Posts for ais523


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One thing that strikes me as potentially relevant is trying to avoid moving your characters. In realtime/casual play, you move around frequently to be able to attack enemies from behind. As far as I remember, though, that only affects hit chance, not damage, and thus attacking them from where you are may well save time in needless movement. EDIT: Actually, having watched more of the run, it seems that you got fairly good at this anyway.
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Patashu wrote:
ais523 wrote:
The reason left+right is banned on most speedrunning sites is not that it's impossible, but that doing it tends to cause physical damage to the controller (making it break eventually). It's unfair to make someone keep buying new controllers to be able to speedrun.
I never heard this reasoning before. And it's so pragmatic too! Do you know if this reasoning is listed anywhere on, for example, a www.speedrun.com page?
SDA's rules have this to say:
SDA wrote:
Impossible inputs: Some games, such as The Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past, show unusual behavior when one feeds them with usually impossible input, such as up+down pressed simultaneously. As such actions require worn out controllers, non-standard controllers or excessive force, they are treated as hardware modification and are thus banned as well.
Not quite the same, but it's getting at the same point.
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The reason left+right is banned on most speedrunning sites is not that it's impossible, but that doing it tends to cause physical damage to the controller (making it break eventually). It's unfair to make someone keep buying new controllers to be able to speedrun.
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I'm against this for the same reason I'm against using preinitialized memory: it removes the bandwidth bottleneck of giving instructions to the console. (Yes, I know I invented the DPCM glitch, but that involves tricking the console into polling the controller faster, not basically attaching an external memory card which contains your exploit.) In a sense, a speedrun is about completing the game as economically as possible. By removing the need to optimise the input, you're removing a major part of what makes speedrunning interesting. (More minor but still making things less interesting to me: it also makes the payload simpler.) I don't outright think this is cheating, but I think it's a different category from glitched-any% or any%-ACE, and also a less interesting one; and I'd recommend rejecting it on the basis that it isn't different enough from the glitched-any% for both categories to be worth having on the site.
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Given that this game is mostly autoscrollers (which come to more than 1:43.5 total), given what's unique about Imperishable Night's continue system, and given what I know about they way Touhou numbers endings, I'm going to assume that this is a fastest death or equivalent. Is there anything about the run that shows off notable skill or which would otherwise be different from doing this in realtime?
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Just reiterating that I can't see a reason to ban underflow in vanilla Super Metroid in any%. Note that this may well be different in other games on the engine, and other categories (in particular, I'm very much in favour of banning it as part of the low% category definition). I don't think there should be a particular reason to assume that just because a glitch is allowed in one category, it should be disallowed in another. Disallowing glitches in any% is always going to be arbitrary and contentious, no matter where you draw the line. In other categories, however, you get the most entertainment from choosing a ruleset to set them apart. (I'm reminded of the "no backwards long jumps, no sequence-breaking the overworld" category in Super Mario 64, which is arbitrary but defensible as it leads to a very entertaining run that's notably different from both the any% and 100%.)
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Just to elaborate on my point of view, as it came up: I think this should be published, as it's the first run submitted here that shows off this technique. I also think that almost all noninteractive ACE playarounds are essentially just copies of this one, though (with all previous ACE playarounds being inferior copies); if they aren't using this video playback technique, they should be. So there should probably only be one obsoletion chain altogether for ACE playarounds (with this run as the currently published one). Any other use of ACE for a playaround goal would have to be something that somehow produces an effect that can't be produced via playing back an encode (which likely implies that the ACE itself is interactive or save-persistent).
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My opinion is that a negative overflow on the ammo capacity should be allowed in all categories but low%. The whole point of low% is operating on minimal resources. The point of any% isn't, though; you can do anything there.
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Akagitsune Yukimura wrote:
The Konami code in this game isn't really a cheat as it is more of an easter egg. I felt that using the code to trigger the credits (which can only be done if the "game beaten" flag is true) was the best evidence to show the game was completed as the only other evidence would be to enter a tournament that's only accessible after the main game or to reset and show the changes to the title screen. If I just ended the TAS outside of the game shop it would look like nothing had changed aside from some animations being slower.
I agree in that I don't think using the code invalidates the run, and it's a good way to show to the viewers that the game-complete flag is set. As such, I consider it a speed-entertainment tradeoff; if the run is valid, it's not going to the credits that makes it valid.
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This brings up interesting conceptual problems as to what it means to beat a game. First off, I feel that entering the code to show the credits is just wasting time; entering a cheat code can't contribute to beating a game, so either the game is beaten without the code, or it isn't beaten even with the code. So the question boils down to "does setting a 'the game is beaten' flag count as beating the game?". I suspect that entering a postgame area with a glitch wouldn't count as beating the game, but I'm not sure this is the same (and we've treated the fact that the game enters a postgame state as evidence that the game is beaten before now). I'm currently leaning towards considering this invalid, but I'm certainly willing to have my mind changed, as I'm far from certain.
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I've been talking about the possibility of save-persistent ACE that could allow one console to affect another without an externally attached TASbot for a while (although not in this thread). Now it seems like someone else has had the same idea, and actuallly done it in Pokémon Red/Blue: Link to video As a bonus, they found a "practical use" for it (allowing the gamto send arbitrary Pokémon data to Pokémon Sun/Moon).
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I'm actually beginning to think that ACE is now pretty much complete as a concept, forming a sort of dead end in the space of what you can do with games. The issue is, once you can push arbitrary video and audio through the controller port (and we've now seen that on both the SNES and the Game Boy), there's no point in doing anything else. It doesn't make sense to talk about what you can do with a game when you can so clearly make it do anything. That said, even if this technique makes ACE runs uninteresting from now on, that doesn't mean we shouldn't have at least one run showing it off. So Yes vote for this run.
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I strongly agree with the use of a fresh cart here. Pity that the final boss is so tedious, but that's not the run's fault, but the game's fault. (I stop watching at that point in realtime runs too.) Everything before that was highly entertaining.
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Why did you pick up and throw a shell near the start of 1-4? I can't see an obvious reason, but you had to slow down to do it, so there must be one. EDIT: You did the same thing with a trampoline in 8-1, wasting even more time, so I'm guessing that this increases your movement speed for the rest of the level somehow. Is this what you mean by "Slope acceleration by Shell"?
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Actually, I really like the idea of a TASblock inside the Awful block. It'd be a change, the expectations would be in the right place, and some games are so bad that you can't really speedrun them without tools. (Cheetahmen 2 is the most obvious, as that requires a bunch of luck manipulation to even have a chance of completing the game. However, it cares a lot about uninitialized memory, which is fairly hard to deal with in a console verification.) Note that only the AGDQs, not the SGDQs, have an awful block.
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I've thought for a while that we should be skipping a GDQ some time. The pressure to keep 1-upping ourselves is too much, and a large minority of the watchers are going to be unsatisfied if we don't. Better to give it a break until we can come up with something truly special to impress the easily impressed, whilst also managing to convey what TASing is actually about. (Also, rumours fly every GDQ, regardless of what's actually happening.)
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I know there's been a lot of criticism in here about the video streaming, but I actually think it worked really well. The basic problem is that regular, non-ACE TASes that aim to beat the game have often been received badly at GDQs in the past, especially if they're being played back via prerendered video. Using a SNES as the video player was a good way to trick the general audience into accepting them. I think my main criticism here is that the runs were too fast-paced and there wasn't really time to explain what was going on. Perhaps for a future year it'd make sense to have some sort of luck manipulation demo (maybe an RPG) that's slow enough for the commentary to explain everything that's going on. (I seem to remember there are RPGs or at least categories for which ACE is possible but only halfway through the game, which means that you could explain how the game works, everything that's going on in a regular run, etc., but still come up with a ridiculous ending if you want to.) That said, I fear that any run that really shows what TASing is about will get rejected due to not having the entertainment / donation-pulling levels required. Also worth considering is a TAS versus human race in terms of ILs (or something similar that makes the runs easy to compare); I assume you'd pause the TAS run while waiting for the human to catch up. That'd give a very clear view of what TASing is capable of, because we could see the TASbot do a trick trivially and the human talk about how hard it is, difference in the levels of swag, etc.. It might be worth giving the TASbot a minor handicap (e.g. "all coins" in a Mario game) that slow it down to the extent that the race is actually interesting.
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Voted no for game choice. The final level is fun. The rest, though, felt really unfocused to me, and I didn't really enjoy watching it. It was unclear what the game was going for; it has randomly placed level elements in many cases, as is common in Kaizohacks, but it looked as though the game was intended to be much easier than that. The main issue is that there's no real coherent theme; in most official Mario games level elements are placed out of a sort of realism/place, and in many hacks they're placed as elements of a puzzle to maximise difficulty, and both of those gives the game a sort of consistency that makes it interesting to watch. This game, though, doesn't really have any of that, and it was hard to figure out how difficult its sections were, and often what the levels were even about. The final level stood in contrast to that (other than the boss, which to be fair is tedious even in the original); it did have a sort of coherent theme (fluid motion along corridors), and also made some sort of architectural sense, being only let down by the occasional camera mishap. If there was a TAS of a game full of that, I'd be happy. As it is, though, this run doesn't really entertain.
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With respect to the "underflow" versus "overflow" argument, I'm not even 100% sure it's incorrect to refer to the opposite of an integer overflow as an integer underflow. The opposite of a floating-point overflow is a floating-point underflow, which is presumably where the name comes from. It's not possible to do a negative overflow on floating-point numbers because they have a separate sign bit (you can overflow a negative number, but that's fundamentally the same operation as overflowing a positive number). An integer overflow (at least in two's-complement, which is the case here) is fundamentally different in nature from a floating-point overflow, and there's only one way to produce the opposite of an integer overflow (it's impossible to run out of range in the exponent because integers don't have an exponent). Given that the opposite of a floating-point overflow is a floating-point underflow, quite possibly the opposite of an integer overflow is an integer underflow. (That said, the term "negative overflow" is unambiguous, whereas plain "overflow" is badly misleading.) With respect to the actual use of a glitch, a flow% is different from a low% because it's bypassing the category restrictions via a glitch. The whole purpose of categories is IMO to allow for a range of runs that emphasize different aspects (e.g. a 100% typically shows off a large proportion of the game's world and intended setpieces, whereas a low% typically shows off how to accomplish tasks that are typically easy without the intended level of resources). The purpose of a low% is to complete the game without tools you normally have. Gaining access to those tools via glitch without changing the percentage counter thus changes the general nature of the game. (That said, I'm something of a low% purist: I think low%s should forego any glitches that allow access to normally percentage-bearing items without actually changing the percentage counter. For example, I think that low%s in Metroid Prime 2 should forego the item loss skip, even though the percentage counter would end up higher. I'm aware that I'm in a minority on this matter, though.) On the subject of entertainment, I find this run entertaining precisely because it achieves the impossible. The level of complexity in the tricks that do something as simple as get you from one room to the next is pretty high – higher than anything I've seen before in Super Metroid – and simply being able to observe the route is thus exciting in its own right. The actual gameplay in between is not much different from how Super Metroid typically goes, not that that's a bad thing; however, the gameplay in between the tricks that make the route possible is not the main attraction here. Incidentally, I'm starting to think that we need a way to deal with severe-restrictions runs more severe than this, in which bypassing an intended restriction can take hours, rather than merely seconds or minutes, of repetitive actions. Such runs can still be incredibly entertaining in the routing, so long as you fast forward past the repetitive bits. (In particular, I have Super Mario 64 "100%, minimum A presses" in mind; this is likely to take weeks or even months of realtime, but encodes that skip the boring bits and just show the action are already available and, in my opinion, top-quality TASing/speedrunning content.) I think we probably need some method (perhaps a tier) via which runs can be "compressed in time" in the encode via fast-forwarding or skipping past repetitive sections; the run would still aim for minimum time overall, but the main reason for watching is the fact that it's possible rather than the fact that it's fast, and thus an encode that obscures the passage of time wouldn't negate the reason for watching the run.
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I skipped the repetitive bits. I really enjoyed the rest, especially the bits that were clearly a setup for something (e.g. when Samus goes slowly in the wrong direction). You don't get much of that in platformer TASes.
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I've been reading the NetHack 3.6.1-alpha changelog, and noticed something interesting: "make hurtling out of water bubble on the Plane of Water handle entering water". I haven't tested in 3.4.3, but this seems to imply that an overflow hurtle on Water would work (and given that you can levitate over water in 3.4.3, it seems fairly likely). I can't actually see a way to save time with this but it's a possibility that's worth taking into account; overflow hurtles and enexto both take one action but require some setup; the setup for enexto is normally faster (thus we're using whever possible at the moment) but the setup for an overflow hurtle is more flexible, and thus might allow us to rearrange turns better. Somehow I doubt 2003 will be beatable, but I wouldn't be totally surprised if it's possible to beat the current plan by an action. In other news, I found a fix for part of the endgame plan I was concerned about: if necessary, we could avoid hostile monsters cancelling multiturn actions by turning them invisible. (This implies that we couldn't use monster detection, but that's only there for entertainment reasons; we could remove it if we had to.)
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@Joe: You might want to look up the history of this game in more normal categories. It's the subject of one of the silliest frame wars in the history of the site (with people coming up with more and more tortured definitions of any% in an attempt to complete the game faster). @franpa: It's impossible to get all the animations in the same game without taking moves back (as a consequence of the rules of chess).
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This is true at the level of one indivisible group of threads (which is, incidentally, called a "warp"). Typically that's 16 or 32 threads (at least last time I checked; it's probably more nowadays). However, GPUs can juggle separate pieces of code around in other ways that don't have to obey the SIMT restrictions. Most notably, it can park a thread while it's waiting for a memory access and do some other calculations on its many ALUs while it's waiting for the slow-by-comparison memory controller to catch up. (Modern CPUs can do this sort of thing too, but to a much lesser extent because unlike GPU programs, CPUs don't normally have the benefit of explicit instructions telling them what bulk memory transfer operations will be needed for the future.) There's not an immediately obvious way to use this sort of feature in a standard emulator construction, but it wouldn't surprise me if there were some clever way to do things.
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In reply to DrD2k9: In this case, I think you can make the TASing challenge here considerably more interesting by trying to optimize the run's strategy for speed (which is what almost every experienced TASer here immediately thought of doing; you can see FractalFusion's attempt to optimize it just above, and at least one TASer on IRC didn't understand the concept of not optimizing the parts of your run that aren't part of the category for speed). You said that you see TASing as a puzzle, and that's something I very much agree with; seeing how people solve the puzzle of what they're aiming to do in their run is one of my main interest in watching TASes (and incidentally, the reason why I value good submission text as much as a good run). "How do I set up a chessboard to allow as many combinations of capturing piece and captured piece to occur as fast as possible" is a puzzle, and it's one that doesn't really naturally occur to chess players. As such, it's an interesting puzzle which probably hasn't been fully explored yet. Obviously, the reason why this puzzle is interesting is "about" Battle Chess in a way; in regular chess players have no real reason to care about which piece is capturing (unless the capture places the piece in a position to be captured back again, but that's more about caring about moving to an attacked square than it is about the fact that the move is a capture), whereas in Battle Chess there's an amusing animation that accompanies a capture and depends on the identities of the capturing and captured pieces. The developers most likely intended Battle Chess to model regular chess, and even though the rules are exactly the same, this extra cosmetic feature has changed the motivation of the players (in this case, it's inspired you to attempt to demonstrate something that's completely uninteresting in regular chess, and some other players to try to optimize the demonstration). It's this sort of thing that I'm talking about when I'm talking about going beyond the developer intent; it's adding an angle to the game that the developers likely didn't realise was there. So I guess the reason I'm so taken aback by the run – almost offended, in a way – is that the category choice (of not caring about anything but the cutscene collection, and in particular not caring about the optimization of the route) kind-of negates the idea behind the run. As currently written, the run is about showing off the cutscenes themselves and deriving entertainment value from that; this is something that's fairly clearly placed into the game intentionally by the developers, and an expected way to play. It's also incredibly easy, with no real puzzle involved, to simply see every cutscene (it's an obvious goal for most casual players; it's one of the first things I noticed when I started playing the game casually, well before I came to TASvideos or even knew what speedrunning was, although even then I made it more of a puzzle by trying to do it against the AI with no setting up of boards involved). On the other hand, the puzzle involved in trying to optimize it is fairly interesting, which is why it's so disheartening that you disregarded it. Note, however, that it's only fairly interesting; this sort of run has a tendency to get rejected in practice. A good parallel is this movie, which was the result of weeks of work trying to solve another puzzle that's embedded into a game and probably unexpected by the developers (in this case, what the shortest stroke, in terms of time needed to draw it, is for each of the 100 puzzles included in Polarium; this is something I basically didn't consider while playing the game casually). The puzzle behind this was really interesting, involving multiple different computer search programs to be sure we had the right answer, and I enjoyed working on it even though eventually it turned out that other users had better solutions (and thus my work wasn't part of the final result). The end result, though, simply isn't fun to watch, and was only saved from rejection by the fact that it's technically a 100% speed record and thus allowed in the Vault.
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I have quite a different argument against the category. In general, we consider TASes and TAS encodes to be fair use, because they're adding a lot of value to what the developers designed; the value in a TAS isn't really in things like the game's music or graphics or plot, but rather the way in which the emulated player completes the game (or performs some other goal). TASes aiming for speed often use unusual strategies, glitches, and other things the developers didn't expect. Likewise, tool-assisted playarounds are normally showing off what's possible in the engine and what sort of ridiculous unexpected results you can produce, rather than just a library of easter eggs. The entertainment value from this run is basically concentrated in part of the game designed by the game's developers – it's a showcase of the animations that the game's artists programmed in – rather than anything that comes from the TASer's side. (In fact, its goals intentionally deny any attempt to optimize it; there's not much interest in the strategy used. This seems like a category that *could* lead to an interesting optimization problem: what sequence of chessboards allows for the fastest X-captures-Y moves for every legal combination of X and Y? But by denying this, it's clear that the focus is on the game's assets, not in the strategy.) As such, I'm not at all convinced that this run is legal to encode. Even if it is, it's intentionally denying the spirit that makes a TAS a TAS. (In a way, I'm disappointed that the run is being judged as unentertaining on other grounds, because this is a pretty interesting philosophical question about what makes a TAS a TAS.)