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Warp wrote:
If I understand correctly, the only way to glitch this game is to corrupt the save game data. Thus assuming that we wanted to rule out glitching to an arbitrary routine in the game as a valid game completion, it would probably be enough to simply rule that, with this particular game, corrupting save data cannot be used to complete the game.
(I assume that this idea will never fly, but I'm presenting it nevertheless, just as food for thought.)
This isn't the only way, it's just the fastest way. You can get a similarly corrupted state by encountering a particular glitched enemy, but you can't do that until over halfway through the game. We even have a video of this, [1700] SGB Pokémon: Red Version "warp glitch" by p4wn3r in 41:02.38; the corruption in memory is produced via the ZZAZZ glitch, rather than save file corruption.
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RachelB wrote:
So at what point do we stop? 20 hearts? 24 hearts? 30 hearts? Additionally, in this particular point of obtaining items in the game, duping hearts would be void because you're not getting all the hearts. You're just picking up the same one repeatedly.
Can't we just stop where ever we happen to end up after getting all of the heart pieces? Whether that's 20 hearts, 70, or 20.25 doesn't really seem like it would matter
I agree here. To expand the analogy with Metroid Prime 2, in that game, most runners actually duplicate collectibles, not as a run around the 100% definition, but because having the extra collectibles early really helps. So if for some reason it's found useful to have more hitpoints than usual, then duplicating heart pieces to increase max HP would be fine, as long as you obtained all the intended heart pieces in the game at least once (which would leave you with more than the usual maximum value).
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The problem is, how do you separate such a run from a run that gains arbitrary control over the game's memory and uses it to, instead of running arbitrary code, rewire the map so that it's possible to walk directly from the start to the end of the game? That would seem to be the "next best" completion, and in fact has happened in the past. I guess it's qualitatively different in that you're only altering the game's data, not its code. (But you could use data manipulation to create a 100% complete save file, for instance, without ever doing anything that counts as normal completion of the endgame.)
If you want a really extreme definition, you could define game completion as getting the game's memory into any state that could be reached via completing the game without memory corruption or running arbitrary code. As in, you have to exactly reproduce something that would be possible without glitches, by using your glitches, and supply a verification movie to match. (This is partly a serious suggestion, partly a thought experiment, and partly just because I want to see a TAS defeat the Elite 4 with an untrained starter. If that's possible.)
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Pheenoh wrote:
ais523 wrote:
In other games where you can duplicate collectibles, like Metroid Prime 2, 100% is normally defined as collecting every item that's meant to count towards percentage, regardless of what the percentage actually ends up as.
You're comparing a game with an actual percent counter to one without.
I know. There are at least two arguments involved here (what items to collect, and what counts as collecting them). In the case of the Prime series, the first argument is solved for us by the game, but the second isn't; and it's the second argument that I'm discussing in the context of OoT, so I think the analogy still works.
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Tool Assisted Longplays definitely exist, and I guess that is one of those.
Speed is a good way to make runs entertaining, but it's not the only way. I know I loved watching one of Miles' Metroid Prime series low%s (probably Prime 2); it wasn't any sort of speedrun (even though it was the record), it was just trying to prove that the category was possible at all. And it was still fun to watch, even though it wasn't very fast.
Seeing it done fast would have been more impressive, though. (If beyond anyone's abilities at that point, and probably still nowadays.)
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In other games where you can duplicate collectibles, like Metroid Prime 2, 100% is normally defined as collecting every item that's meant to count towards percentage, regardless of what the percentage actually ends up as.
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feos wrote:
It's not the screen that matters. The game behavior does. If it behaves after THIS glitched movie the same way it does after a normal gameplay, I see no problem at all.
This is worth checking. The only thing unlocked upon defeating the game in RBY is IIRC the intended route into Unknown Dungeon. Can the resulting save file be loaded, and if it can be, is Unknown Dungeon unlocked?
I guess I consider that the correct place in the code to glitchwarp to is the save just before the credits, rather than the credits themselves.
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Presumably any%. 100% exists in Braid but there's a point where you have to wait for over two hours, and it'd be hard to make that long a wait entertaining. (Alternatively, a 75% that glitches into the 100% ending would be the highest reasonable percentage and potentially interesting, although a bit arbitrary. An any% would glitch into the 100% ending anyway because it's both slightly faster, and allows you to avoid watching a long cutscene.)
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Certainly in realtime runs of Banjo-Tooie, waiting for clockwork eggs is very common. A TAS needs rather more clockwork eggs, but is also in a better position to get them quickly.
I doubt there will be many problems with other items, though.
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OmegaWatcher wrote:
I'll see the movie, but first: isn't that a 100% run?
This is a sensible 100% definition, but when 100% isn't obvious, TASvideos prefers to put the definition that the run uses in the category name. (I tried to look up SDA's 100% definition for Zelda 1, but they don't have one yet.)
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You could probably please everyone at once by making the movie do something unexpected and clearly outside the borders of the game at the end, rather than the fake crash, and having it look the same up to that point (it wouldn't be the same in terms of input, but it could be very similar; I imagine there are easily enough spare frames to start writing a program into memory while everything else is going on). I was a bit disappointed that nothing dramatic happened after the screen filled.
(Also, the length of time it takes to gain total control over the game is a clear speed-based category that these runs can compete in. It's not purely about entertainment; if it were, there'd be no real reason to do it via hacking into a game at all.)
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I think this TAS should obsolete the previous run because it gains control in a much technically better way, which is the important part of total control runs. Given that you can do anything after that, what you do to show you've gained control is mostly irrelevant, it's the start of the run that's the important bit.
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I guess my first response to that is whether it's possible to get enough speed that way to glitch through walls. (Normally you have to climb over them; admittedly, that's probably faster.)
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FWIW, this is more than pi minutes long. 14 seconds is more than 0.14 of a minute, because minutes are 60 seconds long, not 100 seconds long.
And thanks for getting the bootloader so much shorter.
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Radiant wrote:
Isn't a "no powerups" movie similar to a "low%" run?
100% in this run is "all star coins, all exits".
As such, low% would be "minimum star coins, minimum exits". This would be very similar to the warps run, but slightly less entertaining.
Avoiding powerups can be interesting in some games if it significantly changes the route through levels, but not really in this one. The main difference it makes is cutting off the secret exit in 1-Tower that leads to the warp to world 5, meaning a different warp, in world 2, has to be used instead. That's probably not different enough to make the category interesting, and this run doesn't show off much that a 100% wouldn't show.
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Cpadolf wrote:
Everything else should be avoidable by picking up extra missile packs/E-tanks. In Tourian you'd most likely have to kill some but not all of the Metroids.
It might be that you could use recharge rooms instead/as well. They're slow compared to enemy drops, but look a lot less slow when you're comparing them to picking up expansions.
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The improvement is that the old run was done on an emulator that incorrectly emulated lag, meaning that the old run gained frames due to emulator glitch. (It's hard to tell exactly how many, but the submitter estimated it at 101.) The claim is that this run is more optimized because it lost 101 frames due to not cheating but is only 97 frames slower, which would be a 4 frame improvement.
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Ferret Warlord wrote:
My only issue with this is that it seems rather sketchy to use what appears to be a debug feature that was accidentally left in. Merely a stylistic concern.
It wasn't a debug feature. It was added because when playing in a custom level, it's possible to get stuck in a wall or the like if the level designer isn't careful, and the suicide button offered a way to recover. The bug is that the suicide feature isn't disabled in the official levels.
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@Derakon: IMO, in your situation, a TAS that used the teleporter would be acceptable, but a different category from one that didn't. (And quite possibly, the first would be vaulted, and the second mooned; I think technically both could be vaulted, though, because the vault doesn't have a rule against running inferior versions of a game.)
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AUS wrote:
What the heck is with the constant no-death 100% suggestion? Does it come from those who haven't played the game, or am I just missing a big bug or something? (It's impossible. One of the trinkets requires a death)
It's not impossible. That trinket works differently in no-deaths mode (also in time-trial mode).
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I'm interested in a DKL1 TAS, but don't have the time or ability to make one myself. (I might be able to help with routeplanning, but am not even sure if my DKL1 cartridge still works.)
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We hit dlvl 2 at the start of turn 2012. Dlvl 2 and 1 each take 1 action, Earth takes 1 (enexto setup), turning back to air-E form after enexto takes 1, that's turn 2012. Then Air takes 1 action + the turn boundary, and we spend 2 actions (plus 1 recovering from the enexto on Air) on Fire; that's turn 2013. Then Water takes the turn boundary + 2 actions - 1 action (because we glitch an extra action into the turn), but we have to use a polyform that only gets 3 actions per turn; upshot is that we have 2 actions left in turn 2014 as we arrive on Astral.
And so, we end up on Astral with 2 actions left, in natural form. There's no way I know of for completing Astral in 2 actions without help from a turn boundary, so that means winning on turn 2015. What we do on turns 2014 and 2015, though, is currently up in the air.