can be unwanted by many players.
Movie time: A game in which it's possible to waste time in order to get a shorter end credits. Offhand, I don't know of any games that actually work like this (anyone have examples), but it would give quite an unsatisfactory result if it did happen.
In general, I think I'm in favour of allowing the runner to choose which timing method is used, like we do at the moment. What makes the most sense can depend on the game, and input time can lead to interesting "concept" TASes in the cases where it makes a big difference. (I think that that April Fools TAS would have been published if it actually completed the entire game.)
Editor, Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Player
(44)
Joined: 7/11/2010
Posts: 1022
Would you be using Charmander up to that point, or does it lose too much time at Brock compared to Squirtle?
It's a pity you don't get an ability boost; I'm a little surprised that a Clefable does more damage than a Wartortle in Torrent. I guess one advantage is that you have a better STAB type.
Another thing I was wondering about is whether Return would be worth it as a main damage move (it's not very far out of the way, apparently in the guard house south of Lavender). Clefairy's base happiness is 140, giving a base power of 56 just starting out, and it will only go up as the game goes on (going up by 1 base power every 640 steps on average and approximately 1 on every level gain), given that the Clefable is in your team all the time. The question would be as to whether you'd have built up 24 base power boosts by the time you reached Lavender Town (you can pick them up in advance); I can certainly believe you could, though. (Also, it has 20 PP, the same as Mega Punch, so you could just learn one over the other as a PP refresh and get the base power upgrade at the same time.)
Editor, Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Player
(44)
Joined: 7/11/2010
Posts: 1022
hegyak wrote:
feos wrote:
We are this submission away from the third empty queue in history, and turska isn't around...
Almost. Metal Warriors got submitted. Does TASVideos break if we have no queue?
I know that some sort of manual intervention by the admins is needed whenever the queue decreases in pagecount, at least from 3 to 2 or 2 to 1. I don't know if 1 to 0 is special.
Editor, Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Player
(44)
Joined: 7/11/2010
Posts: 1022
My own explanation of how the game works: you have to draw a single continuous line that can't cross itself, can only move through the edges of squares (no crossing corners), and for each horizontal row, it either has to go through all the white squares, or all the black squares. (Typically, there are multiple solutions, especially for the exact route of the path, but often also as to which rows you go through the black squares, and which rows you go through the white squares.) You have a one-square-wide border at the side of the screen that has no restrictions on whether you use it or not (but your line still can't cross itself); this gives you some more options, and is often necessary.
I do think the way that this TAS was created is interesting (it's entirely done by a script that solves the puzzles), but sadly, that doesn't really show when watching it. As such, I guess this is destined for the Vault.
Editor, Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Player
(44)
Joined: 7/11/2010
Posts: 1022
Waiting for temp encode. (Also I remember helping out with earlier versions of the script, but I don't think any of my input is involved in this run. So I'm a bit more involved with this than most people.)
I feel that challenge mode would make a better TAS, but puzzle mode is easier to script, at least. Also, this has a fairly good chance of being optimal, unless a faster way to input the puzzles or to do menuing is discovered.
Editor, Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Player
(44)
Joined: 7/11/2010
Posts: 1022
Patashu wrote:
Yes vote. I like how this arbitrary execution glitch is seemingly unlike any other in that it doesn't involve a single item or the inventory screen whatsoever.
It requires the Ether; the glitch move isn't usable otherwise (and IIRC, using a Pokémon Center doesn't work, which is why the run has to go so far out of its way to get an Ether). But yes, it doesn't care about the actual hexadecimal values of the items.
Editor, Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Player
(44)
Joined: 7/11/2010
Posts: 1022
MrWint wrote:
I optimized the encounters even though I saved so much time now that I need to wait before triggering the Transform glitch anyway to progress the in-game time, it would screw with the code execution part otherwise.
Frame rules are always annoying, but this is possibly the most hilarious explanation for a frame rule ever :)
Editor, Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Player
(44)
Joined: 7/11/2010
Posts: 1022
MrWint wrote:
I'm not sure about the procedure of updating the movie file, is the update small enough to simply swap the video files, or do I need to cancel the submission and create a new one?
If it's a small change like that, and you don't think anyone's decision on whether the run is entertaining would be changed by the change, just contact a judge and ask them to swap the input file over for you.
Editor, Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Player
(44)
Joined: 7/11/2010
Posts: 1022
If you do a challenge mode puzzle in two or more strokes, it's likely to be fastest if the last stroke is the only one that clears lines. The length of time it takes for the line-clear animation is really slow compared to just about anything else.
I'm not sure how fast a two-stroke solution is compared to a one-stroke solution. I can certainly believe that for pathological puzzles, it could be faster. However, I also suspect it's likely that it's never faster in practice except when a one-stroke solution is impossible.
Editor, Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Player
(44)
Joined: 7/11/2010
Posts: 1022
feos wrote:
Was it suggested to post tracelog at pastebin.com?
I prefer having it onsite, and it's hidden by default on the submission itself (although not on the forum). So I like the current formatting of the submission notes.
Editor, Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Player
(44)
Joined: 7/11/2010
Posts: 1022
I very much like the way that this run works (although I can't watch it until a temp encode).
I notice it relies on the uninitialized data for the opponent's 5th and 6th Pokémon starting at 0s. Do Game Boys actually initialize to 0s in practice, or is that an emulator issue? It might be necessary to test on a real Game Boy to find out.
(adelikat has brought up on IRC the possibility that they might initialize randomly. If that's the case, it would be possible to do a faster but much less interesting run via luck-manipulating the Game Boy to initialize memory with a working bootstrap program.)
Actually, I like this one because it's clearly not a glitch or unintended, and it's not inconceivable that someone could get it in realtime with enough tries. It's also clearly very difficult to pull off. So it pretty much typifies what TASing is about.
Editor, Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Player
(44)
Joined: 7/11/2010
Posts: 1022
mkdasher wrote:
ais523 wrote:
I believe each area has its own encounter rate. I'm not linking to databases of it for the same reason we don't link to ROMs, but you should be able to find dumps of it if you look around.
yeah I found those encounter rates. But still I can't determine what is the exact formula for wild encounters (rate- depending). I know how it is approximately, and I know some RNG values which always would work, and some of them which would never work, but there are still some of them I'm not sure how they work.
For grass for example, it's as if RNG mod 1600 is lower than 336, then you get wild encounter, if it's higher than 343, you don't, but if it's between 336 and 343, you could get them or not.
No, I meant area as in Route 1, Route 2, etc. Anyway, I just checked; the encounter rate for grass encounters is the same in all the numbered routes except Route 21, where it's lower. (It varies somewhat in non-numbered areas; for instance, Viridian Forest has a lower encounter rate than the numbered routes.)
Editor, Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Player
(44)
Joined: 7/11/2010
Posts: 1022
Personman wrote:
I do see some merit in FatRatKnight's point that all buttons unpressed isn't that special of a controller state. The reason we find it to be special is that it just so happens that all default controllers for all major consoles have this as their resting state, but there's no real reason why that has to be the case.
Not sure if it affects the argument much, but many Nintendo consoles (e.g. GameCube) allow you to change the resting state of the analog stick to be pretty much as far off-centre as you like, entirely via controller input. (This is actually used by unassisted speedrunners on occasion, in order to help pull off glitches.) Also, XBox 360 controllers (among others) also have a nonzero resting state for the analog sticks (it's close to 0, but not 0); games are normally implemented to ignore analog input values sufficiently close to 0 in order to compensate for this. (Sometimes, the game gets the size of the "dead zone" wrong, leading to very frustrating spurious inputs.)
Editor, Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Player
(44)
Joined: 7/11/2010
Posts: 1022
I believe each area has its own encounter rate. I'm not linking to databases of it for the same reason we don't link to ROMs, but you should be able to find dumps of it if you look around.